Goodman Games

Good point.

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Gnome Boy (a.k.a. "Jon") • DCC play-tester @ DDC 35, Feb 2011. • Beta DL 2111, 7:00 AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since 1977 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters - Holds the power to play gnomes at will!

Here Be DCC Monsters...

General Yoros, Warrior, Str 13, Agl 8 (10), Stm 17, Per 13, Int 11, Lck 8; Law, HP 39, AC 17, R+2, F+4, W+2, band/shld, warhammer, longsword, longbow, pitchfork

Han Dee, (Weaver) Neutral Thief, Str 10, Agi 13, Stm 11, Per 11, Int 15, Lck 14, AC 13 (Leather), HP 25, Luck Die d6, Backstab 3, Sneak Silently 10, Hide In Shadows 9, Pick Pocket 10, Climb Sheer 10, Pick Lock 9, Find Trap 9, Disable Trap 9, Forge Doc 10, Disguise 3, Read Lang 5, Handle Poison 3, Cast Scroll d14+2, birth augur (Born under the loom) +1 to all skill checks (including thief skills), Banepicks (auto pick lock/disable trap, but lose 1d3 random ability loss, if a 3 then 1 pt is perm)

I can see halflings being a power gamer race because of their special Luck ability. I allowed somebody in my regular group to play a halfling wizard and he's already tried to spend Luck in conjunction with Spellburn thinking that Luck will return 1 point/day along with his Spellburned ability scores.
Pairing the races with classes as written is a mistake.

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mmm, not really. The point isn't about this specific example that I contrived on the spot which may not be the greatest. The point is that there ARE cases where other classes would undoubtedly be more fun for everyone. I don't know, how about a dwarf whose only stat with a positive modifier is Personality? Why not let the player play him as a cleric instead of just being another throw away? I can't imagine a world where dwarves don't have clerics in their societies. I guess to some people, allowing someone to play to a strength is min/maxing, but then why let anyone decide what class they want to be, why not make the humans randomly roll for class as well?

I also don't follow the arguement that allowing this rare occasional class choices will somehow create a gold rush to play demi-humans. I would still plan on using the starting occupation chart, so there would still be the exact same probability of playing a demi-human.

I think the spirit of any rules system worth playing is to keep it enjoyable. I don't see how allowing the one-in-a-hundred case of a character playing a standard class with a demi-human does anything but create a memorable character that's fun to play. I'm sure people disagree with that assessment, but I guess it's all up to the individual judge to determine what style of game he wants to run, which I think we can all agree is definitely within the spirit of the rules as written.

Anyway, I appreciate the perspectives, thanks for your responses.

Well, like I said upthread, FNR (Fear No Rule).

Speaking for myself, I've always preferred flawed characters, and working around their deficiencies makes for good roleplay.

And, how do you know the 'weaker' option handed you by the rules is going to be less fun to play? I mean, yes, I have seen people unhappy with their character, I know what that's about; by I've also seen people come to enjoy a character greatly, that they weren't thrilled with at the start. Overcoming obstacles is the essence of RPGs. Why not play clever with this one, too?

But, if someone wants to play a Dwarf Cleric, I would heartily recommend creating a new class for them -- just layering things and going down that road might lead to madness...

YMMV.

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Gnome Boy (a.k.a. "Jon") • DCC play-tester @ DDC 35, Feb 2011. • Beta DL 2111, 7:00 AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since 1977 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters - Holds the power to play gnomes at will!

Here Be DCC Monsters...

General Yoros, Warrior, Str 13, Agl 8 (10), Stm 17, Per 13, Int 11, Lck 8; Law, HP 39, AC 17, R+2, F+4, W+2, band/shld, warhammer, longsword, longbow, pitchfork

Han Dee, (Weaver) Neutral Thief, Str 10, Agi 13, Stm 11, Per 11, Int 15, Lck 14, AC 13 (Leather), HP 25, Luck Die d6, Backstab 3, Sneak Silently 10, Hide In Shadows 9, Pick Pocket 10, Climb Sheer 10, Pick Lock 9, Find Trap 9, Disable Trap 9, Forge Doc 10, Disguise 3, Read Lang 5, Handle Poison 3, Cast Scroll d14+2, birth augur (Born under the loom) +1 to all skill checks (including thief skills), Banepicks (auto pick lock/disable trap, but lose 1d3 random ability loss, if a 3 then 1 pt is perm)

My most recent blog post is about this topic.

