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 Post subject: Please review my Monk class
PostPosted: Sun May 27, 2012 11:28 pm 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer

Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:44 pm
Posts: 12
One of my players would like to have the option to play the classic Monk.
I took a try at creating one, tossing most of the magical-like abilities. I did not want to step on the warrior, so this monk has lower hit die, does not have the threat range or init bonus, also the trained weapons list was pared down.

Feedback would be appreciated. :D

Monk:

Hit Points:
A monk gains 1d8 hit points at each level.

Alignment:
A monk can only be Neutral.

Weapon training:
A monk is trained in the following weapons: blowgun, longbow, shortbow, dagger, dart, longsword, short sword, sling, and staff.

Armor:
When not wearing armor, a monk's armor class equals the monk's Agility score (do not include the modifier) + Class Level. Monks may wear any armor but they no longer benefit from this talent and may also suffer armor check penalties.

Attack (Deed Die)/Crit Die & Table/Action Dice/Saving Throws:
Monks share the same class abilities per the Warrior class on table 1-10; Monks do not share the threat range from this table. A monk always uses their action dice for attacks. At 5th level, a monk gains a second attack each round with his second action die per table 1-10.

Mighty Deeds:
A monk may perform Mighty Deeds as per a warrior.
Monk Weapon Specific Deed (also considered the monk's "default" deed if not declared as per pg. 93) is Unarmed Combat as per below:
• Unarmed attacks can be considered non-subdual (Monk's Choice).
• A monk’s unarmed attacks will strike/damage creatures that may only be harmed by magical weapons.
• A monk's hands satisfies any pre-requisite for carrying a shield; e.g. Pushback, crits, etc.
• Unarmed combat damage (Level:Damage): 1:1d6; 3:1d8; 5:1d10; 7:1d12; 9:1d16; 10:1d20
• Can be considered two-weapon fighting; per table 4-3.

Luck:
A monk's Luck modifier applies to all unarmed attacks.

Fast Movement:
As long as the monk is not wearing armor, his speed is 40’.

Dodge Weapon:
Monks may dodge breath attacks, magic missile fire, and missiles of a non-magical nature with a successful Reflex saving throw. When saving against other effects that deal damage, successful saving throws result in no damage even when damage would normally be half.

Falling:
A monk gains the ability to fall 20 feet and suffer no damage, so long as they are no further than 1' from a wall to help break the fall.

Healing:
Monks may meditate for 1 turn, healing 1d6+Class Level hp of damage once per day.

Grappling:
As a bonus, a monk adds their class level to their grappling rolls.


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 Post subject: Re: Please review my Monk class
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 3:54 am 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:36 am
Posts: 525
I have some feedback to give, and to give frame of reference for where I stand on the issue I will mention that I currently have a player that is playing a Monk - by way of being a Neutral Thief by mechanics, and a Monk because the character's flavor is Monk.

All feedback comparing to Warrior:

Hit Die: d8 seems good instead of d12... possibly a d10 could be okay (with other features lessened)

Alignment: I don't see any need for an alignment restriction unless it is based upon monastic tradition - the Iron Hand monks might be lawful, the Rising Dragons chaotic, and the Petals of the Perfected Lotus might be Neutral.

Weapon Training: the weapons fit the monk type... but keep most of the "best" weapons from the warrior list.

Armor: Your proposed rule is actually an AC bonus considering the typical economic situation... a good Dexterity roll, say a 15, gets the Monk an AC of 16 with no gold spent or need to find loot upon hitting level 1... and a Warrior would have an AC of 11 for the same investment, or would need at least 90 gold worth of equipment to manage the same. A warrior generated at level 1 by the rules presented in the book can't even afford that AC by rolling max on his gold (5d12) and spending every cent on AC.

Most of the other listed powers, in my opinion, are also too good in comparison for what is "lost" - unarmed damage eventually being superior to the damage of a 2-handed weapon (d10 in all cases) and not having the initiative penalty is a bit over the top... and adding in that you could two-weapon fight on top of that... way too much benefit gained for what is "lost."

Hopefully this feedback is taken as intended, as helpful criticism, and not as some kind of attack... I admit, again, that I am the type to just go with in-character change of flavor to make things fit than to actually start inventing new rules... I want more class options for demihumans in my own games, but am actually afraid to make them because I don't want to go overboard.


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 Post subject: Re: Please review my Monk class
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 6:30 am 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer

Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 6:06 am
Posts: 23
As TheNobleDrake said, my intent is for the following to be constructive criticism.

