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 Post subject: Re: Regaining Luck
PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2012 8:10 pm 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer

Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2009 5:54 pm
Posts: 21
Yes...if someone actually felt they offended me and actually CARED or thought it mattered, I can clarify that offense was not taken.

Tone is hard to read on a web board, and I think that things get aggravated a bit more because without the HUGE share of communication that is non-verbal, it's easy to interpret me saying "I don't like ASPECT #324" as "I think this whole game is garbage"...that's why I tried to periodically say "and we're playing and having fun nonetheless"....

I can absolutely see most if not all of the interpretations/house rules working, and in practice I can imagine that many become functionally equivalent (basically the corner cases may be THAT deep in the corner).


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 Post subject: Re: Regaining Luck
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:42 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:14 am
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Location: Cube Farm of Alien Geometry
The only thing that I don't like about the consensus on luck is that it depends too heavily on the random die roll at the beginning of the game. The game isn't supposed to rely too heavily on the ability scores. And limiting permanent luck seems to be in the opposite vein of the spirit of the rules.

I thought it was RAW to be able to quest for ability points. Can't you quest to become permanently luckier like you can for other stats?

The Judge would have to be vigilant about the luck scores though. You can't have everybody with an 18 luck. I still like the 8 + level (or starting score) as the heal-able luck cap. But I would not allow luck penalties to heal, only luck "burnt". For example, if you are wielding a +3 sword of awesomeness, you should be getting a luck penalty per RAW for using this item. This penalty should NOT be healed, and could only be regained by getting rid of the magic item. Likewise, if you insult a god and he bestows a luck penalty on you... you could only regain that luck by appeasing the god.

Then there may be some luck penalties that are based on time. Break a mirror, you have -1 luck for 7 years! So only in 7 years does that penalty get removed.


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 Post subject: Re: Regaining Luck
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 7:58 am 
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Cold-Hearted Immortal
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I let anyone's Luck go past its initial value; I just limit the Halfling and Thief's ability to restore it to its initial value.

I would certainly allow a quest to reset that initial value, though....... :twisted:

_________________
SoBH pbp:

Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.


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 Post subject: Re: Regaining Luck
PostPosted: Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:33 am 
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Raven_Crowking wrote:
I let anyone's Luck go past its initial value; I just limit the Halfling and Thief's ability to restore it to its initial value.

I would certainly allow a quest to reset that initial value, though....... :twisted:



This is what I do. Halfling/Thief Luck regeneration only occurs up to the permanent score, regeneration won't go above that (otherwise, you'd have a Halfling/Thief hit level 1 then sit tight for two weeks while they max out their Luck for the next adventure; kinda lame). Halflings/Thieves are able to increase their permanent scores in the same ways every other class is, though. Same goes for LOSING permanent Luck, too (curses, bad actions w/r/t alignment, etc).

_________________

RoM pbp:
Hamun Ry (Wiz 4)
Str 10 Agi 15 (+1) Sta 11 Per 11 Int 17 (+2) Luc 10 (Unholy House). Align: C. AC: 14. HP: 13. Melee +1, Ranged +2. Crit: d8, I. Save: Ref +5, Fort +3, Will +4.
Spells: 1: Choking Cloud, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic (odd crystal growths), Magic Missile (mirror images), Runic Alphabet (Mortal) (ravenously hungry), Ventriloquism (rain of frogs)
2: Detect Invisible, Levitate (extremely difficult, d14), Mirror Image (20% chance to raise/lower luck by 1d3 points).
Equip: Ring of the Sand Djinn: +2 AC/saves, Invisibility for 1min/spellburn point, or unmake for great, unknown effect. Padded Armor, Longsword, Longbow, quiver w/20 steel-tipped arrows, 10 silver-tipped arrows, backpack, spellbook, quill and ink, sturdy parchment (10 sheets), 5 days rations, high leather boots, belt w/ belt pouch, gray robe, dark gray hooded cloak. Also carries 3 small mechanical toys: wind-up mouse, wooden puzzle cube, small jewelry box that plays a little tune.


