New to OSR and DCC. Changes to the in-game religion system for duty and freedom of conscience.

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freitaslex
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New to OSR and DCC. Changes to the in-game religion system for duty and freedom of conscience.

Post by freitaslex »

Hello everybody. Newbie here. I've been a master since the 90's. Here in Brazil we had official access to AD&D 2E onwards. So before that, everything is new to me. And what wonderful news! I come from a family/church group that has been playing roleplaying games for many years, we are currently playing Pathfinder 2E, so... The desire and curiosity of OSR games entered my heart. In Brazil, for OSR, we have Old Dragon (national OSR RPG, very good, here: https://www.burobrasil.com/produtos/old-dragon/ ), and we have DCC (released here in January 2022). ), and in September 2022 the Old School Essentials will arrive in our sacred land. So I bought the DCC and I'm loving it. The arts, the game's atmosphere, anyway... I still haven't been able to play, I'm trying to convince the players in my group (who are very crispy and like super powerful characters - like in Pathfinder 2E)...
I have a doubt, I hope you understand and respect our vision, we are reformed Christians of puritan tradition, therefore, in our games, we modify a lot the rules and the scenario regarding religions, "gods", and etc... conscience and fear God (we respect those who think differently, but WE are like that), like this, in our home scenario there is only ONE GOD, like Iluvatar from Tolkien's Lord of the Rings, the rest are demons that pose as false "gods", generally worshiped by cultists and malevolent NPCs. In Pathfinder 2E it's very simple to do that, I mean the game mechanics. Do you have any tips for me to be able to enjoy all that the DCC can offer us while respecting our religion and freedom of conscience? I say this because there are a lot of tables in the game that make references to things that make us uncomfortable, but overall and other than that, I've found the game, the arts and the mood of OSR to be wonderful. Really, I need help. Thanks a lot for the tips!
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Re: New to OSR and DCC. Changes to the in-game religion system for duty and freedom of conscience.

Post by GnomeBoy »

I'd be happy to make suggestions, but it's difficult to be specific. Rather than working off of simply "a lot of tables in the game that make references to things that make us uncomfortable", maybe quote a two or three results that are undesirable, and we can suggest on those specifically. That may make it easier to point the way forward...
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Re: New to OSR and DCC. Changes to the in-game religion system for duty and freedom of conscience.

Post by freitaslex »

GnomeBoy wrote: Thu May 19, 2022 7:51 am I'd be happy to make suggestions, but it's difficult to be specific. Rather than working off of simply "a lot of tables in the game that make references to things that make us uncomfortable", maybe quote a two or three results that are undesirable, and we can suggest on those specifically. That may make it easier to point the way forward...
Thank you very much for your answer, I'm sorry I wasn't more specific is that it's actually much more a matter of general principles about how religion works in the game (e.g. the origin of player characters' powers, the chaos system , order and neutrality, the prayers of the clerics and etc), than with concrete cases (in spite of that, it seems that the game, as it was written, REQUIRES that the lines and rules be obeyed on, for example, the need for the cleric to have a god, which in the rules cyclopedia, for example, was much more a matter of philosophy/ideology than religious creed). Well, I'll be more specific, how could I keep the old school style DCC RPG flavor by radically changing the form of religion (e.g. making the scenario monotheistic, implying the existence of only two axes: good and evil) ? Do you have any tips? Note that I would be drastically altering the alignments of the rules: order, neutrality and chaos; for good and evil. Some tips? I hope I was more specific now.
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Re: New to OSR and DCC. Changes to the in-game religion system for duty and freedom of conscience.

Post by GnomeBoy »

I can't think of a case in anything I've run or played in where the polytheism was particularly important (I maintain it more to give players the option that they prefer for the character's deity). I know I don't put too much emphasis on Alignment in DCC or in D&D if/when I'm playing that (the more serious you take it, the sillier it becomes; best to not think about it too much).

You could drop Alignment altogether and play that Clerics are just another kind of Wizard, and I don't think the game would suffer for it. A few spells become pointless... Lay On Hands only has one column of results... Mighty Deeds, Thieves' Abilities, Halfling Luck, and more all remain the same. I'm sure it can be done without much fuss.
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Re: New to OSR and DCC. Changes to the in-game religion system for duty and freedom of conscience.