Hit Points:
d8 HD seems reasonable if you reduce the power of some of the other abilities.

Alignment:
Not sure why there should be an alignment restriction honestly.

Weapon training:
Seems fine I guess.

Armor:
I think it is a little much that they can either do this or wear any armor. Gives them the best of both worlds, I would probably restrict the armor a little more.

Attack (Deed Die)/Crit Die & Table/Action Dice/Saving Throws:
I would give them critical hits as a dwarf. I think the warrior crit table ought to be protected.

Quote:
Mighty Deeds:
A monk may perform Mighty Deeds as per a warrior.
Monk Weapon Specific Deed (also considered the monk's "default" deed if not declared as per pg. 93) is Unarmed Combat as per below:
• Unarmed attacks can be considered non-subdual (Monk's Choice).
• A monk’s unarmed attacks will strike/damage creatures that may only be harmed by magical weapons.
• A monk's hands satisfies any pre-requisite for carrying a shield; e.g. Pushback, crits, etc.
• Unarmed combat damage (Level:Damage): 1:1d6; 3:1d8; 5:1d10; 7:1d12; 9:1d16; 10:1d20
• Can be considered two-weapon fighting; per table 4-3.

Luck:
A monk's Luck modifier applies to all unarmed attacks.



I really think this is much too much. I would give them either mighty deeds or the unarmed attacks, not both. So, assuming we mean monk as unarmed fighter, I would take away the mighty deeds and give them just the unarmed attack powers. Also note that the luck modifier basically gives them two lucky rolls.

Fast Movement:
This seems fine.

Dodge Weapon:
This seems like an awful lot. I would drop it completely or make it a level based ability.

Falling:
Seems fine.

Healing:
Also seems like a lot.

Grappling:
This seems fine.

So basically I think that as written they have a lot of very powerful abilities that I think will wind up overshadowing other characters. I think if niche protection is something you are looking it damages the following niches: warrior and dwarf (combat prowess), thief (agility), halfling (two-weapon fighting), and cleric (healing). Spreading some of these abilities out over levels might make them more balanced or retooling them to be a little more two-sided (e.g. armor restrictions, no mighty deeds but unarmed combat - or at least mighty deeds only if unarmed, dodge weapon and falling only if unarmored).

I hope my feedback was helpful!


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 Post subject: Re: Please review my Monk class
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 6:43 am 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer
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Joined: Wed May 02, 2012 10:31 am
Posts: 35
Location: 40 miles north of Watertown, NY
I'm always glad to see some appreciation for the pseudo-"Eastern" classes that Gary threw in for fun, so here are my notes, in the spirit of being constructive. My perspective is that each class ability should be something you can connect directly to background or use to flesh out a persona. Since this is a custom class, you can really tailor it to the individual character!

8bitjunkie wrote:
I took a try at creating one, tossing most of the magical-like abilities. I did not want to step on the warrior...

Can you say why you decided to remove magical abilities? Doesn't that just create a martial artist instead of a monk?

Alignment: I agree with NobleDrake that you should let the player choose an alignment, and work with them to flesh out the monk's background. Chaos Monks would be very interesting indeed, if you and your player can work out a way for the PC to be able to walk around a village or town without being arrested on sight.

Weapon training: Given the focus will be on unarmed combat, I'd restrict a 1st level monk to only staff, longbow and temple sword (a finely balanced weapon used in training, and the PC has -2 to use "western" longswords until he quests to find a sword he's comfortable with). Gain proficiency in another "western" type weapon from your proposed list at each level, as the monk learns more about his new country (and trains incessantly while the Warriors and Thieves blow their gold on carousing).

Armor: It's a little ironic that monk characters are serene and peaceful, while their players are a bundle of nerves wondering if the NEXT hit will be the one that gets through their crazy-high AC and demolishes their meagre pile of hit points. But until then, monks will be untouchable. I bet as soon as your other players see this monk in play, the only characters surviving the funnel will be the AGI 16-18 crowd, who will all become monks.
I don't quite know how to fix this, but I would investigate something along the lines of
    monks don't know armor, don't use it, and none of their abilities (including the following) work at all when the monk wears any protective gear
    starting AC of 11, or 12, or 13
    gain bonus to AC = class level when wearing robes (not tunics or western clothes)
    gain double the agility modifier when unarmored, and while they can still be surprised, they can always use their agility bonuses
    start with 2D6 hit points at level one, gain 1D6+1 every level after that
    massive armor check penalties to acrobatics (and combat) when carrying anything more than one staff, one burlap sack with a bowl and blanket.
That last one is where the DM can prevent the monk from becoming a munchkin in the hands of a power gamer. Yes, he might be strong in combat, but the party will quickly get tired of him having to drop his share of the treasure to fight off a giant snake, and the coins trickle down a crack in the cavern floor...

