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 Post subject: Two Weapon Fighting
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:51 am 
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So am I interpretting things correctly on this? If I am using two weapons, I get two attacks per Action Die, so when I get a second AD, I would get 4 attacks? If so, would you allow a character to take two attacks with their first AD and a single attack with the second one?


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 Post subject: Re: Two Weapon Fighting
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:26 am 
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I would have to revisit the wording of the rulebook, but I would tend to think that two-weapon fighting gives you one extra attack per round, not per action die. If your action dice are d20 + d16, then even with a pretty good agility, you're not going to get much mileage out of that second action die unless it's considered independent of the two-weapon fighting.

I suppose you might give the player a choice.

d20 (single-weapon fighting) + d16 (additional attack die)

(d16 + d16) (two-weapon fighting) + d16 (additional attack die)

(d16 + d16) (two-weapon fighting) + (d14 + d 14) (additional attack die, split for TWF)


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 Post subject: Re: Two Weapon Fighting
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:44 am 
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You're forgetting the deed die, Bilgewriggler. Dual wielding on the secondary action die is perfectly viable (particularly as a warrior), because you'll have a d7 to go along with the d14 (stepped down to at least a d12 for dual wielding, assuming high agility). You can still hit a good many target ACs, and might be even more potent given the deeds you could be doing. Assuming a decent initiative result, which isn't a bad assumption because you're probably only dual wielding if you have a high agility, the 5th level warrior starts to look sort of like a Drizz't-like blender o' bladed death... except with deeds! E.g., called shots on first action dice, defensive deed on secondary action dice, rinse-repeat.

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RoM pbp:
Hamun Ry (Wiz 4)
Str 10 Agi 15 (+1) Sta 11 Per 11 Int 17 (+2) Luc 10 (Unholy House). Align: C. AC: 14. HP: 13. Melee +1, Ranged +2. Crit: d8, I. Save: Ref +5, Fort +3, Will +4.
Spells: 1: Choking Cloud, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic (odd crystal growths), Magic Missile (mirror images), Runic Alphabet (Mortal) (ravenously hungry), Ventriloquism (rain of frogs)
2: Detect Invisible, Levitate (extremely difficult, d14), Mirror Image (20% chance to raise/lower luck by 1d3 points).
Equip: Ring of the Sand Djinn: +2 AC/saves, Invisibility for 1min/spellburn point, or unmake for great, unknown effect. Padded Armor, Longsword, Longbow, quiver w/20 steel-tipped arrows, 10 silver-tipped arrows, backpack, spellbook, quill and ink, sturdy parchment (10 sheets), 5 days rations, high leather boots, belt w/ belt pouch, gray robe, dark gray hooded cloak. Also carries 3 small mechanical toys: wind-up mouse, wooden puzzle cube, small jewelry box that plays a little tune.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Weapon Fighting
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:51 am 
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Location: Cube Farm of Alien Geometry
No crits allowed though per RAW. Sure might hit alot though at high levels.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Weapon Fighting
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:55 pm 
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Dual wielding longswords, the lack of crits ain't gonna matter, I don't think. Well, I guess as you go up in level, the crits get better. So I guess you can just pretend the called shots are crits. :-)

Or go Full Conan and use a two-hander.

_________________

RoM pbp:
Hamun Ry (Wiz 4)
Str 10 Agi 15 (+1) Sta 11 Per 11 Int 17 (+2) Luc 10 (Unholy House). Align: C. AC: 14. HP: 13. Melee +1, Ranged +2. Crit: d8, I. Save: Ref +5, Fort +3, Will +4.
Spells: 1: Choking Cloud, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic (odd crystal growths), Magic Missile (mirror images), Runic Alphabet (Mortal) (ravenously hungry), Ventriloquism (rain of frogs)
2: Detect Invisible, Levitate (extremely difficult, d14), Mirror Image (20% chance to raise/lower luck by 1d3 points).
Equip: Ring of the Sand Djinn: +2 AC/saves, Invisibility for 1min/spellburn point, or unmake for great, unknown effect. Padded Armor, Longsword, Longbow, quiver w/20 steel-tipped arrows, 10 silver-tipped arrows, backpack, spellbook, quill and ink, sturdy parchment (10 sheets), 5 days rations, high leather boots, belt w/ belt pouch, gray robe, dark gray hooded cloak. Also carries 3 small mechanical toys: wind-up mouse, wooden puzzle cube, small jewelry box that plays a little tune.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Weapon Fighting
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 1:56 pm 
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Posts: 1200
Location: Atlanta, GA
Also,


