Cleric spells by level VS Wizard spells known/level limit

[jmucchiello]

Why is this different? Spells know for a cleric far outstrips spells known by wizards and the beta is incomplete without any 2nd or 3rd level cleric spells. Is there any reason why clerics couldn't just have 4/5/7/8/10 spells known with level maximums 1/1/2/2/3 and just make their spells more in line with wizard spells?

Basically, what is the reason for clerics having the old D&D spell charts and Wizards having the cool spell concepts.

[goodmangames]

For a long time I played that clerics had access to all spells of their deity/level. So, basically, a level 1 cleric had access to all level 1 spells.

Given the structure of cleric spellcasting, in the form of a "compounding" -1 penalty per cast, this works out okay. The cleric may have 8 spells but he can only cast a couple before he loses power (considering he's also healing, turning, etc.).

The challenge comes as you play higher level games, and have access to more spells. The higher level spells aren't all transcribed yet so they're not in the beta rules. But when I ran games with level 5 clerics who had access to ALL level 1, 2, and 3 spells, the player was overwhelmed by the sheer number of spell tables they had to flip through...unlike the wizard, who still had a manageable amount.

I'm open to suggestions though if you have a better idea.

[jmucchiello]

They pick a limited number of spells exactly how the wizards do. 4 at first level, and 1 new spell per level.

There really isn't a difference between calling on a patron to cause a metaphysical change to the planet and having a god cause a metaphysical change to the planet from the planet's point of view.

[yfr]

I assume it's intentional that clerics don't have anything equivalent to a "Cure Light Wounds" at first level. It would be a very interesting change if clerics had no ability to heal combat wounds. edit: But of course clerics use "lay on hands" in this system.

In my past D&D experience, clerics were often seen as mandatory party members due to their medical role. If that role were eliminated, I can imagine that many parties would have done without them.

Likewise, if wizards had some ability to function as healers, that would be a big change.

Edit: Duh, I feel silly. I just noticed that clerics have the ability to "lay on hands," and clearly I need to read the rules more closely.

[jmucchiello]

Have you seen how the wizard spell system works? Do you really want a wizard coming anywhere near you when you are injured and turning you into a tentacled and gilled freak like he is?

[geordie racer]

a tentacled and gilled freak like he is?

By high levels I reckon a wizard will be as monstrous as his patron. In fact, maybe that's the secret DCC rpg endgame - becoming a patron, hanging out on yr favourite plane till some no-name gongfarmer summons you back to earth.

[smathis]

I'm open to suggestions though if you have a better idea.

Maybe Clerics don't get all the Cleric spells but a limited subset based on their deity. Like "domains" from 2e and 3e. That could reduce the spells to something more manageable while still giving the Cleric a good degree of flexibility that it would take a Wizard a while to obtain. Wizards still have to find, research and "learn" spells after all.

[GnomeBoy]

I like the sound of Domains. Each spell fits into particular Domains, and each Cleric gets a couple Domains from which to choose spells. Works thematically, lessens bookkeeping at the game table.

[Tortog]

Have you seen how the wizard spell system works? Do you really want a wizard coming anywhere near you when you are injured ...

"No! No,no THANK you good sir. I didn't need that leg any more... it was always tripping me up anyhow."

but, seriously... I like the idea of domains as well, but on the practical side it means there will need to be a section of "universal" spells like "bless." Unless you want to write out a different version for all the Gods {my fingers cramped up just thinking about it...}

Idea: a cleric chooses the number of spheres of influence = the clerics PER bonus. Depending on play preferences, if you wanted to further limit the number of spells known then the cleric can know a # of spells = their PER score... divided over the number of spheres they chose. EX: cleric with 18 PERsonality can choose 3 of their deities spheres of influence and the cleric can learn 18 spells from those chosen spheres. Logic of this is that: while the gods (within their spheres) are unlimited in power... the humanoid mind is not. A vessel will only hold so much before it cracks.

[bholmes4]

They pick a limited number of spells exactly how the wizards do. 4 at first level, and 1 new spell per level.

There really isn't a difference between calling on a patron to cause a metaphysical change to the planet and having a god cause a metaphysical change to the planet from the planet's point of view.

I agree. It works both from a gameplay (less overwhelming, forces players to make choices) and thematic viewpoint for me. To me the difference between wizards and clerics shouldn't be in the basics of their casting system but in the tables, fumble and crit results etc. That way it's very easy to play them out in-game but they retain their own unique flavour.

I also like Domains for clerics (though I tend to create each gods available spell list by hand, it is still a nice starting point or for use in a pinch).