Attack (Deed Die)/Crit Die, etc: I'm fine with them being as powerful as warriors, if not as versatile - a monk can't pick up any mace or flail he finds lying on a rotting pew in the old church and smack a skeleton as hard as a warrior could. But with the right weapon, they should be able to fight better than clerics or thieves.

Mighty Deeds: This is the major issue I have. My opinion is that Deeds should be restricted to Warriors and Dwarves as an iron-clad rule. I think letting other classes use Mighty Deeds is as bad as letting other classes cast wizard spells. Copying a Warrior's best ability is what would "step on him" the most.

I'd replace it with the funky quasi-mystical abilities, and in the same way a rookie Warrior isn't sure what his Mighty Deed attempts can accomplish, I'd keep much of the Monk's potential hidden. The player won't know what his PC is capable of until he discovers it in an adventure. You can tie it in nicely as "the Monk's journey is one of self-discovery and enlightenment". He'll have some great stories: "Remember when I discovered I could swim underwater for 10 minutes with a single breath of air?" "Remember when my monk used pressure points to paralyze that evil wizard's wand-waving arm?"

Unarmed Combat: with a (non-Deed) Attack Die adding 1-3 points of damage, the monk is quite powerful. I'm fine with how you've done that. And if it turns out to be too strong, it's an easy fix - the PCs start encountering non-human monsters with no pressure points and stony skin. All of a sudden, the Attack Die doesn't add to damage anymore.

Luck: A monk's Luck modifier applies to all unarmed attacks. But not unarmed damage, right? Just the "to-hit"?

Fast Movement: I'd change the monk's movement to 30 + (levelx5) feet when unencumbered. If the player is lucky enough and skilled enough to reach high levels with a Monk, his reward is Super-speed. Give him red robes with a yellow lightning bolt on the front.

Dodge Weapon: I wouldn't let a monk's speed trump the Magic Missile spell. And I would say that a monk can attempt a saving throw to dodge the FIRST missile attack against him each round.

Falling: No issues here, I just want to point out that this is a great spot for a monk's hidden potential to shine through, at whatever class level you deem appropriate. A Reflex save or Agility check to stop falling (suddenly, you grab a branch growing out of the side of the cliff! There's a strawberry growing from a small plant directly above you!), another check to grab a comrade falling next to you, etc.

Healing: I'd suggest that any monk who medititates for 2 hours at the end of the day heals 1d12 hit points. It's not a source of healing during the adventure, but it does create an incentive for the monk's party to find a safe room in the spider cult's temple where they can spike the door and rest in the night, old-school style.

Grappling: This is where I might possibly be persuaded that a monk could accomplish a somewhat-mighty deed. Using a judo move to fling someone across the room into a tangle of rotted curtains, and so on.

A lot of the flavour of a Monk can come from the acrobatic flips and leaps the player describes - I'd let a Monk who can't cast spells, has no Deeds, no thief's Luck, no Feign Death etc, to get away with a lot of great maneuvers when the player roleplays it well. Doesn't that fit in well with the old-school rule of "you can accomplish anything that you can convince the DM your character would be able to do"?

A monk may not be able to disable or dismember a monster as a Warrior might, but he should be the most mobile fighter in the battle, and have a pretty good chance to avoid being trapped, surrounded, knocked prone or pinned. In abstract DCC combat, all it takes is some imagination on the part of the DM.


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 Post subject: Re: Please review my Monk class
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 8:36 am 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer

Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:44 pm
Posts: 12
Thanks for all the feedback; I am going the ponder and incorporate some of the ideas above and post back an updated version.

My first attempt I realize I started out a little on the high-end; and I also forgot to write down some assumptions from the older versioned Monk (no str bonuses for unarmed damage for one). Also, any class can two-weapon fight and I just pointed it out that it is possible with unarmed attacks; I did not indicate that it was as per halfing though as that was not my intention - please let me know if I read this incorrectly.


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 Post subject: Re: Please review my Monk class
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 9:53 am 
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Deft-Handed Cutpurse

Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:05 pm
Posts: 261
Location: Central Vermont
I think you need to start by writing out a narrative of what the Monk in your campaign is. A paragon of discipline and virtue channeling inner mystic energy? A commoner touched by fate to have amazing powers of unarmed combat? A religious adherent touched by greater powers to demonstrate their essence through martial displays? An eastern wandering beggar who conceals their inner power?

