DCC related stuff I got for XMas...

[cthulhudarren]

Jewels of Carnifex
Punjar, Tarnished Jewel
The Broken Sword, Poul Anderson
Three Hearts and Three Lions, Poul Anderson
Some Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser tales I was missing, Fritz Lieber


I already finished reading Broken Sword, it's a very interesting book! I was inspired to get it by other posts on this forum. In addition to noting that Elves were: dark, uncaring for mortals, had no souls, couldn't touch iron, had witch-sight, I noticed something that I might use for my game. In one line Anderson said that Skafloc didn't use elfish weapons because he couldn't bring his strength to bare with it, so I thought that there should be a max strength bonus perhaps that can be applied with mithril weapons?

Then I wonder how other weapons of the same type did so much damage for trolls and such.

[dark cauliflower]

I liked Three Hearts and Three Lions too. Got that for Xmas. Probably inspired by someone saying it was great. The Elves aren't very nice in it as well. Good stuff.

[dark cauliflower]

hey cthulhuman, since you read The Broken Sword what's your take on the reforged sword in the story? I don't think its quite like stormbringer where it eats souls. But maybe a vorpal blade? Notice how easily it chops of limbs and such? I think it might have an intelligence which we aren't aware of. That or its a curse where you'd have to roll each time you use it to see if it turns against you. I'm not completely sold on DCC's take on every magic sword has a mind. Cursed most likely.

damn, that's a grim book. You might find 3 Hearts and 3 Lions a breath of fresh air after reading it. yeah!

[cthulhudarren]

My take on the sword? Hmmm.

Let's see. Thoughts and questions.

Was it made of iron/steel?
Can be used in one hand... What kind of sword is it, a bastard sword?
Blood must be drawn every time it is drawn.
Increases user's strength and stamina.
Alters mood of the wielder, makes them aggressive and violent.
It cuts through everything like butter. Vorpal seems okay, but it lops off limbs more often. Custom crit table with more amputations would be warranted. Ignores hardness?
It kind of has a mind of it's own, but it's hard to tell exactly how or what... Or how the curse really works.

That's all I can think of right now.

[cthulhudarren]

hey cthulhuman, since you read The Broken Sword what's your take on the reforged sword in the story? I don't think its quite like stormbringer where it eats souls. But maybe a vorpal blade? Notice how easily it chops of limbs and such? I think it might have an intelligence which we aren't aware of. That or its a curse where you'd have to roll each time you use it to see if it turns against you. I'm not completely sold on DCC's take on every magic sword has a mind. Cursed most likely.

I agree with that. Fear no rule of course. I don't plan on making all magic weapons intelligent, but somehow unique and different.

The book was very grim indeed. Don't be looking for happy endings.

Other main take aways from the book...

Witch-Sight... we must find a way to bring it into DCC RPG, but how? Can't make elves and trolls invisible. IT seems it can be permanently bestowed upon humans. It's like a true-sight.

Mithril and damage, the thing about Skafloc being too strong to be able to bring his full strength to bear with elfish weapons... how to do this?

Elves/Elfs are not goodie two-shoes.

Beings of Faerie have no souls, elfs especially. Trolls also. What about Dwarfs and Halflings though?

How about your thoughts?

[VengerSatanis]

In one line Anderson said that Skafloc didn't use elfish weapons because he couldn't bring his strength to bare with it...

Haven't read it, and maybe Anderson makes it clear that he's talking about physical strength. However, why not focus on requiring a certain spiritual strength? Perhaps elf blades are just too baleful for most men to wield? That actually sounds cooler than needing huge muscles to swing Skafloc, doesn't it?

VS

[cthulhudarren]

In one line Anderson said that Skafloc didn't use elfish weapons because he couldn't bring his strength to bare with it...

Haven't read it, and maybe Anderson makes it clear that he's talking about physical strength. However, why not focus on requiring a certain spiritual strength? Perhaps elf blades are just too baleful for most men to wield? That actually sounds cooler than needing huge muscles to swing Skafloc, doesn't it?

VS

It was clear to me that Anderson meant that with Skafloc's prodigious strength, the elfish weapons were too light for him to use his strength to best advantage.

[dark cauliflower]

I almost think that the Elfs intolerance of iron in DCC is too weak and needs to be nastier. When you get to Three Hearts and Three Lions you might see what I mean. I'm thinking that we need to move beyond even amping it up to a +1 to damage elves with iron but creating a iron critical hit table for elves. If they come in contact with iron they should be prepared to lose limbs and stuff by the iron burning through them.

Another thought is that they should be light intolerant. -1 one to all action die when in sunlight perhaps.

Witch sight... how much do you think it would change the game if regular people couldn't see elves and trolls? The good thing about it is that it can be given.

yes, elves are not goodie goodies. I'm sure I've had that perception for a long time because of Dnd and Tolkein. What a shock these Anderson books are.