I too wrinkled my nose at the concept of race as class when I first saw DCC RPG. After playing it, I realized this implication is a mainstay of pulp fantasy, whereas other games that allow any mixture is high fantasy.

In high fantasy, the racial archetypes are less pronounced. For example, not every Orc is a savage warmongerer and the existence of half-orcs means that somewhere humans saw this and welcomed them in.

In DCC RPG, and other pulp universes, those archetypes do exist. Demi-humans are rare, fantastic creatures who even more rarely take to (or survive) the road of adventure.

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My Gaming Blog: The Earthlight Academy
http://earthlightacademy.blogspot.com/

Very well put.

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Gnome Boy (a.k.a. "Jon") • DCC play-tester @ DDC 35, Feb 2011. • Beta DL 2111, 7:00 AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since 1977 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters - Holds the power to play gnomes at will!

Here Be DCC Monsters...

General Yoros, Warrior, Str 13, Agl 8 (10), Stm 17, Per 13, Int 11, Lck 8; Law, HP 39, AC 17, R+2, F+4, W+2, band/shld, warhammer, longsword, longbow, pitchfork

Han Dee, (Weaver) Neutral Thief, Str 10, Agi 13, Stm 11, Per 11, Int 15, Lck 14, AC 13 (Leather), HP 25, Luck Die d6, Backstab 3, Sneak Silently 10, Hide In Shadows 9, Pick Pocket 10, Climb Sheer 10, Pick Lock 9, Find Trap 9, Disable Trap 9, Forge Doc 10, Disguise 3, Read Lang 5, Handle Poison 3, Cast Scroll d14+2, birth augur (Born under the loom) +1 to all skill checks (including thief skills), Banepicks (auto pick lock/disable trap, but lose 1d3 random ability loss, if a 3 then 1 pt is perm)

I see what you mean about the demi-humans being fantastic and rare, but there's a 30% chance any character is a demi-human. I think I'll have players roll again after getting a demi-human class to see if they are a human of that class, like a 50% chance after the roll. This way they'd be even more rare and you might actually see a human glassblower or two. Also even halflings with luck and ag 6 are pretty decent fighters, even if they have bad stats for their racial class.

I don't know about "decent fighters" w/ Agi 6 and Luck 6 ... Yeah they can dual wield, but base AC of 8 isn't particularly fearsome. In fact, it's downright "not good." (God help you if you roll Charmed House for your Lucky roll, too, heh...) And you can't use a shield to get a little boost, if you're going to be hanging your hat on the dual-wielding ability. Let's not overstate the case, here.

I like the take that Adventurer Conqueror King has on this. Basically, they went from the "race as class" side, and said "Why would demihumans follow the same careers as humans?". But, to add more flexibility, they have a couple of classes for the demihumans.

Dwarves can be fighter-y, or fighter/cleric-y. Elves can be fighter/wizard-y or thief/wizard-y. I think it would be fairly easy to do the same thing for DCC. I like the idea that arcane magic is such a basic part of Elven culture that they would carry it with them whatever path they follow. Dwarves would always lean a bit towards fighting, and halflings would always lean a bit towards being sneaky.

To me, it seems you're wrecking the flavor of the old school
game by allowing the rule changes. Basically you're just
evolving the game to AD&D, so why not play a game that
already has the evolved rules as opposed to having to
tailor the rules of the old way? I think in the old school
way, the DMs were strict & allowed little change.

How I would address it, is just let the guy roll up a
human Wizard of the same level as the Halfling, hand
the Halfling's spell books over to the Wizard then
turn the Halfling into an NPC. Seems better than
establishing equal rights for demi-humans.

edit

But that doesn't address the player who wants to be a halfling wizard.
Or the player who wants to be an elf cleric.