THIS CONVERSATION IS TOTALLY NOT MINMAXING. :oops:

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RoM pbp:
Hamun Ry (Wiz 4)
Str 10 Agi 15 (+1) Sta 11 Per 11 Int 17 (+2) Luc 10 (Unholy House). Align: C. AC: 14. HP: 13. Melee +1, Ranged +2. Crit: d8, I. Save: Ref +5, Fort +3, Will +4.
Spells: 1: Choking Cloud, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic (odd crystal growths), Magic Missile (mirror images), Runic Alphabet (Mortal) (ravenously hungry), Ventriloquism (rain of frogs)
2: Detect Invisible, Levitate (extremely difficult, d14), Mirror Image (20% chance to raise/lower luck by 1d3 points).
Equip: Ring of the Sand Djinn: +2 AC/saves, Invisibility for 1min/spellburn point, or unmake for great, unknown effect. Padded Armor, Longsword, Longbow, quiver w/20 steel-tipped arrows, 10 silver-tipped arrows, backpack, spellbook, quill and ink, sturdy parchment (10 sheets), 5 days rations, high leather boots, belt w/ belt pouch, gray robe, dark gray hooded cloak. Also carries 3 small mechanical toys: wind-up mouse, wooden puzzle cube, small jewelry box that plays a little tune.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Weapon Fighting
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:25 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:14 am
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Location: Cube Farm of Alien Geometry
beermotor wrote:
Also,


THIS CONVERSATION IS TOTALLY NOT MINMAXING. :oops:


Yes it is. Which means my group would totally try it. I would not allow crits though, as you said as you go up in level crits get awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Weapon Fighting
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 1:17 pm 
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Posts: 78
I was half-forgetting the deed die and half-ignoring it because at higher levels you're probably fighting stuff with higher armor classes, so you need the bigger deed die to be able to hit.

Although of course not interested in min-maxing at all, I decided to make a spreadsheet to calculate the probabilities of hitting with TWF and without at various levels. Basically, the result was this: for an armor class that you can hit with a d16, you're always better off dual wielding. In other words, at 1st level, for AC 10-16, a warrior with a d3 deed die has a better chance of landing at least one blow if dual wielding than if fighting one-handed. And since you crit on a 16, you actually have a better chance of critting than if you're single-wielding.

Once you cross that AC 16 line, though, you basically never want to dual wield, as it absolutely kills your chance of hitting.

The basic pattern holds true at higher levels too, though I didn't factor into my calculations the line from the rules that says dual-wielding reduces your off-hand deed die as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Weapon Fighting
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:39 am 
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Hey I'd be interested in seeing your spreadsheet. Can you post it?

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RoM pbp:
Hamun Ry (Wiz 4)
Str 10 Agi 15 (+1) Sta 11 Per 11 Int 17 (+2) Luc 10 (Unholy House). Align: C. AC: 14. HP: 13. Melee +1, Ranged +2. Crit: d8, I. Save: Ref +5, Fort +3, Will +4.
Spells: 1: Choking Cloud, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic (odd crystal growths), Magic Missile (mirror images), Runic Alphabet (Mortal) (ravenously hungry), Ventriloquism (rain of frogs)
2: Detect Invisible, Levitate (extremely difficult, d14), Mirror Image (20% chance to raise/lower luck by 1d3 points).
Equip: Ring of the Sand Djinn: +2 AC/saves, Invisibility for 1min/spellburn point, or unmake for great, unknown effect. Padded Armor, Longsword, Longbow, quiver w/20 steel-tipped arrows, 10 silver-tipped arrows, backpack, spellbook, quill and ink, sturdy parchment (10 sheets), 5 days rations, high leather boots, belt w/ belt pouch, gray robe, dark gray hooded cloak. Also carries 3 small mechanical toys: wind-up mouse, wooden puzzle cube, small jewelry box that plays a little tune.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Weapon Fighting
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 7:11 am 
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Location: Cube Farm of Alien Geometry
Bilgewriggler wrote:
And since you crit on a 16, you actually have a better chance of critting than if you're single-wielding.