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 Post subject: Re: Regaining Luck
PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 11:18 pm 
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Cold-Hearted Immortal

Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2002 2:41 pm
Posts: 2682
Location: San Jose, CA
I had a request to try to provide some Q&A / FAQ on Luck and this thread in particular. Although with 100+ posts it may take me a while to catch up! If someone would like to summarize any questions that need answering, I'll try to jump in as best as I can...

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Joseph Goodman
Goodman Games
www.goodman-games.com


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 Post subject: Re: Regaining Luck
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:10 am 
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Location: Northern WV
Wow, awesome of you to get involved directly. I think the essence of the question is this:

When a character is rewarded with Luck points for playing their alignment well, can these Luck points gained allow the character's Luck score to raise above the initial score rolled, and if so, is it capped at 18 or can it go even higher.

I think everyone understands that this might be up to the individual judge to determine, but before we all just go our seperate ways on the issue, we are interested in knowing if this came up during playtesting and it was discovered that one of the potential solutions unbalanced play in any way.

Thanks again for taking a minute to help us sort it out!


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 Post subject: Re: Regaining Luck
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:49 am 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:25 am
Posts: 78
Also, if a thief or halfling has luck go above starting value due to a luck reward, does the new value represent the new maximum that can be regained by daily regeneration of luck, or is the starting value the permanent cap for thief/halfling luck regeneration?


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 Post subject: Re: Regaining Luck
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 10:25 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2002 2:41 pm
Posts: 2682
Location: San Jose, CA
Eyeball360 wrote:
When a character is rewarded with Luck points for playing their alignment well, can these Luck points gained allow the character's Luck score to raise above the initial score rolled, and if so, is it capped at 18 or can it go even higher.


Luck can go above the original starting score, and go above 18. In theory. For that to happen, the character would presumably be burning Luck very rarely (i.e., score goes up and doesn't go down). I don't think I've ever had a player 'hold onto Luck' like that. But I suppose it could happen.

In addition, my intent has always been that PCs encounter both positive and negative modifiers to Luck. Part of the Luck "game mechanic" is acting inside alignment. But the "story mechanic" is greater powers favoring that character's behavior. For every Lawful character who advances his cause, there's an angry demon out there who wants to sow chaos! A single adventure should rarely result in more than a 1-point change in Luck, and even that shouldn't happen too often. And that 1-point change could be positive or negative.

If the judge feels that the character is getting too lucky, there are lots of options for balancing the scales. A jealous god could present some opportunities for the PC to need to burn Luck. (Somehow this makes me think of the movie Clash of the Titans - the original 1980's version, not the remake.) Or the character's good fortune could become a nuisance if he's of name level - picture the Pied Piper but instead they are hordes of devotees who have come to learn the secrets of "the lucky priest." They have a tendency to absorb arrows and other potential hazards (i.e., character is "lucky") but they sure are noisy and they keep demanding food...

Bilgewriggler wrote:
Also, if a thief or halfling has luck go above starting value due to a luck reward, does the new value represent the new maximum that can be regained by daily regeneration of luck, or is the starting value the permanent cap for thief/halfling luck regeneration?


Yes, the new value is the new maximum value. The thief could "heal" Luck back to a higher number, so to speak. But, again, if the thief and halfling are steadily growing their Luck to the point where it's an enormous battery tapped during every game session, then the judge should remedy that via story methods (preferably before it ever becomes a problem). I've never had this happen in my games, but I suppose someone could try for it.

Hope that helps.

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Joseph Goodman
Goodman Games
www.goodman-games.com


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 Post subject: Re: Regaining Luck
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:09 am 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer
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Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:56 pm
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Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Joseph, thanks for that clarification - this'll certainly help me a lot as I have for the first time a thief in my current crop of characters.

For complete clarification though, when awarding a luck increase to characters, for a thief/halfling, is it:

a) an increase to their full (original) luck score - which means they will inevitably have an “enormous battery” of luck points because they will only ever increase, and never decrease permanent luck, or

b) an increase to their current luck score - which means it’s a valueless and meaningless “reward” because they would have healed that overnight anyway, thus making the choice of thief a much less attractive option?

