CapnZapp wrote: ↑Fri May 27, 2022 11:40 pmFirst off, we are both experienced roleplayers. When I say there are problems, you can be assured there are.
I am 100% assured that, when you say you have a problem, you are experiencing a problem. What I am not assured is that this is a
general problem. When you give an example, though, we can actually look at it and see what it is. So, kudos for that.
As I said, pretty much every permanent or near-permanent spell is - by a reasonably minmaxing player - preferably cast during downtime. Burn seven points of all three physical stats, and just one week later, you will have gained a +21 bonus to your roll for next to zero risk or drawback.
Per RAW, the max spellburn is 20, so you cannot burn 7 points from 3 stats.
But since you asked for it, here's one example (it's actually just the latest one): Invisible Companion.
Why you'd ever cast this spell "on the fly", and more to the point, how the designers ever envisioned it being cast down the dungeon, I'll never understand.
It takes a full turn to cast, and the results (assuming a not-high caster and no spellburn) are decidedly mediocre.
I have seen it cast "on the fly" down in the dungeon, specifically while running Silent Nightfall, which has its own wrinkles for that decision. But the PCs cast it because they were trying to figure out how to move a massive spherical stone out of a shaft....a problem I have seen solved, but more often is not. Even so, I would think that the casting time makes it likely that the designers
expected it to be cast most often when not in the dungeon (although not necessarily when you know you have 20 days to recover).
At least compared to the obvious alternative - cast it at home between adventures, and unless you roll a 1 on your Spell Check, you're pretty much ensured the 34+ result no matter the circumstances.
With 20 points of spellburn, you can treat the check as a nat 20, which would give a 3rd level character with a +2 bonus to Int a total roll of 30, unless you read that differently than I do. Otherwise, you are rolling with a +25 bonus, meaning that you need a 9+ on the die to reach 34. If you roll a natural "1" one of those points of spellburn is permanent and, sooner or later, you will no longer be able to spellburn 20 points. Each time you are dropped to 0 hp, you also permanently lose a point from your physical stats, and will eventually be unable to spellburn 20 points.
At 3rd level (when you first are able to cast level 2 spells) this companion is so much better than you and your party, there is zero reason for the party fighter to ever go first again, there is zero reason for the party thief to ever climb anything or try to hide and sneak, and so on.
Let's take a look at the text for 34+:
The caster reaches out into the infinite cosmos to call forth the invisible servant most useful to his purposes. This companion appears and pledges permanent service until it is dismissed, killed, or dies of old age (in 2d20+60 years). The companion moves at 150’ and can fly. It is not man-shaped, and although its exact form is difficult to discern, it makes its capabilities known at the time most useful to the caster. As long as the companion is present, the caster can make a Luck check once per week in a dire situation, and on a success it is revealed that the invisible companion has some heretofore unknown ability that is helpful in that situation (judge’s discretion). For example, the companion may be able to pick locks, or create fresh water, or heal wounds. The companion is considered to have ability scores of 22 and can carry as much weight as a large draft horse. It can communicate simple information verbally in the Common tongue. There is a 75% chance that it has some knowledge that is useful to the caster (whether from prior tasks or something from its native plane), provided he asks the right questions. It has AC 23, 11d8 hp, and all attacks against it have a 50% chance of missing due to its invisibility. It can wield weapons at a +9 attack bonus, and its attacks are considered magical.
That is certainly tough, but it is also in keeping with Appendix N literature. It is an open question whether or not the IC can be healed by the cleric, or heals over time away from its native plane, but let's assume that both cases are true. There is no Hit Die listed, which is problematically if the IC can get Critical Hits, but that is not the crux of your issue (as I understand it).
Special capabilities only come up once per week, and are subject to a Luck check, but I would also strongly assume that once an ability is present, it remains present. The judge has discretion as to what those abilities are. The IC is a formidable opponent, and follows instructions given by the wizard it serves.
It is very hard for me to draw any other conclusion than this: nobody in the design team ever even thought about this loophole, and just assumed 34+ results are only achieved by high-level characters, where the maxxed-out invisible companion is playable - at level 9 perhaps it no longer outshines the party members, and against level 9 monsters it properly struggles to bodyguard its wizard master.
I draw the opposite conclusion. This is a game where casting a spell can cause 100 years of winter, or everyone in a kingdom to fall into slumber for decades. The potential exists for a 1st level caster to cast magic missile and do 154 points of damage (or more, if we want to talk about loopholes). The IC only follows orders, and the wizard does not see through its eyes. It only makes a single attack, and that attack only does weapon damage. It is certainly hard to hit and to kill, but it does not gain Mighty Deeds, and it does not cast spells. Although invisible itself, it does not render the party invisible. Nor does it backstab.
there is zero reason for the party fighter to ever go first again
Apart from the warrior not having to follow orders, and being able to judge situations for herself as they arise, you may be right. Because the IC follows the orders given, and those might not be worded as well as the wizard wishes. Apart from the fact that the IC is not both going first
and guarding the wizard, and that not all attacks come from the front. Apart from the fact that there may be more than one opponent. Apart from the fact that the warrior may have ideas of her own as to how to proceed. Sure. So long as the wizard is close enough to the front to give orders to the IC without giving their position away.
there is zero reason for the party thief to ever climb anything or try to hide and sneak, and so on.
So long as the thief never wants to get in position for a backstab, the thief never has reason to want to go somewhere himself, and the party never splits, sure. So long as the PCs are never attacked by numerous foes the thief wants to hide from, sure. But I have to say that my experience from actual play differs considerably from your assumptions.
It seems to me that you are concerned that the spell result, due to spellburn, is OP. Someone once wrote
"I wouldn't say any spell is OP - rather the opposite, that a lot of spells can be OP.
The point? Since DCC is a game where many things can become OP, stop worrying about things that are OP!
"
and I would suggest that the same applies here.
Why? Maybe they used the same reasoning as you did - "while I myself find the Spellburn table unplayably harsh, it serves its purpose of shutting down any criticism spellburn is too cheap outside the dungeon, so we don't have to actually fix a glaring flaw in the system".
That is a beautiful straw man, but it highlights that you either did not read, or did not understand, what I wrote.
This game has gone through a lot of playtesting. You say
Nobody is served by the game being set up like this.
but I, along with others, have been telling you that they are served by the game being set up like this. I
actively like that a caster can use (
not abuse, despite your trying to conflate the two) spellburn during downtime. It is a feature, not a bug.