Post by freitaslex »

GnomeBoy wrote: Fri May 20, 2022 8:26 pm I can't think of a case in anything I've run or played in where the polytheism was particularly important (I maintain it more to give players the option that they prefer for the character's deity). I know I don't put too much emphasis on Alignment in DCC or in D&D if/when I'm playing that (the more serious you take it, the sillier it becomes; best to not think about it too much).

You could drop Alignment altogether and play that Clerics are just another kind of Wizard, and I don't think the game would suffer for it. A few spells become pointless... Lay On Hands only has one column of results... Mighty Deeds, Thieves' Abilities, Halfling Luck, and more all remain the same. I'm sure it can be done without much fuss.
Thanks for the effort to help me, friend. I think the path should lie between what you proposed, namely treating the cleric as a kind of specialist mage, and what I've been doing in the campaign scenario I'm writing, based on Genesis 6, an antediluvian world, where the players are monotheists and villains (NPCs) worship demons. Thanks again for taking the time to try to help me.
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Re: New to OSR and DCC. Changes to the in-game religion system for duty and freedom of conscience.

Post by Bobjester »

In a Genesis antediluvian world, campaign as you suggest above, treat the Lawful and some Neutral patrons as angelic beings that dispense wisdom and miracles on behalf of the Holy Trinity (still monotheist), and the rest of the Neutral and all Chaotic patrons as demons for the villains.

More Zoroastrian than Christian, and not perfect, but it's arguably a step closer. Best of luck figuring out how to work out religion in your games, and may God be with you!
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Re: New to OSR and DCC. Changes to the in-game religion system for duty and freedom of conscience.

Post by freitaslex »

Bobjester wrote: Sun May 22, 2022 9:56 pm In a Genesis antediluvian world, campaign as you suggest above, treat the Lawful and some Neutral patrons as angelic beings that dispense wisdom and miracles on behalf of the Holy Trinity (still monotheist), and the rest of the Neutral and all Chaotic patrons as demons for the villains.

More Zoroastrian than Christian, and not perfect, but it's arguably a step closer. Best of luck figuring out how to work out religion in your games, and may God be with you!
Thank you friend. God bless us all!
I'm a writer, too. I'm really excited to write this scenario I've been developing for a long time: "Genesis 6: Antediluvians". I'm getting a license from Goodman Games to publish rules for the DCC RPG. As I said, this part of religion is very important to me and my group (players who will test in the DCC rules, as we already do in other systems and it's quite fun), because we are Christians of puritanical tradition and we are uncomfortable with polytheism for our players. In our scenario future heroes should ALWAYS be monotheistic, so powers, spells and etc for player characters only come from the Creator, everything else, polytheism, demons, black magic and etc, are resources ONLY for villains (NPCs). Here's a taste of my scenario:

"Centuries before the Creator destroyed the Earth by the waters of the great flood and annihilated the seed of Cain from the world, the mighty city-state of Enoch, commanded by his Emperor-King, the wicked sorcerer Tubalcain, steeped in idolatry, lies and perversion, ravaged the lands of Nod, with his wars of conquest and expansion, spreading fear and the cup of his perversions among men. Only a few of the holy lineage of Seth, men still free, fought to keep alive the pure flame of fear and obedience to the Creator. These were the true heroes of lost antiquity… These were the antediluvian heroes… And these are their adventures and stories, in a fallen and depraved world, where monsters really did exist… And fell from the skies. (Odraude, the Chronicler)".


If anyone wants to make a suggestion, I'm open to ideas. Thank you all.
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Re: New to OSR and DCC. Changes to the in-game religion system for duty and freedom of conscience.

Post by Bobjester »

"At that time, the Nephilim appeared on earth, after the sons of heaven had intercourse with the daughters of man, who bore them sons. They were the heroes of old, the men of renown." - Genesis 6:4

Seems like a Time of Legends worthy of chronicling in the annals of tabletop games to me! 8)

I've been doing some light studying and casual reading of Genesis in the last few months - recognizing the craziness in our own world to find a measure of peace. The above quote from Genesis has continued to spark my imagination for years now.

Then I watched an hour+ long video on youtube about Noah, the Ark and the Flood a couple months back, and it put forth a theory that the world once had one super-continent - Pangea, but this continent was split into the continents we know today by the "fountains of the Abyss" that basically exploded upwards with an immense amount of water that started the worldwide Flood.