Following on from that, if the answer to above is B, then the timing of awarding a luck increase reward is critical, is it not?
If it’s rewarded as the bad guy falls to the ground, bringing the evil empire’s plan to a halt, then thieves will deliberately attempt to not burn luck in that encounter, as any luck “reward” is no reward at all for them. If however, the luck increase is awarded days or weeks afterwards, when the new king recognises the triumphant characters in a crowd-thronging ceremony, then the thief/halfling will inevitably become the luck battery you mentioned. Any thoughts here?

Next, if you are reducing luck for characters through “story means”, does that mean you specifically have to say “this is a non-healable reduction” for thieves and halflings? (As otherwise they will just heal it back up again)

Finally, regarding halflings expending luck to aid their allies on Pages 60-61:
Quote:
The halfling’s Luck modifier can apply to any roll made by an ally: attack rolls, damage rolls, saves, spell checks, thief skills, and so on

Can you confirm if the word modifier is wrong and should be bonus or luck expended or something similar?

To quote Bilgewriggler:
Quote:
Read literally, the sentence means that, in addition to being able to expend luck on an ally's behalf, the halfling can actually add his Luck modifier to allies' rolls at will. That would mean that a party that included a halfling with a Luck score of 18 would have a permanent +3 to all their rolls unless the halfling spent some of his luck and reduced his current Luck so that his modifier dropped


This was talked through and assumed not to be the case, but confirmation would be grand!


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 Post subject: Re: Regaining Luck
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:22 am 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot
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Location: Northern WV
Awesome. Thanks for making everything crystal clear Mr. Goodman.


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 Post subject: Re: Regaining Luck
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:41 am 
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Captain Punka wrote:
In any case, IMO this is an area of the rules that are sufficiently vague and subject to abuse, so it would be very helpful to the community if the game designers weigh in on it.


Not sure we need an official weigh in, that is one of the perks of DCC RPG - things are left up to the judge's interpretation to do with as we please. Enjoy and embrace the freedom! How do you think it should work? Go with that.

With that said, now that I finally have several sessions into an actual campaign as opposed to the one-shots I was running a few months ago, I am capping luck at the initial roll. So if a character regains luck at the end of the adventure you cannot move above your initial score as a normal course of regaining luck.

Now that isn't to say a character can't increase their luck. Maybe there is a quest. Maybe they rolled very, very well through a tricky situation (like one of those times when they have to roll a 20 to pull of a daring maneuver and they do!) and their patron decides to boost their actual luck score max permanently. Or maybe they found a magic ritual that will increase their luck score permanently.

That is how I am playing it in my game.


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 Post subject: Re: Regaining Luck
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:49 am 
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If I am understanding Mr. Goodman, a Thief or Halfling who takes a Luck penalty has his base value reset at the new, post-penalty level, and thus cannot "heal" that lost Luck.

That would solve the problem that my reading was also intended to solve (sky-rocketing Halfling and Thief Luck, where penalties are "healed" but bonuses kept), and I think that I will adopt it for my own games.

_________________
SoBH pbp:

Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.


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 Post subject: Re: Regaining Luck
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 9:09 am 
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Mighty-Thewed Reaver

Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:53 am
Posts: 379
Merl wrote:
Joseph, thanks for that clarification - this'll certainly help me a lot as I have for the first time a thief in my current crop of characters.

For complete clarification though, when awarding a luck increase to characters, for a thief/halfling, is it:

a) an increase to their full (original) luck score - which means they will inevitably have an “enormous battery” of luck points because they will only ever increase, and never decrease permanent luck, or



I think it's pretty clear from what he wrote already. I suspect people are over-thinking this a bit.

If a thief rolls 12 luck at creation his current maximum score is 12. He can burn luck but will heal back to his maximum of 12. For example, if during the game he has burnt down to a score of 6 but manages to seal the dark portal below town and gains karmic favour, the DM may decide to raise his luck +1. His new maximum is 13 and he would have a score of 7.