The description will go a long way to guiding both your design efforts and the feedback you can get. Whatever you develop will fit in DCC better if you have the story down first.


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 Post subject: Re: Please review my Monk class
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 10:25 am 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer

Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:44 pm
Posts: 12
meivnt; well noted...I am just more focused on the mechanics that support what my player and I had in mind for the campaign. :D
==
My 2nd attempt/edit of the Monk above.

My notes:
I am still messing with AC and unarmed combat damage...but, I agree with the posts above, the original was too powerful...I may just have to tweak in-play as one of my players runs one through our campaign.

I am still reluctant to drop mighty deeds, but I did define their use better, so hopefully that helps. I know the players at my table. Since mighty deeds are up to the imagination of the player, I am sure he will be sticking to monk-like deeds of escape, pushbacks, etc...monk stuff!

Adding frugal was something that probably didn't need to be done as the player playing the monk would of done so anyway...but, it does help define the vision and sort of jives with what meivnt and TheNobleDrake was mentioning above.

As always, feedback appreciated...thanks bill4935, I took a lot from your post!


Monk:

Hit Points:
A monk gains 1d8 hit points at each level.

Alignment:
Any. Please come up with a monastic background to explain your alignment choice.

Weapon training:
A monk is trained in following weapons: Staff, longbow, and long sword. As a monk advances, each level they may train and gain proficiency with any one weapon from the warrior’s weapons training list keeping within flavor of the monk class.

Armor:
When not wearing armor, a monk's armor class equals 13 + Class Level + Agility modifier.
Monks may wear any armor but they no longer benefit from this talent and are considered not being frugal.

Attack (Deed Die)/Crit Die & Table/Action Dice/Saving Throws:
Monks share the same class abilities per the Warrior class on table 1-10; Monks do not share the threat range from this table.
A monk always uses their action dice for attacks. At 5th level, a monk gains a second attack each round with his second action die per table 1-10.

Mighty Deeds:
A monk may perform Mighty Deeds as per a warrior. Deeds need to be defensive or mobile, and confined within the flavor of the monk class; e.g. Disarming Attacks, Escapes, Pushbacks, Trips and Throws, etc.

Unarmed Attacks:
Unarmed attacks can be considered a Monk Weapon-Specific Mighty Deed (default deed, pg. 93):
• Unarmed attacks can be considered non-subdual (Monk's Choice).
• A monk’s unarmed attacks may strike/damage creatures that may only be hit/harmed by magical weapons (if the deed die comes up as a 3 or better and the attack lands).
• A monk's hands satisfies any pre-requisite for carrying a shield; e.g. crits, etc.
• Unarmed attack damage (Level:Damage): 1-2:1d6; 3-5:1d8; 6-8:1d10; 9-10:1d12 + Strength modifier.
• Unarmed attacks can be utilized as two-weapon fighting; per table 4-3 and pg. 95.

Frugal:
A monk will suffer armor check penalties (-5) to acrobatics, armor class, and combat when carrying anything more than one weapon, one burlap sack with a bowl and blanket.
If a monk is not being frugal, the following talents are restricted from use: Mighty Deeds, Unarmed Attacks, Fast Movement, Dodge Weapon, Falling, and Grappling.

Fast Movement:
A monk’s speed is 40’.

Dodge Weapon:
Monks may dodge breath attacks, magic missile fire, and missiles of a non-magical nature with a successful Reflex saving throw. When saving against other effects that deal damage, successful saving throws result in no damage even when damage would normally be half. A monk may only attempt to dodge one missile attack per class level per round.

Falling:
A monk gains the ability to fall 20 feet and suffer no damage, so long as they are no further than 1' from a wall to help break the fall.

Healing:
Monks may meditate for 1 turn, healing 1d6+Class Level hp of damage once per day.

Grappling:
As a bonus, a monk adds their class level to their grappling rolls.


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 Post subject: Re: Please review my Monk class
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 11:11 am 
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Location: 40 miles north of Watertown, NY
I like this new version. (How could I not? Looks like I had some good ideas!)

Since you know your players, you can be confident in knowing that they won't abuse the class if it turns out to be capable of out-performing the default-class characters in the party. My strong concerns about keeping classes balanced (especially considering they all have the same XP table) won't apply to your campaign.

