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 Post subject: Perceive
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:27 am 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer

Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:00 am
Posts: 15
Hello,

Not sure how many still visit these boards but I'll post my question here regardless and maybe I get lucky :)

What have you used the Perceive effect for? I have a hard time coming up with stuff it is useful for? Telepathy is the obvious but beside that most things feel like it's covered by Augment (or Transmute which is clearly stated as the effect to use for Nightsight or Infravision and such). Short of Telepathy it nearly feels like a subset of Augment to be used for Scrutiny.

Cog.


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 Post subject: Re: Perceive
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:53 am 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:32 pm
Posts: 530
Hello! Sorry, you're right it has been quiet around here.

The Perceive effect can be used for divination, augury, clairvoyance, telepathy, etc. was there some spell you were creating?

cogitare wrote:
Hello,

Not sure how many still visit these boards but I'll post my question here regardless and maybe I get lucky :)

What have you used the Perceive effect for? I have a hard time coming up with stuff it is useful for? Telepathy is the obvious but beside that most things feel like it's covered by Augment (or Transmute which is clearly stated as the effect to use for Nightsight or Infravision and such). Short of Telepathy it nearly feels like a subset of Augment to be used for Scrutiny.

Cog.


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 Post subject: Re: Perceive
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:43 am 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer

Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:00 am
Posts: 15
dancross wrote:
Hello! Sorry, you're right it has been quiet around here.
The Perceive effect can be used for divination, augury, clairvoyance, telepathy, etc. was there some spell you were creating?


I was asking in general to get some inspiration as Perceive seldom see any light in the games I'm playing using Eldritch.

Divination and Augury is clearly slated for the Augury ability and is not part of what Perceive can do (see page 50 in ERP 5.15).

But Clairvoyance (and audio) is valid stuff which can be used. I'd like to throw in seeing in the dark 'magic style' and not by Transmuting your eyes into that of a cat or other nightseeing animal (which is how I've interpreted Transmutation to work).

Also a host of See <insertstuffofchoice> could be developed I guess? See Disease, See Mystic/Primordial/Psionic/Supernatural Energies (more specific than just the basic Arcanum Detect Magic ability).

What I'd like to have seen is some tie in to Obfuscate effects. There is, to me, an obvious connection between Obfuscate and Perceive where Perceive effects should/could be able to pierce Obfuscate effects. I guess it can be managed with a simple resisted roll between the effects.

Also I guess Perceive could mimic the old D&D spell 'Read Languages' or 'Understand Languages' (this had a different name which I cannot remember)?

Have you given any thought to a communication effect? That is being able to communicate with other languages or even other entities (elementals, demons, dragons, spirits etc.). It is quite common in many fantasy-games. Or should that be a Cantrip (feels a bit too powerful to me).

Cog.


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 Post subject: Re: Perceive
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:33 am 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:32 pm
Posts: 530
Let's take another look at the text. I think you've raised some points that may require some re-thinking about the Effect. For one, having an ability like Augury that limits an magical Effect category seems somewhat arbitrary at this point.

So, Perceive "represents detection spells allowing one to find disease or magical forces at work in ones own body, as well as grant the power of premonitions, or hear the voices of spirits".

The fact that I wrote this Effect grants the power of premonitions or to hear the voices of spirits would contradict the limitation of "no divination", and the Ability needs to be changed so that is is effective in its own right, but less effective than a Perceive Effect.

"Cast on a creature, perception spells can act as telepathy or mind reading. Used on a willing subject, telepathic communication..."

I may want to open the door to telepathic communication with the unwilling, even though that could be seen as something as an Influence roll.

And this was mentioned "Cast as an Area spell it works as clairvoyance or clairaudience".

Now, the difficult part, which I think needs revision "This magical effect does not cover Divination, which is the domain of the Augury ability". I think it would be better if I rewrote that to find synergy between the Effect and the Augury ability, am amplification if you will.

And other uses, showing that I left the door perhaps a little too wide open (meaning I'd need to be a bit more specific in the next iteration) : "A spell using the “Perceive” effect may allow the caster to add a bonus to Scrutiny, or the Specialization to sense another's motive, or even gather information. The GM must assign difficulty as circumstances demand".


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 Post subject: Re: Perceive
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:45 am 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:32 pm
Posts: 530
A communication Effect for languages could be wrapped into Perceive if we made it Perceive/Comprehend. That would work without too much of a major change, I think, at least at first glance.


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 Post subject: Re: Perceive
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:48 am 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:32 pm
Posts: 530
And going to page 53...

The detection of magic is a basic cantrip that all arcanists know from the start, even before gaining knowledge of and access to the spells of various Power Sources. For instance, a magic user with ability only in Arcanum (no Specializations) can still spend a single spell point to detect active magical emanations. He could detect these energies on himself, an object, or a room, and even identify the Power Source, all for 1 spell point. To detect inactive or dormant spells and emanations, the spell caster would require the Perceive effect.


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 Post subject: Re: Perceive
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 1:37 pm 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer

Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:00 am
Posts: 15
dancross wrote:
The fact that I wrote this Effect grants the power of premonitions or to hear the voices of spirits would contradict the limitation of "no divination", and the Ability needs to be changed so that is is effective in its own right, but less effective than a Perceive Effect.