To imagine a world so different than ours requires a vast imagination - and you can do this if you are a believer in the Bible or not. Let your imagination take you to a land different than ours.

Were those "heroes of old" our legendary mythical beings Hercules? Zeus? Odin? Thor? Themselves sons of the Nephilim and daughters of man?

How different was the world then? Was there a "canopy" that surrounded the world? What comprised this canopy? Water? Air? A combination of the two? Was the pressure on earth much stronger then, with the upper limits of the atmosphere only a few miles high - but the explosion of the Abyssal fountains enough to burst this protective canopy and expand the upper limits of our atmosphere to its current 9 miles?

The explosion of water (and volcanic plasma, for a lack of a better term for now) blew chunks of earth far out into space - even hitting and marking the Moon!

The total flood of the world wiped away all animals and man, save those on the ark. What was lost to the seas? All animals - monsters and animals - dinosaurs and others, certainly. Of man, what if the legend of the Lost City of Atlantis was based in pre-Flood fact?

Entire swaths of vegetation - forests, even - washed away into the ocean or buried beneath the earth as mountains formed where none were before, mired in mud, lava, and tar...

Post-Flood wonders of the world, like the Grand Canyon - formed by the year-long receding water from the North American continent...

Cenotes and craters formed by large chunks of earth falling back to the world...

All part of an antediluvian prophecy of the end of the world - as they knew it...

Just some scattered thoughts as I go back to bed before going to work tonight. 8)

Peace!
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Re: New to OSR and DCC. Changes to the in-game religion system for duty and freedom of conscience.

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Bobjester wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 10:18 am "At that time, the Nephilim appeared on earth, after the sons of heaven had intercourse with the daughters of man, who bore them sons. They were the heroes of old, the men of renown." - Genesis 6:4

Seems like a Time of Legends worthy of chronicling in the annals of tabletop games to me! 8)

I've been doing some light studying and casual reading of Genesis in the last few months - recognizing the craziness in our own world to find a measure of peace. The above quote from Genesis has continued to spark my imagination for years now.

Then I watched an hour+ long video on youtube about Noah, the Ark and the Flood a couple months back, and it put forth a theory that the world once had one super-continent - Pangea, but this continent was split into the continents we know today by the "fountains of the Abyss" that basically exploded upwards with an immense amount of water that started the worldwide Flood.

To imagine a world so different than ours requires a vast imagination - and you can do this if you are a believer in the Bible or not. Let your imagination take you to a land different than ours.

Were those "heroes of old" our legendary mythical beings Hercules? Zeus? Odin? Thor? Themselves sons of the Nephilim and daughters of man?

How different was the world then? Was there a "canopy" that surrounded the world? What comprised this canopy? Water? Air? A combination of the two? Was the pressure on earth much stronger then, with the upper limits of the atmosphere only a few miles high - but the explosion of the Abyssal fountains enough to burst this protective canopy and expand the upper limits of our atmosphere to its current 9 miles?

The explosion of water (and volcanic plasma, for a lack of a better term for now) blew chunks of earth far out into space - even hitting and marking the Moon!

The total flood of the world wiped away all animals and man, save those on the ark. What was lost to the seas? All animals - monsters and animals - dinosaurs and others, certainly. Of man, what if the legend of the Lost City of Atlantis was based in pre-Flood fact?

Entire swaths of vegetation - forests, even - washed away into the ocean or buried beneath the earth as mountains formed where none were before, mired in mud, lava, and tar...

Post-Flood wonders of the world, like the Grand Canyon - formed by the year-long receding water from the North American continent...

Cenotes and craters formed by large chunks of earth falling back to the world...

All part of an antediluvian prophecy of the end of the world - as they knew it...

Just some scattered thoughts as I go back to bed before going to work tonight. 8)