Let's say before the next session he has had enough down time to heal his luck back to full, he would begin the game with 13 luck. If during that adventure he burns 5 luck (leaving him with 8 ) and then offends the local witch who places a hex upon him that permanently reduces his luck score by 2, he would have a current score of 6 (8-2) and a maximum score of 11 (13-2). If he rests up before his next adventure and heals his luck to full, he will begin that game with a score of 11.


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 Post subject: Re: Regaining Luck
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 11:06 pm 
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Cold-Hearted Immortal

Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2002 2:41 pm
Posts: 2682
Location: San Jose, CA
Some of the "errata" feedback I got at one point was that DCC RPG doesn't include stats for many of the mundane objects that 0-level characters start with. For example, no stats for a shovel. If I sold you guys a page of stats for shovels and other mundane items, then I would be disrespecting your talents as judges, and frankly producing material that will never be used in play. I dislike games that produce thousands of pages of material, when you only need a fraction of that material to play. For that reason DCC RPG will always be heavily focused on PLAYABLE material. A certain portion of all subjects will be left open to judge discretion (e.g., shovel stats). If a good judge can figure it out, then the game doesn't need rules for it. In the 1970's and early 1980's we could run the whole game on 64 pages or less...so much of modern RPG rules writing is not needed for the actual PLAY of the game.

That is the philosophical answer to some of the questions here. The more pragmatic answer is: in DCC RPG, judges have complete control over monster stats and "greater powers." PCs exploiting Luck rules? Send a Luck-eating monster after them! Have the gods bring down vengeance! Send in an angry patron! Have Lady Luck claim the character for her retinue! All power is in the hand of the judge. There simply should not be a scenario where the players are able to exploit the Luck rules for any length of time.

Luck has some pretty large gray areas in the rules as written, which is perfectly okay. That's a feature, not a bug. Make it work for your game. I actually flip-flop between different ways of using it...sometimes I have the players roll under their Luck scores, other times I assign a DC and have them roll their modifier against that DC. Kinda depends on the situation. I think I wrote it in the rules as "roll under" but make it work for you.

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Joseph Goodman
Goodman Games
www.goodman-games.com


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 Post subject: Re: Regaining Luck
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:01 am 
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Always a good philosophy!

Good post, Joseph.

_________________
SoBH pbp:

Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.


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 Post subject: Re: Regaining Luck
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:35 am 
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Location: Atlanta, GA
goodmangames wrote:
If I sold you guys a page of stats for shovels and other mundane items, then I would be disrespecting your talents as judges, and frankly producing material that will never be used in play.


This! And:

goodmangames wrote:
I dislike games that produce thousands of pages of material, when you only need a fraction of that material to play. For that reason DCC RPG will always be heavily focused on PLAYABLE material.


This!

+11111111111

_________________

RoM pbp:
Hamun Ry (Wiz 4)
Str 10 Agi 15 (+1) Sta 11 Per 11 Int 17 (+2) Luc 10 (Unholy House). Align: C. AC: 14. HP: 13. Melee +1, Ranged +2. Crit: d8, I. Save: Ref +5, Fort +3, Will +4.
Spells: 1: Choking Cloud, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic (odd crystal growths), Magic Missile (mirror images), Runic Alphabet (Mortal) (ravenously hungry), Ventriloquism (rain of frogs)
2: Detect Invisible, Levitate (extremely difficult, d14), Mirror Image (20% chance to raise/lower luck by 1d3 points).
Equip: Ring of the Sand Djinn: +2 AC/saves, Invisibility for 1min/spellburn point, or unmake for great, unknown effect. Padded Armor, Longsword, Longbow, quiver w/20 steel-tipped arrows, 10 silver-tipped arrows, backpack, spellbook, quill and ink, sturdy parchment (10 sheets), 5 days rations, high leather boots, belt w/ belt pouch, gray robe, dark gray hooded cloak. Also carries 3 small mechanical toys: wind-up mouse, wooden puzzle cube, small jewelry box that plays a little tune.


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 Post subject: Re: Regaining Luck
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:40 am 
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Deft-Handed Cutpurse
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goodmangames wrote:
For that reason DCC RPG will always be heavily focused on PLAYABLE material. A certain portion of all subjects will be left open to judge discretion ...