Otherwise, if for example I'm playing with strangers who may or may not play well with others, I'd be inclined to offer 8bitjunkie's version as a "mystery". The character is fresh out of the monastery, and the player finds out through play just what abilities he gains at future levels, and what lifestyle choices affect his "inner balance". Metal armor? Alcohol? Treasure hunting? Slaughtering unintelligent animals? Bam, you're "disrupted". Say hello to AC 10, 1D3 damage punches and a hangover.


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 Post subject: Re: Please review my Monk class
PostPosted: Mon May 28, 2012 7:50 pm 
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Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:36 am
Posts: 525
The new version is looking a lot better to me... I am still worried about the unarmed damage, however.

I think, for rules staying as much the same across the classes as possible, that Strength modifier should be included... but the increases in dice size...

Because of the rarity of magic weapons, and the fact that a monk could very well use one of said magic weapons if of the appropriate type (in my opinion, a situation that is just as likely as the warrior having a magic weapon, since most PC owned magical weapons will most likely be the result of either specifically questing to find the item they wish to use, or made for them by their wizard companion)... I just don't get why the monk, upon reaching 6th level, gets to deal the damage of a two-handed weapon with a one-handed attack... and is allowed to use his pair of two-handed weapon damage equivalents alongside his likely high agility to two-weapon fight with decent accuracy.

I would recommend a slower, or at least lower, scale of unarmed damage - I would probably start with this:

The Killing Hand: Thanks to intense training in martial technique and hardening of the "striking surfaces" of the body through repeated ritualistic activities (punching into a jar full of sand, touch his outstretched fingertips to a wooden wall and then pushing forward into a punch, and switching to iron when the wood starts to shatter, etc.) Monk characters are able to deal their choice of lethal or subduing damage with their unarmed attacks. Further, at higher levels of experience the Monk receives increased unarmed attack damage: At 3rd level their unarmed damage increases to 1d4, at 5th it again increases to 1d5, and at 6th level it increases for the last time to 1d6.

but that is because I like for Monk type characters to have superior (to other classes) unarmed combat skill, but still have clear reasons to use mundane weapons... so that you can chose, at least in part, to follow a flavor choice and not be leaving yourself at a severe disadvantage - I think the eventual equivalence of "any part of my body is as dangerous as a short sword" is just about right.


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 Post subject: Re: Please review my Monk class
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 9:09 am 
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I really like it, kudos 8bit. My only complaints would be the Mighty Deeds thing slightly steps on the Warrior's toes, and the class is a little TOO detailed. If I had to make a slimmed down, rules-light version (more to the taste of my gaming table), I would say:

Monk

Hit Dice: 1d8 (No change here)

Weapons: Blowgun, longbow, shortbow, dagger, dart, polearm, longsword, short sword, sling, and staff. (Added polearm)

Armour: Monks may wear any armour. A monk's AC is never less than his Agility score. (Toned down and simplified AC)

Attack: As per warrior. When unarmoured, monks may perform Mighty Deeds as per warrior. (The strategic benefits of going unarmoured is contrasted with the improved attack, which is better in my opinion than watering down the advantage by requiring the monk to be unarmed)

Action Die: As per warrior.

Crit: As per thief. (Includes crit range and tables, to not step on the warrior's toes)

Saving Throws: As per thief. (A simple way to get the good Reflex saves)

Luck: A monk's Luck modifier applies to all unarmed attacks.

Fists of Fury: When unarmed, monks deal 1d6 damage and may use the two-weapon fighting rules as per halfling. (A simple way to benefit unarmed fighting)

In my opinion, the monk needs no further benefit for being unarmed. His attack would be warrior attack die + Strength + Luck and his damage would be 1d6 + warrior attack die + Strength with multiple attacks and Mighty Deeds. This is comparable to a warrior, but lacks the critical hits and equipment options of higher level warriors.


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 Post subject: Re: Please review my Monk class
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2012 9:41 am 
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I like this version.

Yoink!

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 Post subject: Re: Please review my Monk class
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 5:41 am 
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I am planning to introduce a monk too. The rough sketch looks like this:

Hit Dice: d8
Weapons: martial arts weapons
Attack Bonus: like cleric
Saving Throw: Ref +1 to +6, Fort +1 to +4, Will +1 to +4
Luck: fumbles and criticals (again)

Mighty Deed of Arms: When fighting without armour and wielding the arms of his order or unarmed, the monk attacks like an equal level warrior.
Dodge Blow: The monk gains bonus to his AC, when not weaing armour.
Martial Arts: The monk gains bonus to his unarmed damage, when not weaing armour.
Slow Fall: Damage taken from fall is reduced for the monk.
Speed: The monk moves faster than anyone else.
Initiative: Like the warrior's ability.
Move Silently: Like a thief skill.
Hide in Shadows: Like a thief skill.