You do not crit on a 16 on a d16.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Weapon Fighting
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 8:17 am 
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cthulhudarren wrote:
You do not crit on a 16 on a d16, unless you are a Halfling.

Fixed that for you. :wink:

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Gnome Boy (a.k.a. "Jon") • DCC play-tester @ DDC 35, Feb 2011. • Beta DL 2111, 7:00 AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since 1977 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters - Holds the power to play gnomes at will!

Here Be DCC Monsters...

General Yoros, Warrior, Str 13, Agl 8 (10), Stm 17, Per 13, Int 11, Lck 8; Law, HP 39, AC 17, R+2, F+4, W+2, band/shld, warhammer, longsword, longbow, pitchfork

Han Dee, (Weaver) Neutral Thief, Str 10, Agi 13, Stm 11, Per 11, Int 15, Lck 14, AC 13 (Leather), HP 25, Luck Die d6, Backstab 3, Sneak Silently 10, Hide In Shadows 9, Pick Pocket 10, Climb Sheer 10, Pick Lock 9, Find Trap 9, Disable Trap 9, Forge Doc 10, Disguise 3, Read Lang 5, Handle Poison 3, Cast Scroll d14+2, birth augur (Born under the loom) +1 to all skill checks (including thief skills), Banepicks (auto pick lock/disable trap, but lose 1d3 random ability loss, if a 3 then 1 pt is perm)


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 Post subject: Re: Two Weapon Fighting
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 8:36 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:14 am
Posts: 456
Location: Cube Farm of Alien Geometry
GnomeBoy wrote:
cthulhudarren wrote:
You do not crit on a 16 on a d16, unless you are a Halfling.

Fixed that for you. :wink:


Yes! I was just trying to help discourage warriors from power gaming.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Weapon Fighting
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:15 pm 
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Posts: 78
cthulhudarren wrote:
Bilgewriggler wrote:
And since you crit on a 16, you actually have a better chance of critting than if you're single-wielding.


You do not crit on a 16 on a d16.

A 16 is not an auto-hit for non-halflings, but it is a crit if you hit.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Weapon Fighting
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:31 pm 
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Location: Cube Farm of Alien Geometry
Bilgewriggler wrote:
cthulhudarren wrote:
Bilgewriggler wrote:
And since you crit on a 16, you actually have a better chance of critting than if you're single-wielding.


You do not crit on a 16 on a d16.

A 16 is not an auto-hit for non-halflings, but it is a crit if you hit.


For halflings only. Otherwise you need a very high agility.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Weapon Fighting
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:08 pm 
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cthulhudarren wrote:

For halflings only. Otherwise you need a very high agility.

So we're both right! :)


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 Post subject: Re: Two Weapon Fighting
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:34 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:14 am
Posts: 456
Location: Cube Farm of Alien Geometry
Bilgewriggler wrote:
cthulhudarren wrote:

For halflings only. Otherwise you need a very high agility.

So we're both right! :)


Always!


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 Post subject: Re: Two Weapon Fighting
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:22 pm 
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Okay so minmax me this, bros.

Character with 17 Strength, 18 Agility. Very likely to choose Warrior at level 1, although Cleric or Wizard or Thief are all possibilities. Charmed House was his Lucky Roll, and he has a 13 Luck, so base AC is 14 (!). So the question is, to dual wield or not to dual wield... if he doesn't dual wield, it seems like a two-handed battle axe or two-handed sword is the best way to go, but maybe a pole arm of some kind wouldn't suck, for reach purposes?