[Colin]

I almost think that the Elfs intolerance of iron in DCC is too weak and needs to be nastier. When you get to Three Hearts and Three Lions you might see what I mean. I'm thinking that we need to move beyond even amping it up to a +1 to damage elves with iron but creating a iron critical hit table for elves. If they come in contact with iron they should be prepared to lose limbs and stuff by the iron burning through them.

I absolutely love that idea. Either you could create an all-new Iron Bane critical chart (which could be fun) or you could rule that crits by iron-based weapons are actually done on a nastier level of crit chart.

Colin

[cthulhudarren]

I almost think that the Elfs intolerance of iron in DCC is too weak and needs to be nastier. When you get to Three Hearts and Three Lions you might see what I mean. I'm thinking that we need to move beyond even amping it up to a +1 to damage elves with iron but creating a iron critical hit table for elves. If they come in contact with iron they should be prepared to lose limbs and stuff by the iron burning through them.

Sounds like a good idea to me! Or perhaps extra "burn" damage, like a d3,d4, etc, or an ascending burn die for crits.

yes, elves are not goodie goodies. I'm sure I've had that perception for a long time because of Dnd and Tolkein. What a shock these Anderson books are.

Tolkien lied to us!

[cthulhudarren]

It was clear to me that Anderson meant that with Skafloc's prodigious strength, the elfish weapons were too light for him to use his strength to best advantage.

Ideas for this so far....

Elfish weapons do -1d damage for non elves.
Strength bonus to damage is 1/2'd, rounding down.

[beermotor]

yes, elves are not goodie goodies. I'm sure I've had that perception for a long time because of Dnd and Tolkein. What a shock these Anderson books are.

Tolkien lied to us!

Ehh, not quite. I don't think the nordic Alfar were as sinister as the gaelic, which was where Tolkien took his inspiration from. Also, he was very religious, so the whole fall of man bit kind of ties into the way elves are originally immortal, and men's lifespans slowly degenerate over time, like in the Bible. If you think about it, Tolkien's ideas about the degeneration of the races is positively Lovecraftian. (!)

[dark cauliflower]

I almost think that the Elfs intolerance of iron in DCC is too weak and needs to be nastier. When you get to Three Hearts and Three Lions you might see what I mean. I'm thinking that we need to move beyond even amping it up to a +1 to damage elves with iron but creating a iron critical hit table for elves. If they come in contact with iron they should be prepared to lose limbs and stuff by the iron burning through them.

Sounds like a good idea to me! Or perhaps extra "burn" damage, like a d3,d4, etc, or an ascending burn die for crits.

yes, elves are not goodie goodies. I'm sure I've had that perception for a long time because of Dnd and Tolkein. What a shock these Anderson books are.

Tolkien lied to us!

hmm, I do like the burn die idea. The problem I see with not having an iron critical hit table is that we lose the real intense visualisation that I've seen in the Anderson books. The stuff can cut through elves and trolls like butter. An extra d3 of d7 isn't quite the same as: "the iron burns through your left arm. It falls to the ground leaving a burnt stump, smoking in a hellish reaction".

I don't know about Tolkein, but I think that Gygax did. He's the one that explicitly put the good in the elf as far as I can tell.

[dark cauliflower]

one thing also to consider is if the "White Christ" should play a part as well. In both Anderson books, the "White Christ" appears as something that has awful consequences for creatures of Faerie. Do we want a "White Christ" god in the game that can be used against the Elves? I suppose its a good instance of clerical turning of what is considered unholy. Though I have to wonder how much of DCC would be considered unholy by the "White Christ"ers? But then again, the power of the "White Christ" does not appear to be limited to Clerics in the books...

[smathis]

I almost think that the Elfs intolerance of iron in DCC is too weak and needs to be nastier. When you get to Three Hearts and Three Lions you might see what I mean. I'm thinking that we need to move beyond even amping it up to a +1 to damage elves with iron but creating a iron critical hit table for elves. If they come in contact with iron they should be prepared to lose limbs and stuff by the iron burning through them.

Instead of their own critical hit table, I'd take a simpler approach. Any iron blade or arrowhead that hits an elf automatically does a Critical Hit on Table III.

Basically, if iron can pierce their skin, an Elf takes a crit from the stabby/slashy chart that Thieves use.

Another thought is that they should be light intolerant. -1 one to all action die when in sunlight perhaps.

This and the iron thing are more than enough to counter-balance the Witchsight advantage, IMO. Additionally, I'd lower their Hit Die to d4 and scale back the spells they could cast and maybe Max Caster Level.

Witch sight... how much do you think it would change the game if regular people couldn't see elves and trolls? The good thing about it is that it can be given.