I didn't write exact numbers yet, because I didn't have enough time to work on it and test it. Like in case of the thief, the various bonuses would depend on the level and alignment of the monk. I have some other abilities in my mind, which depend on alignment. Eg. lawful monks are cenobites who can heal, chaotic monks are ninjas who can disguise themselves and backstab.

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 Post subject: Re: Please review my Monk class
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 9:11 am 
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It occurs to me that one issue here is 'giving away' the Warrior's MDoA or not...

If a Monk's fighting style is inspired by martial arts -- why not develop a set of specific moves that the Monk class has access to...? Maybe there is a suite of these, and at each level (or every other level, or every third level, depending on their awesomeness) they get to pick one, as their 'specialty'. Of course, the flavor of all their other attacks is martial artsy, as well -- there's just no particular mechanical advantage.

There may need to be some constraints, otherwise if you give a Monk a nearly-failproof ability to trip his foes, it may be all he winds up doing. Maybe a once-every-three-rounds sort of rule*, since in order to execute the maneuver, his victim has to be 'set up' in the right way for the take down. It's all about leading your target into the trap... (sorry thieves, just metaphorically, or course!).

This seems like a fair representation of "superior" martial training, maneuvers perfected over centuries and handed down from master to pupil ad infinitum, without stepping on any of the toes of the Warrior and all his gonzo "watch me dance on their upturned faces while I kill all the flying squidly-bat-things" inventiveness.



* Alternately, what about always having access to several maneuvers, but after performing one, there's a die roll to see how many rounds it takes to set up the next one. That die gets smaller as the Monk levels-up...

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Here Be DCC Monsters...

General Yoros, Warrior, Str 13, Agl 8 (10), Stm 17, Per 13, Int 11, Lck 8; Law, HP 39, AC 17, R+2, F+4, W+2, band/shld, warhammer, longsword, longbow, pitchfork

Han Dee, (Weaver) Neutral Thief, Str 10, Agi 13, Stm 11, Per 11, Int 15, Lck 14, AC 13 (Leather), HP 25, Luck Die d6, Backstab 3, Sneak Silently 10, Hide In Shadows 9, Pick Pocket 10, Climb Sheer 10, Pick Lock 9, Find Trap 9, Disable Trap 9, Forge Doc 10, Disguise 3, Read Lang 5, Handle Poison 3, Cast Scroll d14+2, birth augur (Born under the loom) +1 to all skill checks (including thief skills), Banepicks (auto pick lock/disable trap, but lose 1d3 random ability loss, if a 3 then 1 pt is perm)


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 Post subject: Re: Please review my Monk class
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 10:26 am 
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GnomeBoy wrote:
If a Monk's fighting style is inspired by martial arts -- why not develop a set of specific moves that the Monk class has access to...? Maybe there is a suite of these, and at each level (or every other level, or every third level, depending on their awesomeness) they get to pick one, as their 'specialty'. Of course, the flavor of all their other attacks is martial artsy, as well -- there's just no particular mechanical advantage.

Deeds already do this, plus I don't want to write another subsystem for combat maneuvers just for the sake of having one. It also increases complexity.

GnomeBoy wrote:
There may need to be some constraints, otherwise if you give a Monk a nearly-failproof ability to trip his foes, it may be all he winds up doing.

Something the Warrior can do too. It's up to the Judge to do something against such "nearly-failproof" abilities. Try using it against a slime, make him face someone who does the same, make it backfire if it misses. Also don't forget, that monsters don't have to play by the rules.

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 Post subject: Re: Please review my Monk class
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 10:37 am 
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Ravenheart87 wrote:
GnomeBoy wrote:
If a Monk's fighting style is inspired by martial arts -- why not develop a set of specific moves that the Monk class has access to...? Maybe there is a suite of these, and at each level (or every other level, or every third level, depending on their awesomeness) they get to pick one, as their 'specialty'. Of course, the flavor of all their other attacks is martial artsy, as well -- there's just no particular mechanical advantage.

Deeds already do this, plus I don't want to write another subsystem for combat maneuvers just for the sake of having one. It also increases complexity.


+1 on this.

It is probably better to constrain monk Deeds (1) by the size of the Deed die, and (2) narratively (i.e., the monk player describes what is desired, and how it is to be done, before rolling the die). The core rules already have examples of how "larger" successes are needed for better outcomes, and a good Judge can use this to disallow (or make much harder) game-breaking Deeds.