Or, hold a javelin / spear in each hand... throw them both on round one, then whip out the two-handed sword off the back and melee... ?

I suppose there's another possibility: could be a ranged-weapon type guy. But I would think he'd want to throw stuff, versus shoot bows or crossbows, because of the nice Strength bonus.

So what's the best option for him? Also, what's got the most Appendix N style? (The latter question has me leaning away from dual wielding, frankly, and towards a two-handed sword.)

_________________

RoM pbp:
Hamun Ry (Wiz 4)
Str 10 Agi 15 (+1) Sta 11 Per 11 Int 17 (+2) Luc 10 (Unholy House). Align: C. AC: 14. HP: 13. Melee +1, Ranged +2. Crit: d8, I. Save: Ref +5, Fort +3, Will +4.
Spells: 1: Choking Cloud, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic (odd crystal growths), Magic Missile (mirror images), Runic Alphabet (Mortal) (ravenously hungry), Ventriloquism (rain of frogs)
2: Detect Invisible, Levitate (extremely difficult, d14), Mirror Image (20% chance to raise/lower luck by 1d3 points).
Equip: Ring of the Sand Djinn: +2 AC/saves, Invisibility for 1min/spellburn point, or unmake for great, unknown effect. Padded Armor, Longsword, Longbow, quiver w/20 steel-tipped arrows, 10 silver-tipped arrows, backpack, spellbook, quill and ink, sturdy parchment (10 sheets), 5 days rations, high leather boots, belt w/ belt pouch, gray robe, dark gray hooded cloak. Also carries 3 small mechanical toys: wind-up mouse, wooden puzzle cube, small jewelry box that plays a little tune.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Weapon Fighting
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:46 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:14 am
Posts: 456
Location: Cube Farm of Alien Geometry
beermotor wrote:
Okay so minmax me this, bros.

Character with 17 Strength, 18 Agility. Very likely to choose Warrior at level 1, although Cleric or Wizard or Thief are all possibilities. Charmed House was his Lucky Roll, and he has a 13 Luck, so base AC is 14 (!). So the question is, to dual wield or not to dual wield... if he doesn't dual wield, it seems like a two-handed battle axe or two-handed sword is the best way to go, but maybe a pole arm of some kind wouldn't suck, for reach purposes?

Or, hold a javelin / spear in each hand... throw them both on round one, then whip out the two-handed sword off the back and melee... ?

I suppose there's another possibility: could be a ranged-weapon type guy. But I would think he'd want to throw stuff, versus shoot bows or crossbows, because of the nice Strength bonus.

So what's the best option for him? Also, what's got the most Appendix N style? (The latter question has me leaning away from dual wielding, frankly, and towards a two-handed sword.)


I'd check for loaded dice! I'd lean towards dual wielding with that agility. Or dual hand axes, so they can be thrown. Just not scimitars. Not ever.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Weapon Fighting
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:08 pm 
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beermotor wrote:
Also, what's got the most Appendix N style? (The latter question has me leaning away from dual wielding, frankly, and towards a two-handed sword.)


Dual-wielding is very much part of Appendix N. Just look at Fritz Leiber's Lankhmar work for one example (both Fafhrd and Gray Mouser routinely dual-wielded, Fafhrd with a long sword and dagger or hand axe, Mouser with sabre and dagger). We just tend to have developed an allergy to it because of the hideous tales of a dual-scimitar-wielding dark elf who was constantly using, "his innate drow powers", and the number of godawful creatively-challenged copycat players that sprang up thereafter.

Colin


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 Post subject: Re: Two Weapon Fighting
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:41 pm 
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But... but... CONAN.

So, theoretically, since w/ 18 Agility he'd crit as normal on the primary weapon, I guess there's no "game benefit" to be gained from wielding a two-hander. Unless he happens to come across a particularly badass one.

Longsword / Javelins looks like a great combo, actually. Maybe I should rename this character Achilles. 3 or 4 javelins in a quiver on his back, can be thrown at start of combat, then draw another for melee to use as offhand. I'm guessing javelin would qualify as a "light" weapon similar to a dagger/handaxe/shortsword?