A couple of ways this could be approached. But here is probably how I'd do it. First off, the Elf is "there" but a human's awareness of the Elf would not be active. This would allow the Elf to do a Luck roll versus a human's Will save to determine if the human "notices" that the Elf is there. If a human does take notice of the Elf's or an Elf's presence, then the Elf shouldn't be able to become unnoticed again in that scene or encounter without fleeing or disengaging or something.

This would allow high level PCs to just be aware of Elves. But 0-Level humans wouldn't. How the human mind processes the Elf's presence would differ. Maybe the Elf really is invisible to the human. Or maybe the Elf is visible but the human's mind processes it as just a random person... not an Elf.

In all cases, if the Elf interacts with the human in any way or attacks the human, the human becomes immediately aware of the Elf. The Elf should also be able to become "noticed" by dropping this ability at will.

As an offset, I might make certain types of monsters drawn to the Elves. Things like Orcs, Goblins and Trolls. Make it so they innately sense an Elf's presence -- even from a room or two away -- and are drawn to kill it.

I think that would be a useful ability that would be fun in a game. But not terribly imbalancing. And would prevent the Elf from stepping on the Thieves' toes too much.

For one, the Elf's ability is innate and never improves. While a Thief's bonus to Hide in Shadows bumps up every level.

[Raven_Crowking]

Brilliant stuff, smathis!

[GnomeBoy]

Brilliant stuff, smathis!

Well, yes. He is the genius behind TA...

[dark cauliflower]

I almost think that the Elfs intolerance of iron in DCC is too weak and needs to be nastier. When you get to Three Hearts and Three Lions you might see what I mean. I'm thinking that we need to move beyond even amping it up to a +1 to damage elves with iron but creating a iron critical hit table for elves. If they come in contact with iron they should be prepared to lose limbs and stuff by the iron burning through them.

Instead of their own critical hit table, I'd take a simpler approach. Any iron blade or arrowhead that hits an elf automatically does a Critical Hit on Table III.

Basically, if iron can pierce their skin, an Elf takes a crit from the stabby/slashy chart that Thieves use.

I'm looking at the Critical 3 table on page 84. While I am a fan of reusing things I don't think this table works with the criticals we see in Anderson's books. None of these effects seem to do what iron does to elves in em. I'd want critical effects that replicate Anderson's effects. Remember Iron Burns elves in these books. It has a unique effect upon them.

Am I looking at the right table?

[cthulhudarren]

Remember Iron Burns elves in these books. It has a unique effect upon them.

And the same for trolls.

[dark cauliflower]

that's right. Not Dwarfs though.

cthulhuguy, to get back to your question way back, I don't think that the Broken Sword was made out of iron. Here's my simple reasoning:
1. Illrede the Troll king was killed by the Broken Sword.
2. As Scafloc was choping him up with the sword, there didn't seem to be any iron side effect burns.

It was made by a Jotunheim giant, we do not know what kind of materials he had available in that mythical land. Also, did not the Elves touch it when they hid it away?

[cthulhudarren]

that's right. Not Dwarfs though.

cthulhuguy, to get back to your question way back, I don't think that the Broken Sword was made out of iron. Here's my simple reasoning:
1. Illrede the Troll king was killed by the Broken Sword.
2. As Scafloc was choping him up with the sword, there didn't seem to be any iron side effect burns.

It was made by a Jotunheim giant, we do not know what kind of materials he had available in that mythical land. Also, did not the Elves touch it when they hid it away?

I'm inclined to think it was iron(steel?). I think the elves had servants hide it away. They did not touch it. I don't understand what Illrede being killed by it matters. Of course I could be wrong.

[dark cauliflower]

because Illrede was a troll! You should be seeing the same sizzling reaction with the sword as with any iron weapon. Illrede had his arms and head chopped off and there wasn't any burning. No burn, no iron.

[cthulhudarren]

because Illrede was a troll! You should be seeing the same sizzling reaction with the sword as with any iron weapon. Illrede had his arms and head chopped off and there wasn't any burning. No burn, no iron.

Maybe the author just didn't mention the burning, as the decapitations and such were descriptive enough? Or could it be something else, like steel?

[dark cauliflower]

I think he would have put it in there. Its probably made of something we don't know of. The only person they knew who could put it back together was the giant. They couldn't go to the dwarfs who knew how to and could work with iron.

doesn't steel have iron in it? Its been awhile since I read about the alloy.

[cthulhudarren]

I think he would have put it in there. Its probably made of something we don't know of. The only person they knew who could put it back together was the giant. They couldn't go to the dwarfs who knew how to and could work with iron.

doesn't steel have iron in it? Its been awhile since I read about the alloy.

Yes Steel has iron in it. Maybe it was adamantine! Or unobtainium.