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Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.


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 Post subject: Re: Please review my Monk class
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 10:46 am 
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Raven_Crowking wrote:
It is probably better to constrain monk Deeds (1) by the size of the Deed die, and (2) narratively (i.e., the monk player describes what is desired, and how it is to be done, before rolling the die). The core rules already have examples of how "larger" successes are needed for better outcomes, and a good Judge can use this to disallow (or make much harder) game-breaking Deeds.

My thoughts exactly.

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 Post subject: Re: Please review my Monk class
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 11:09 am 
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I notice you fellows are both in favor of 'giving' the Monk the Warrior's MDoA. Meanwhile, I'm not.

Just to bring my basic point to the fore: Deeds let the Warrior improvise endlessly.That's theirs. My suggestion would give a Monk a few signature moves, that wouldn't apply all the time (and probably only against 'human' foes, at that). It throws the Monk class a bone, without removing a femur from the Warrior...

Personally, my own personal solution if I wanted to play a Monk would be to play a Warrior with Monk flavoring, but that's just me...

There's even a shop here in my town that sells monk flavoring. True story.

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Gnome Boy (a.k.a. "Jon") • DCC play-tester @ DDC 35, Feb 2011. • Beta DL 2111, 7:00 AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since 1977 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters - Holds the power to play gnomes at will!

Here Be DCC Monsters...

General Yoros, Warrior, Str 13, Agl 8 (10), Stm 17, Per 13, Int 11, Lck 8; Law, HP 39, AC 17, R+2, F+4, W+2, band/shld, warhammer, longsword, longbow, pitchfork

Han Dee, (Weaver) Neutral Thief, Str 10, Agi 13, Stm 11, Per 11, Int 15, Lck 14, AC 13 (Leather), HP 25, Luck Die d6, Backstab 3, Sneak Silently 10, Hide In Shadows 9, Pick Pocket 10, Climb Sheer 10, Pick Lock 9, Find Trap 9, Disable Trap 9, Forge Doc 10, Disguise 3, Read Lang 5, Handle Poison 3, Cast Scroll d14+2, birth augur (Born under the loom) +1 to all skill checks (including thief skills), Banepicks (auto pick lock/disable trap, but lose 1d3 random ability loss, if a 3 then 1 pt is perm)


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 Post subject: Re: Please review my Monk class
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 11:29 am 
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GnomeBoy wrote:
I notice you fellows are both in favor of 'giving' the Monk the Warrior's MDoA. Meanwhile, I'm not.

Just to bring my basic point to the fore: Deeds let the Warrior improvise endlessly.That's theirs.


A Warrior, with monk flavouring (or, for that matter, a Thief with monk flavouring) are obviously also possibilities.

However, the Deed mechanic is not limited to Warriors even in the core, nor do monks need to be as good with it as Warriors are, as already occurs with Dwarves. I do agree that it is important not to dilute the Warrior, and I am not sure that I like monks armoured.

I'll give this some more thought.

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Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.


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 Post subject: Re: Please review my Monk class
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 11:41 am 
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GnomeBoy wrote:
Personally, my own personal solution if I wanted to play a Monk would be to play a Warrior with Monk flavoring, but that's just me...


I think that's a difference between the AD&D and BD&D philosophies. To me, the difference between a new Monk class (which works like a Warrior) or playing a Monk-themed Warrior are very slight, in practice. It's fair to call the Monk an Eastern Warrior, and simply disallow pure Warrior characters from the East. I'd only be concerned if any homebrewed classes outshined the by-the-book classes, but other than that I say it would be fine.


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 Post subject: Re: Please review my Monk class
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 11:41 am 
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GnomeBoy wrote:
I notice you fellows are both in favor of 'giving' the Monk the Warrior's MDoA. Meanwhile, I'm not.

Personally, my own personal solution if I wanted to play a Monk would be to play a Warrior with Monk flavoring, but that's just me...
.

I guess there are two sides to this debate and the official encouragement to "fear no rule" and make the game ours, means each of us are in the right, no matter which way we go.