I have no patented solution to this. You might do something around clarity of answer (and of course Perceive will be much more versatile than Augury since it will handle telepathy, seeing other realms and much other) where Perceive will be clearer than Augury. That will however put more strain on the Game Master to come up with these distinction.

I have used, to fairly good effect, mechanics where the Divination will give a bonus around the object of divination (in my rules it could be a location, a person or place in time) depending on success (which will turn Perceive in that regard into more of an Augment effect though...). Another one which I have not myself used is that the player get to ask the Game Master questions regarding the Divination, say one question per margin of success maybe.

Augury could be more of a carnival trick used to gather money than actually do any "real" divination.


dancross wrote:
"Cast on a creature, perception spells can act as telepathy or mind reading. Used on a willing subject, telepathic communication..."

I may want to open the door to telepathic communication with the unwilling, even though that could be seen as something as an Influence roll.


I think it works to keep that within Perceive. Using the Saving throw system that is quite easily done. Arcanum (with Specialty and Mastery) vs. Save Ability of choice. Get to pick one piece of information per margin of success rolled.

dancross wrote:
And this was mentioned "Cast as an Area spell it works as clairvoyance or clairaudience".


Perfect Perceive effect! :D

dancross wrote:
Now, the difficult part, which I think needs revision "This magical effect does not cover Divination, which is the domain of the Augury ability". I think it would be better if I rewrote that to find synergy between the Effect and the Augury ability, am amplification if you will.


The easiest way would be to use Perceive as an Augment effect for Augury but that feels wrong. Augment already exist for that! I'll think a bit about this and post here if I think of something ;)

dancross wrote:
A communication Effect for languages could be wrapped into Perceive if we made it Perceive/Comprehend. That would work without too much of a major change, I think, at least at first glance.


Nice. Comprehend would be a fairly small niche but it could be nice to include!

dancross wrote:
The detection of magic is a basic cantrip that all arcanists know from the start, even before gaining knowledge of and access to the spells of various Power Sources. For instance, a magic user with ability only in Arcanum (no Specializations) can still spend a single spell point to detect active magical emanations. He could detect these energies on himself, an object, or a room, and even identify the Power Source, all for 1 spell point. To detect inactive or dormant spells and emanations, the spell caster would require the Perceive effect.


I actually think that Cantrip effect could be lessened where you get more specific information using Perceive. You get a general magical vibe with the Cantrip but to get information on specific power source, pinpoint exact spell etc. would be a Perceive effect.

Cog.


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 Post subject: Re: Perceive
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:51 am 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer

Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:00 am
Posts: 15
I just thought of a way to handle Perceive and link it to Scrutiny or perception based rolls for other Abilities.

What if you could get "temporary" Specialisation or Mastery depending on how well you succeed. And these can be obviously supernatural or superhuman.

For example with 1 Margin of Success you can get access to Track by Scent Specialty (which would be for Scouting and you get to roll it even if you lack Scouting (since it's restricted)) at d4, 2 margins of success d6, 3 give d8 and so on.

Or why not See the invisible specialty which will allow for you to use Scrutiny + your temporary Specialty/Mastery to counter Obfuscate effects.
See Spirits, peer into the spirit realm using Scrutiny (or perhaps Arcanum).
A divination Specialty/Mastery would give true divinatory abilities combined with the Augury Ability which otherwise is more of a cheap trick.

Each spell would grant a Specialty (or Mastery if you already have a similar Specialty) of this type.

What do you think? It is a fairly nice tie in with perceptive Abilities and can also tie in nicely with countering Obfuscate effects.

Effects such as Telepathy, Scrying etc. would obviously not be in this fashion but be effects of their own and not based on Specialty/Mastery in this fashion.

Cog.


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 Post subject: Re: Perceive
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:26 pm 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:32 pm
Posts: 530
cogitare wrote:
I just thought of a way to handle Perceive and link it to Scrutiny or perception based rolls for other Abilities.

What if you could get "temporary" Specialisation or Mastery depending on how well you succeed. And these can be obviously supernatural or superhuman.

For example with 1 Margin of Success you can get access to Track by Scent Specialty (which would be for Scouting and you get to roll it even if you lack Scouting (since it's restricted)) at d4, 2 margins of success d6, 3 give d8 and so on.

Or why not See the invisible specialty which will allow for you to use Scrutiny + your temporary Specialty/Mastery to counter Obfuscate effects.
See Spirits, peer into the spirit realm using Scrutiny (or perhaps Arcanum).
A divination Specialty/Mastery would give true divinatory abilities combined with the Augury Ability which otherwise is more of a cheap trick.

Each spell would grant a Specialty (or Mastery if you already have a similar Specialty) of this type.

What do you think? It is a fairly nice tie in with perceptive Abilities and can also tie in nicely with countering Obfuscate effects.

Effects such as Telepathy, Scrying etc. would obviously not be in this fashion but be effects of their own and not based on Specialty/Mastery in this fashion.

Cog.


I think this would work well!


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