I have two players in my game and that's what they're playing because that's what they wanted to play. I tweaked the base class a little to accommodate the abilities of the race, but it's hard to say "No" to what will make a player happy since the point of sitting around the table is to have fun and not trying to conform to somebody else's ideology of how to play the game.

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"The Shamrock Shake is a frosty, minty symbol of all that we hold dear. It is shameful that we as a people cannot enjoy this proud, symbolic beverage any more than one week a year. Unless the British government loosens its iron grip on this most Irish of shakes, the streets will once again run red with English blood." - Gerry Adams, leader of Sinn Fein, the IRA's political wing.

That really depended on the DM. Some people took it seriously when the 1st Ed. AD&D DMG said that, basically, if you changed the rules, you weren't playing D&D. In my experience, it was much more common for DMs to have extensive house rules based on personal and player preferences. In fact, I don't think I personally knew anyone who played a RAW game until 3rd edition came out.

Suggesting that anyone is "wrecking" anything by using house rules kind of irritates me, to be honest. There isn't a "badwrong" way to play an RPG.

Ok I will try to give my opinion and sorry for my english.

In your case I will stay with the basics class for the halfing and for the Elf.

If you forget all about clerics rules and how cleric magic works, in roleplaying term Elf is already a kind of cleric because he have a partron that give power. So create maybe create an interesting patron.

For the halfling it's a like a quest. Be the first halfling wizard. The halfling is an halfling but spellbooks give him the possiblity to try to cast spell but maybe with a d7 (or another) for spell check.

If you try from the start to change core rules of DCC, it's maybe not the right game for your group.

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I went with allowing all of the races to transition to any of the basic classes when they hit 1st level while only the specific race can take its racial class. If a dwarf, elf, or halfling chooses any class other than their racial class, they retain the racial abilities and disadvantages they had at 0-level and never gain any additional racial abilities.

I don't feel like that compromises the spirit of the game in any way, while it opens more options for my players to have the exact flavor combination they desire for their characters. Although I think they would be crazy to forgo having a lucky halfling in their party, it's up to them if they'd rather have a really short cleric with infravision and no shoes.

This isn't half bad, but it does mean that demi humans will always be >> humans. Well, maybe not >>, but certainly >.

Yeah, to a point, but it's a small advantage, it does come with a small disadvantage (less move or weakness to iron), and some possible social stigmas.

In my campaign Elves and Dwarves are going to be rare, so PCs aren't allowed to play those races until they are discovered in game.

I guess if you are worried about balance, you could force them to permanently burn a certain amount of luck to choose a non-racial class. Call it a penalty from the Gods for bucking tradition.

For me as a DM if the player really wants something not written in the book it will be on an individual basis. For instance if a player wants a monk then that's a short variation of warrior that's easy to handle. An off shoot of the racials is a bit different.

In my games I look at it as cultures have grown affinities towards certain things and that's where the classes come from. Human wizards have studied for generations whereas Elves have casual relationships with patron's therefore they are different.

I recently thought of a halfling wizard idea where his magic is based off of luck instead of intelligence. It would base off of the lucky nature of the halfling race and then you don't give the player the luck abilities from the halfling class.

It really ends up being a DM choice. I think in a campaign I just started I would have the player roll up the demi-human as normal and let him roleplay his way into a different class. Then they start gaining minor abilities within that class and maybe that turns into becoming a full fledged cleric or wizard etc.. I'd also allow a good background to sway my view though. Maybe a human grew up with dwarves and when he hits level 1 he would level as a dwarf because his life has been the dwarven life despite what his real race is.

In the end I think the right answer has to be... It Depends.

why dont you make halflings quest to become a wizard an integral part of your adventures? she has found two books but she would need a mentor in arcane arts. it could be an old and wicked wizard living in the howling tower or monstrous hag, mother of the race, teaching dweomers to those that brave gnoll infested wastes to come to her. and there would be a small matter of paying for it. maybe they would demand number of services even before they decide to consider halfling miscreant as a worthy student. maybe halfling could pay with her extraordinary luck or maybe by giving away her shadow (and with it mysteriously her stealth) thus gradually exchanging halfling class/race traits with wizardly ones.

in that way you would give your player something even better: a quest to become a wizard.