Huzzah! Great post! I definitely appreciate having the "gray areas" left in the game so we can have fun playing in them.


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 Post subject: Re: Regaining Luck
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:20 am 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:14 am
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Location: Cube Farm of Alien Geometry
Thanks for the ruling, Joseph. As I see it then it could lead to the Ravencrowking's issue. But the gm needs to counteract that with luck modifiers in play. I like my own house rule that the the healing luck max is either your starting score or 8+level, whichever is higher, after all luck penalties/modifiers are applied. This allows higher level characters to be more lucky, as they probably should be.


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 Post subject: Re: Regaining Luck
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:41 am 
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cthulhudarren wrote:
Thanks for the ruling, Joseph. As I see it then it could lead to the Ravencrowking's issue.


Not assuming that the Thief and Halfling cannot "regenerate" Luck penalties. It is the combination of unlimited healing, and unlimited raises, that can cause a problem. Joseph limits "healing" so that a -1 penalty to Luck on an 11 Luck Halfling now means that the Halfling can only "heal" Luck to 10.

The amps go up to 11; the Halfling does not.

That should work without a hitch.

_________________
SoBH pbp:

Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.


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 Post subject: Re: Regaining Luck
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:21 am 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

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Location: Cube Farm of Alien Geometry
Raven_Crowking wrote:
cthulhudarren wrote:
Thanks for the ruling, Joseph. As I see it then it could lead to the Ravencrowking's issue.


Not assuming that the Thief and Halfling cannot "regenerate" Luck penalties.


And they shouldn't until the penalty is removed. For example the penalties could be timed and the expiration date is met. 7 years bad luck for breaking a mirror, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Regaining Luck
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:22 am 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

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Raven_Crowking wrote:
The amps go up to 11;.


I have one that does this, I build it myself!


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 Post subject: Re: Regaining Luck
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:35 am 
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cthulhudarren wrote:
Raven_Crowking wrote:
cthulhudarren wrote:
Thanks for the ruling, Joseph. As I see it then it could lead to the Ravencrowking's issue.


Not assuming that the Thief and Halfling cannot "regenerate" Luck penalties.


And they shouldn't until the penalty is removed. For example the penalties could be timed and the expiration date is met. 7 years bad luck for breaking a mirror, etc.


Sure, but then there is no penalty, and said Halfling's "base Luck" is 11 again.

_________________
SoBH pbp:

Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.


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 Post subject: Re: Regaining Luck
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:50 am 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

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Posts: 456
Location: Cube Farm of Alien Geometry
Raven_Crowking wrote:
Sure, but then there is no penalty, and said Halfling's "base Luck" is 11 again.


yes. The penalty is gone. Like if you are taking a -2 luck penalty for using a vorpal sword, it never goes away until the sword is gone from your possession.

It seems like your character sheet may need some accounting columns for luck to keep track.


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 Post subject: Re: Regaining Luck
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:16 pm 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer

Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2009 5:54 pm
Posts: 21
Thanks for hoping on! All of this makes sense, and of course we're free to fiddle.

jT


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 Post subject: Re: Regaining Luck
PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 2:37 pm 
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Steely-Eyed Heathen-Slayer
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Raven_Crowking wrote:
and I don't think that anyone here was actually trying to convert others to the One True Way of DCC.


Damn! Just as I was going to post about the One True Way...

_________________
Maledict Brothbreath, level 4 warrior, STR 16 (+2) AGI 7 (-1) STA 12 PER 9 INT 10 LUCK 15 (+1), AC: 16 Refl: +1 Fort: +2 Will: +1; lawful; Armor of the Lion and Lily's Blade.

Brother Sufferus, level 4 cleric, STR 13 (+1) AGI 15 (+1) STA 11 PER 13 (+1) INT 10 LUCK 9, AC: 11 (13 if wounded, 15 if down to half hit points), Refl: +3 Fort: +2 Will: +3, chaotic, Robe of the Faith, Scourge of the Maimed One, Darts of Pain.


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