Peace!
Very good friend! We have similar dreams! I am a writer, in Brazil, and I have been preparing a novel for years, it will be a series, in fact, based on the antediluvian world, the title of the series, most likely, will be Antediluvian Chronicles. I am very interested in this subject and, for me, who believe in the inerrancy and infallibility of the Holy Scriptures, this is a true historical period. I think that a flood, in proportion as the Scriptures show, coming waters from the heavens and the depths of the earth, a veritable cataclysm, destroyed, in fact totally annihilated almost all human culture and technology that ever existed. And I think that there was a lot of human technology at that time, think for example of the full development of the steel industry, yes, because in Gen 4:22 we have the report that Tubalcain manufactured equipment of bronze and iron; we have livestock in Gen 4:20; the music in Gen 4:21; cities in Gen 4:17, finally, not to mention the longevity of human beings at that time! Now, if we can study and learn tanat thing with our superb 80 or 90 years of today, imagine when someone could live for 600 years on average, how much knowledge and technology could be thought, developed and taught, for generations! It is a wonderful world to think about and it is not in vain that, in almost every culture on earth, there is a record of a great civilization that was destroyed by a great flood and that in this civilization the "gods" (fallen angels, demons) and their children (Nephilim) walked the earth... I'm passionate about this subject!
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Re: New to OSR and DCC. Changes to the in-game religion system for duty and freedom of conscience.

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the inerrancy and infallibility of the Holy Scriptures, this is a true historical period
Spoiler alert: it isn't.
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Re: New to OSR and DCC. Changes to the in-game religion system for duty and freedom of conscience.

Post by Father Goose »

freitaslex wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 11:45 am
Very good friend! We have similar dreams! I am a writer, in Brazil, and I have been preparing a novel for years, it will be a series, in fact, based on the antediluvian world, the title of the series, most likely, will be Antediluvian Chronicles.
I would very much like to read your novel series and play your DCC setting.
Please post links to where to find each as they become available.
If you launch a Kickstarter, I will back it.
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Re: New to OSR and DCC. Changes to the in-game religion system for duty and freedom of conscience.

Post by freitaslex »

Father Goose wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 9:15 am
freitaslex wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 11:45 am
Very good friend! We have similar dreams! I am a writer, in Brazil, and I have been preparing a novel for years, it will be a series, in fact, based on the antediluvian world, the title of the series, most likely, will be Antediluvian Chronicles.
I would very much like to read your novel series and play your DCC setting.
Please post links to where to find each as they become available.
If you launch a Kickstarter, I will back it.
Thanks so much for the encouragement, friend. I'll let you know, here, or in other posts specific to the GENESIS 6 scenario for DCC RPG to all those interested in the subject. Maybe I'll create a blog, a kind of development journal for the GENESIS 6 scenario. I'm open to ideas and collaborations in the art and lore texts of the scenario.
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Re: New to OSR and DCC. Changes to the in-game religion system for duty and freedom of conscience.

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herecomethejudge wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 8:58 am
the inerrancy and infallibility of the Holy Scriptures, this is a true historical period
Spoiler alert: it isn't.
I respect your opinion my friend. As for me, I'm just a useless slave of Christ, who likes roleplaying. SOLA SCRIPTURA, SOLI DEO GLORIA, SOLO CHRISTOS, SOLA GRATIA and SOLA FIDE!
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Re: New to OSR and DCC. Changes to the in-game religion system for duty and freedom of conscience.

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freitaslex wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 10:57 am I respect your opinion my friend.
Opinions are statements like, "Grape soda is bad," or "Baseball is entertaining to watch," things that just involve taste or preference, statements that are not objectively true or false but just reflections of a person's subjective feelings. This doesn't apply to facts of history.
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Re: New to OSR and DCC. Changes to the in-game religion system for duty and freedom of conscience.

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herecomethejudge wrote: Sun Jun 12, 2022 8:30 am
freitaslex wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 10:57 am I respect your opinion my friend.
Opinions are statements like, "Grape soda is bad," or "Baseball is entertaining to watch," things that just involve taste or preference, statements that are not objectively true or false but just reflections of a person's subjective feelings. This doesn't apply to facts of history.
As I said, this is just your opinion, and I respect it. You are completely wrong, totally wrong, but I respect your opinion, and your right to say anything you want, even if it is totally wrong, as in this case. God bless you, my friend.
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Re: New to OSR and DCC. Changes to the in-game religion system for duty and freedom of conscience.