But GnomeBoy, for what it's worth, I'm on your side. Human and Dwarf Warriors should be the only ones capable of Mighty Deeds of Arms, and anyone who thinks otherwise is a baseless heretic. Shun them! Shun them, I say. :twisted:


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 Post subject: Re: Please review my Monk class
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 11:52 am 
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No one's going to take away the Deeds from Warriors. Dwarves didn't take away the Deeds from Warriors. Monks won't take it away from them. My monk's Deeds are already limited - they can't use it armoured or with every weapon. Monks can do cool stuff like Warriors, but they are squishy. I still believe that doing another system to do the same thing is a waste of time.

bill4935 wrote:
But GnomeBoy, for what it's worth, I'm on your side. Human and Dwarf Warriors should be the only ones capable of Mighty Deeds of Arms, and anyone who thinks otherwise is a baseless heretic. Shun them! Shun them, I say. :twisted:

Did I mention I'm not going to use race-as-class? :D Seriously, why are some people making such a big deal about how I house rule and expand the game for my own campaign? I'm sharing it for those who might find it useful, not for those who aren't intested in it at all. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Please review my Monk class
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2012 12:36 pm 
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Ravenheart87 wrote:
I'm sharing it for those who might find it useful, not for those who aren't intested in it at all. :)

That's two of us. 8) And by 'two' I mean 'all'. :)

Ravenheart87 wrote:
I still believe that doing another system to do the same thing is a waste of time.

FWIW, I don't see my suggestion as doing the same thing as Deeds. I'm picturing a high-level Monk having four or five possible 'stunts', and that is all. Not nearly as adaptable as a Deed...

bill4935 wrote:
Shun them! Shun them, I say. :twisted:

I'm a Scout!

...Wanna see my class abilities? :twisted:

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Gnome Boy (a.k.a. "Jon") • DCC play-tester @ DDC 35, Feb 2011. • Beta DL 2111, 7:00 AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since 1977 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters - Holds the power to play gnomes at will!

Here Be DCC Monsters...

General Yoros, Warrior, Str 13, Agl 8 (10), Stm 17, Per 13, Int 11, Lck 8; Law, HP 39, AC 17, R+2, F+4, W+2, band/shld, warhammer, longsword, longbow, pitchfork

Han Dee, (Weaver) Neutral Thief, Str 10, Agi 13, Stm 11, Per 11, Int 15, Lck 14, AC 13 (Leather), HP 25, Luck Die d6, Backstab 3, Sneak Silently 10, Hide In Shadows 9, Pick Pocket 10, Climb Sheer 10, Pick Lock 9, Find Trap 9, Disable Trap 9, Forge Doc 10, Disguise 3, Read Lang 5, Handle Poison 3, Cast Scroll d14+2, birth augur (Born under the loom) +1 to all skill checks (including thief skills), Banepicks (auto pick lock/disable trap, but lose 1d3 random ability loss, if a 3 then 1 pt is perm)


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 Post subject: Re: Please review my Monk class
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 3:20 pm 
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When I think of monks ( Shaolin, Yamabushi, etc…) I think of a martial religious order much like unarmored clerics. So, what I have done is used some ideas listed above to make a cleric inspired monk as opposed to a warrior inspired martial artist Basically instead of spells they use chi which is mechanically a thief's luck ability. I also tagged a little blurb for ninjas.

Monk

Hit Dice: 1d8

Weapons: dagger, dart, pole-arm, longsword, short sword, sling, spear, and staff.

Armor: Monks may not wear any armour. A monk's AC is never less than his Agility score.

Attack: Cleric ( use Agility instead of Strength for to hit)

Action Die: Cleric.

Crit: As per cleric.

Saving Throws: As per thief.

Luck: Chi ( Thief)

Fists of Fury: When unarmed, monks deal 1d6 damage and may use the two-weapon fighting rules as per halfling. (A simple way to benefit unarmed fighting)

Ninja

As per thief except it can do 1d6 unarmed damage if unarmored or in light armor ( leather or padded)


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 Post subject: Re: Please review my Monk class
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:17 pm 
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Another thought I had was this, thieves and Halflings get luck, Clerics, Elves, and Wizards get magic, and Warriors and Dwarves get Mighty Deeds. Perhaps instead of Chi for luck rolls like thieves, maybe they can use their luck (chi) to heal? Maybe one point of luck (chi) per hit point or maybe a Thief or Halfling progression. This way there is an extra healer in the party and it sort of stays with my monk is similar to cleric thoughts.

Thanks,

HN


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 Post subject: Re: Please review my Monk class
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:21 pm 
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The more you do to differentiate the play experience, the better the class will be. Turning Luck into healing is a good concept, if the class doesn't regenerate Luck as a thief or halfling does. That makes it a real choice, and something that will not occur all of the time.....? (Just thinking out lout here.)

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SoBH pbp:

Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.


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