_________________

RoM pbp:
Hamun Ry (Wiz 4)
Str 10 Agi 15 (+1) Sta 11 Per 11 Int 17 (+2) Luc 10 (Unholy House). Align: C. AC: 14. HP: 13. Melee +1, Ranged +2. Crit: d8, I. Save: Ref +5, Fort +3, Will +4.
Spells: 1: Choking Cloud, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic (odd crystal growths), Magic Missile (mirror images), Runic Alphabet (Mortal) (ravenously hungry), Ventriloquism (rain of frogs)
2: Detect Invisible, Levitate (extremely difficult, d14), Mirror Image (20% chance to raise/lower luck by 1d3 points).
Equip: Ring of the Sand Djinn: +2 AC/saves, Invisibility for 1min/spellburn point, or unmake for great, unknown effect. Padded Armor, Longsword, Longbow, quiver w/20 steel-tipped arrows, 10 silver-tipped arrows, backpack, spellbook, quill and ink, sturdy parchment (10 sheets), 5 days rations, high leather boots, belt w/ belt pouch, gray robe, dark gray hooded cloak. Also carries 3 small mechanical toys: wind-up mouse, wooden puzzle cube, small jewelry box that plays a little tune.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Weapon Fighting
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:30 pm 
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I'd allow a javelin as a Light weapon (1d6 damage the same as a short sword).

Colin


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 Post subject: Re: Two Weapon Fighting
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:10 pm 
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You're getting ahead of yourself. Based on my group's experiences with great fresh-rolled characters, that guy's going to die with 9 xp in the last scene of the funnel.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Weapon Fighting
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:36 pm 
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Nah. We've got some level 1s already. He should survive to 1. After that is probably up in the air. He's definitely got a big dose of the paladin archetype. We'll see if he can measure up.

_________________

RoM pbp:
Hamun Ry (Wiz 4)
Str 10 Agi 15 (+1) Sta 11 Per 11 Int 17 (+2) Luc 10 (Unholy House). Align: C. AC: 14. HP: 13. Melee +1, Ranged +2. Crit: d8, I. Save: Ref +5, Fort +3, Will +4.
Spells: 1: Choking Cloud, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic (odd crystal growths), Magic Missile (mirror images), Runic Alphabet (Mortal) (ravenously hungry), Ventriloquism (rain of frogs)
2: Detect Invisible, Levitate (extremely difficult, d14), Mirror Image (20% chance to raise/lower luck by 1d3 points).
Equip: Ring of the Sand Djinn: +2 AC/saves, Invisibility for 1min/spellburn point, or unmake for great, unknown effect. Padded Armor, Longsword, Longbow, quiver w/20 steel-tipped arrows, 10 silver-tipped arrows, backpack, spellbook, quill and ink, sturdy parchment (10 sheets), 5 days rations, high leather boots, belt w/ belt pouch, gray robe, dark gray hooded cloak. Also carries 3 small mechanical toys: wind-up mouse, wooden puzzle cube, small jewelry box that plays a little tune.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Weapon Fighting
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 6:40 pm 
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beermotor wrote:
Nah. We've got some level 1s already. He should survive to 1.


Famous last words! :lol:

I am certainly rooting for you, although the dice will always fall where they may..... :D

_________________
SoBH pbp:

Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.


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 Post subject: Re: Two Weapon Fighting
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 10:01 pm 
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Posts: 525
beermotor wrote:
Okay so minmax me this, bros. <snip>
I think the answer is simple: carry as many weapons with different uses as the Judge will allow and use the one that is best for the situation:

Bunch of "mooks" - dual wield and take out 2 an action.
One big nasty - keep at range, you are more accurate and you don't want to let it take your super-dude away so easily.
Tricky terrain - probably a good time for that pole-arm.
Narrow cave - this is why you always carry a dagger or spear.
Under water - spears are great here too.
A horde of competent warrior types or beasts - and you pack a shield, too.


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