Post by BanjoJohn »

I think at this point if any further discussion is to be had, it should be around the use of religion/gods in the context of the game. I personally kind of agree with a general idea that something similar to the catholic "patron saint" idea would be more applicable to a campaign world that uses pantheons of gods. Like... everyone in the world would probably know about and recognize the existence of many or all of the gods, but they'd have their own patron god for their village or family, who they might primarily make sacrifices to, but they might make prayers to specific/different gods for different situations or reasons. Clerics seeking to "convert" people should not be thought of as making them change religion but rather adding their god to the list of patron gods that each person holds sacred to make sacrifices to. And then there would be some people who hold the cause/furtherance of a god above all others, who would be cultists, and the integration of that specific god into society would determine if those cultists are seen as good or bad to the society in which they are operating. Also the goals of that cult determine how they would be seen by others. Maybe they are making things better, maybe they are seen as people who should be stopped.
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Re: New to OSR and DCC. Changes to the in-game religion system for duty and freedom of conscience.

Post by BanjoJohn »

Re-reading your specific OP. I think instead of having clerics worship different gods, you can of course let them all worship the same god, but maybe they represent different sects of the religion or aspects of that god, or have patron saints that they are clerics of under the umbrella of that god. The disapproval system when it requires you to convert people, could perhaps require certain repentances, like hail Mary's or whatever you might have as a puritan equivalent.
You could also maybe make some wizard/elf patrons be saints of that religion, while others could be demons
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Re: New to OSR and DCC. Changes to the in-game religion system for duty and freedom of conscience.

Post by freitaslex »

BanjoJohn wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 8:14 am I think at this point if any further discussion is to be had, it should be around the use of religion/gods in the context of the game. I personally kind of agree with a general idea that something similar to the catholic "patron saint" idea would be more applicable to a campaign world that uses pantheons of gods. Like... everyone in the world would probably know about and recognize the existence of many or all of the gods, but they'd have their own patron god for their village or family, who they might primarily make sacrifices to, but they might make prayers to specific/different gods for different situations or reasons. Clerics seeking to "convert" people should not be thought of as making them change religion but rather adding their god to the list of patron gods that each person holds sacred to make sacrifices to. And then there would be some people who hold the cause/furtherance of a god above all others, who would be cultists, and the integration of that specific god into society would determine if those cultists are seen as good or bad to the society in which they are operating. Also the goals of that cult determine how they would be seen by others. Maybe they are making things better, maybe they are seen as people who should be stopped.
Good placement. Indeed, a close approach to Roman Catholicism seems to be more natural, not least because Roman Catholicism is a mixture of Judaism and Greek/Roman paganism. In historic Protestantism, however, the issue is quite different. It is worth remembering that the creator of the RPG, Gary Gygax, was a Jehovah's Witness.
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Re: New to OSR and DCC. Changes to the in-game religion system for duty and freedom of conscience.

Post by freitaslex »

BanjoJohn wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 1:19 am Re-reading your specific OP. I think instead of having clerics worship different gods, you can of course let them all worship the same god, but maybe they represent different sects of the religion or aspects of that god, or have patron saints that they are clerics of under the umbrella of that god. The disapproval system when it requires you to convert people, could perhaps require certain repentances, like hail Mary's or whatever you might have as a puritan equivalent.
You could also maybe make some wizard/elf patrons be saints of that religion, while others could be demons
Thank you so much again. I have applied something similar to what Tolkien did in his world, as far as religion is concerned: essentially monotheism and angels (good and orderly) and demons (posing as false gods).
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Re: New to OSR and DCC. Changes to the in-game religion system for duty and freedom of conscience.

Post by Bobjester »

freitaslex wrote: Thu Jun 16, 2022 4:14 pm
BanjoJohn wrote: Wed Jun 15, 2022 1:19 am Re-reading your specific OP. I think instead of having clerics worship different gods, you can of course let them all worship the same god, but maybe they represent different sects of the religion or aspects of that god, or have patron saints that they are clerics of under the umbrella of that god. The disapproval system when it requires you to convert people, could perhaps require certain repentances, like hail Mary's or whatever you might have as a puritan equivalent.
You could also maybe make some wizard/elf patrons be saints of that religion, while others could be demons
Thank you so much again. I have applied something similar to what Tolkien did in his world, as far as religion is concerned: essentially monotheism and angels (good and orderly) and demons (posing as false gods).
If I were to implement a monotheist "pantheon" in the game, this is how I would handle it as well. When I started going back to church in the early 90's, my pastor played AD&D, and said he still would if it were Christian faith based.

We talked for hours how to implement the existing AD&D Greyhawk deities as an aspect of Christ or angelic servants - and the opposite for any evil deities. I never did pull the trigger on that, since a campaign wasn't going to happen since we parted ways (regrettably, but amicably) soon after.
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