I don't see why it's problem to separate race from class, in fact it's pretty simple. Like, really simple. Just separate racial abilities & class features, just do it, especially if that's the game you want to play. Just don't expect someone else to do the work for you. Though most of us GM/DM/Judge types actually enjoy the work involved with customizing the games we play, i.e. house rules.

I personally wouldn't separate them because I actually subscribe to the reasoning behind the basic ,i.e. typical adventuring classes as they are. There is plenty of stuff written about the reasoning behind it, etc, so I won't go into it. But after playing every version of D&D, and playing tons of "skill" based games (where you can literally make any kind of hybrid multi-class-ish characters you want) I actually prefer the simplicity of basic classes. And honestly Halfling Wizards don't make sense to me. But if one of my players wanted one, I'd make them do most the work and provide a bit of help.

Consider this, in OD&D Halflings & Dwarves couldn't be [Arcane] magic-users because they were innately resistant to magic, it just didn't work well for them. While Elves were intune with magic, and are able to use magic AND wield weapons, unlike Man, who could only focus on one or the other. This was the nature or law of things in Gygax's world. And therefore became traditional and staple in D&D and it's derivatives. And I subscribe to this model, because it just makes sense to me. But it doesn't have to be in your campaign.

On that note, If I were to make additional demi-human classes I'd take a cue from ACKS, and create separate classes. I would call the standard dwarf a Dwarf Fighter. The standard Elf an Elven Sword-mage and the Halfling a Halfling Burglar. Then I create a Dwarven Priest, that has Dwarven Racial abilites and Cleric class features. A Dark Elf, which has the addition of Thief features but some arbitrary penalty like light intolerance. Still wouldn't do a halfling wizard though. Maybe a wilder halfling, like a Dirt or Grunge Halfling or something - they'd be like former cannibal pigmy types.

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"[...] there is no doubt that Dungeons and Dragons and its imitators are right out of the pit of hell." - William Schnoebelen, Straight talk on Dungeons & Dragons

This is my approach for any situation where a character finds something they may not be able to immediately use -- or a halfling that wants to be a wizard, or a warrior that wants to become a monk, etc. Work it out in the story -- don't houserule anything. House ruling implies that every character any time could take the same path to reach the same goal, and that's just not the way it should work, in my opinion.

Consider the wizard (class and character) -- the wizard class allows certain parameters (hit points, spells per level, etc). This doesn't mean that Zer'hain the wizard (level 3) looks even remotely like Mephisto the wizard (level 3). Each has taken a very different path, had very different experiences, and thus has had very different results to their fundamental "wizard class." Zer'hain found a fountain that increases her hit points and binds her to a water demon. Her patron has granted her a "free" spell for freeing a powerful water spirit from an elemental prison in Stonedeath. The resulting corruption, however, has caused her to drip water for days after casting this new spell.

Mephisto, on the other hand, contracted a rare disease that he cannot seem to cure which has drained his Stamina (and thus hit points). His patron is a minor forest spirit that only grants a few abilities when invoked, and due to his low intelligence, only has a couple of useful spells. Yet, after being held prisoner by the ape-men of Firosia, he was accepted into the tribe and taught how to shoot a semi-magical device called a "carbine." On his resulting adventures with the ape-men, he gained a magical talisman that protects him from all mind-influencing magic and due to slaying the Queen of the Slugmen, all slugmen now consider him to be a demi-god.

The story of the character should prevail. Don't complicate the game with more houserules -- or give players an easy way -- it's much more interesting to have a character develop into the thing that the player most desires -- not just roll it up. If a player wants his character to be able to "do something else," give the character a path, make the difficulty (time, pain, money, etc) line up with the desire.

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Maledict Brothbreath, level 4 warrior, STR 16 (+2) AGI 7 (-1) STA 12 PER 9 INT 10 LUCK 15 (+1), AC: 16 Refl: +1 Fort: +2 Will: +1; lawful; Armor of the Lion and Lily's Blade.

Brother Sufferus, level 4 cleric, STR 13 (+1) AGI 15 (+1) STA 11 PER 13 (+1) INT 10 LUCK 9, AC: 11 (13 if wounded, 15 if down to half hit points), Refl: +3 Fort: +2 Will: +3, chaotic, Robe of the Faith, Scourge of the Maimed One, Darts of Pain.

