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 Post subject: Patrons vs. Gods
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:38 pm 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

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I am having a difficult time really parsing the differences between patrons and gods. I assume that patrons are the source for wizard power and gods clerical power? Are there some entities that are both? I see no reason why a patron couldn't be a god itself, though I understand that they could just be demi-powers. How do you decide if an entity is one or the other?


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 Post subject: Re: Patrons vs. Gods
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:45 pm 
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There was a thread on this topic before: viewtopic.php?f=72&t=42076&hilit=patrons+gods

This may also be of some use: http://ravencrowking.blogspot.ca/2012/0 ... ssics.html

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 Post subject: Re: Patrons vs. Gods
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:48 pm 
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I think that any entity with enough "mojo" to be a patron for a wizard also has the "mojo" to be worshipped by a cleric and grant powers - the only real decision is whether the entity in question accepts each of those types of relationships or not.

Some don't respect worship but will grant a bond to those determined enough to seek it, others might grant power to those that worship but refuse the "scratch my back and I'll scratch yours," type of bargain that a bond is... and other entities still might simply refuse to share their power with anyone.

How I decide: is there a PC that is trying to create a relationship (either worship or "business") with a powerful entity? If yes, what does that entity as an NPC think of the character in question?


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 Post subject: Re: Patrons vs. Gods
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:05 pm 
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Yep, my take is that in general most patrons are weaker than most deities, but that there is considerable overlap and a number of deities would also be willing to serve as patrons. Cthulhu, for example, strikes me as an entity that is worshipped as a god, but is also ripe with potential for being a patron too. I think that trying to define such beings in strict, neat little categories would be to miss the fact that they are a varied bunch in power, outlook, and capriciousness, and that in and of itself makes rigid separation of patrons and deities futile.

Colin


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 Post subject: Re: Patrons vs. Gods
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:48 pm 
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Consider this:

Invoke patron is analogous to the invocation of a deity, except the patron effects are probably less spectacular than the effects of invoking a deity may yet be.

Casting a spell for a cleric uses the power of said deity, and said deity can take it away.

Casting a spell for a wizard with a patron may be influenced by that patron, but the patron cannot generally take it away.

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Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.


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 Post subject: Re: Patrons vs. Gods
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 6:18 am 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

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Colin wrote:
Cthulhu, for example, strikes me as an entity that is worshipped as a god, but is also ripe with potential for being a patron too. I think that trying to define such beings in strict, neat little categories would be to miss the fact that they are a varied bunch in power, outlook, and capriciousness, and that in and of itself makes rigid separation of patrons and deities futile.

Colin


I see the whole concept of Cthulhu as this:

We still survive because

1) he was bound
2) we are beneath notice

I suppose if he is bound he could bargain power in an effort to forward the cause of him being released. Being released would mean that he would pretty much destroy the world. Maybe his priests long to be in a "better place" and hate the world.


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 Post subject: Re: Patrons vs. Gods
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:56 am 
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cthulhudarren wrote:
I see the whole concept of Cthulhu as this:

We still survive because

1) he was bound
2) we are beneath notice

I suppose if he is bound he could bargain power in an effort to forward the cause of him being released. Being released would mean that he would pretty much destroy the world. Maybe his priests long to be in a "better place" and hate the world.

Going further, I think Cthulhu and his ilk are fairly incomprehensible to the likes of us. We can interpret what is written in fragments and we can interpret actions, but it's all cloudy and already-(mis)interpreted and ultimately unknowable. So the supplicants to Cthulhu might believe any number of things that have nothing to do with the unknowable real deal. They might as likely believe that the Slumbering One will spare them his destruction and install them as gods in the next world... Or any number of other things.

This makes him potentially a very attractive patron -- he is what you think he is...

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 Post subject: Re: Patrons vs. Gods
PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:42 pm 
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It's not about the strength or even nature of the entity, it's about the relationship.

Having a patron is like being in a business relationship. You may be a junior partner--you may even be their protegee. Heck, there might even be a certain level of affection. But in the end, it's a business relationship; and they expect something from you.

Serving a deity is fundamentally different: I'd liken it to a family relationship. Granted, even the most benevolent of gods put domineering parents to shame; but as a rule it's the relationship itself, and the worship that comes with it, that the deity wants.


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 Post subject: Re: Patrons vs. Gods
PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:05 am 
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I'd like to see a pantheon of gods written up for for DCC, like the Norse pantheon for example. For me it's still a bit fuzzy when it comes to deities.

From what I can gather, a deity writeup should include:

1) worshipers, practices, and philosophies
2) allies and enemies (including unholy for turning)
3) sins and acceptable sacrifices
4) custom disfavor table (after all, would cthulhu ask you to heal the crippled?)
5) custom invoke dirty table (not as necessary)
6) spells granted list (plus any potential custom new spells)

Am I missing anything?


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