We've been mulling this over in our game. I certainly like the racial classes, but the fact that they are mandatory if you roll a demi-human on the occupation chart doesn't work for my group. Our house rule is that the racial classes are special options only open to players who roll that demi-human on the occupation chart, but these demi-humans could also choose from any of the four core classes. They would only get the racial benefits of a level 0 demi-human if they went with the core class and not the racial class. We made this rule after we had elf with a 17 personality and a 10 int. Its just what we do and it works for us.

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while i think that everybody should do what is fun for him and his group i also feel that dcc as written should be tried.

just like rolling for starting career in wfrp.

I have separated race and class in my campaign, because I have promotions for every class and a shitload of races available for players. Although players can choose race in my campaign they always roll on my race chart and we've seen some pretty interesting, weird and silly characters. We had the ninth session yesterday, right now there are a few level 1 characters (avian warrior, human warrior, halfling cleric, dwarf cleric, human wizard, human wizard), a level 2 character (goblin thief) and a bunch of zeroes, because there are almost always some casualties and you always start at zero.

Since we don't care much about balance (and neither does DCC) it worked pretty well so far.

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Current campaign: Terminus DCC RPG

Hi, new to the game but a big fan. My two biggest "Huhs?" on the issue were:

A) Whereas humans could gravitate toward a class appropriate for their attributes, all of our pre-gen demi-humans seemed to truly SUCK at what they were supposed to be good at. Your dwarf has crap strength and stamina? Well, he's a sucky warrior. And what are the odds that your elf has a good Int? What we discovered was that whereas humans who survived tended to be fairly okay, the majority of adventuring demi-humans in the word would just be really lame at their jobs. That seemed odd.

B) Funnel-to-1st-level disconnect. I can see halflings being "0-level" commoners when they start, and then getting badass ... but long-lived elves and dwarves seem to start as 0-level nothings and then at level 1 suddenly gain all this prowess and experience that can't be too easily explained. Especially elves, whose description claims that they've lived so long they've made all kinds of connections with otherworldly beings already. So, umm, why aren't they calling in those favors during the funnel?

So, here's what I came up with to address both issues (which I think also solves the side issue of players of elf/dwarf/halfling WANTING to be something other than their racial class ... if they choose the demi-human option, it's with the assumption and knowledge that they're taking their character in a certain direction if they survive the funnel). The house rule also sets up demi-human commonality to the ratio I imagine for most fantasy worlds (halflings fairly common, then dwarves, elves rarest of all). This step comes after ability scores are determined but before occupation is rolled.

Step 3a: Choose Race. Most characters are human. However, those who generate certain scores MAY choose to be demi-humans. This comes with benefits and drawbacks. Demi-humans do not roll for occupation and, if they survive the funnel, automatically take levels in their race class.
Demihuman Requirements
Luck 14+ Unprepared halfling
Stam 15+, Luck <9 Outcast dwarf
Int 16+, None <10 Ennui-ridden elf

Unprepared Halfling: How did you even get here? You are terrified out of your wits. Occupation skills include all things domestic and agricultural. Begin play with a gardening tool (as club, staff, or dagger), an exemplar piece of produce, and a prize farm animal (goose, pig, sheep, etc.).

Outcast Dwarf: Outcast, lost, or cursed, only dwarves with terrible luck would end up in the hated "world above." Would-be dwarves (i.e., characters with a Stamina of 15 or more) may sacrifice starting luck in order to qualify; for every 3 points you sacrifice, increase starting Str or Sta by 1. Occupation skills include all things crafting and mining. Begin play with a warhammer and shield, though you refuse to use your well-honed warrior abilities, like shield bashing or feats of arms, until level 1 (you deserve to die, after all).

Ennui-Ridden Elf: You are slumming in a last attempt to rekindle your zest for a nearly immortal life. Occupation skills include all things natural and historical. While you have vaunted magical might and a lifetime of martial training, you cannot bring yourself to use any of it until overcoming your ennui (reaching level 1). Begin play with a mithril longsword, a longbow, and 2d6 arrows.