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 Post subject: Deed Die rolls
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:22 pm 
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Ill-Fated Peasant

Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:08 pm
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First time poster, recent acquirer of the rules and modules. Thanks to all who wrote and playtested! I am currently reading and rereading the rules, and writing some "cheat sheets" to use in play sessions.

I wish to check if I understand Mighty Deeds of Arms correctly.

Page 42 describes the deed die being rolled with the attack roll. If a warrior has multiple attacks in a round, the deed die result from the first attack of the round also applies to subsequent attacks that round. So, as written, if the deed die with the first attack is a 3+, then any subsequent successful attack that round will also be successful MDoA (if the player declares her intention for it to be considered as such).

Is this how MDoA's were treated in playtesting and by judges currently?

My initial reaction would be to re-roll the deed die with each attack roll, but I would be interested to hear others' experiences of how the Rules As Written work in actual play, and how it compares to re-rerolling the deed die with each attack.

Edit: On the other hand, the table on p44 indicates that the deed die is rolled with each attack, which makes more sense.


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 Post subject: Re: Deed Die rolls
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 9:58 pm 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer
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I believe it's intended that the deed die is rolled once each round, and if the character has multiple actions, the same deed die result applies to all of them.
However, you're right, it is unclear. In fact, re-reading it now, the rulebook completely contradicts itself:

P42:
Quote:
When the warrior has multiple attacks at higher levels, the same deed die applies to all attacks in the same combat round.

P44:
Quote:
A warrior’s attack modifier is rolled anew, according to the appropriate die, with each attack


Hmmm...

We've played it with the deed die rolled once, and applying to all attacks in the same round.


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 Post subject: Re: Deed Die rolls
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:29 am 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

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Location: Cube Farm of Alien Geometry
If it is the same deed die roll and the character has multiple attacks, then they could get multiple Mighty Deeds in one round? Doesn't seem right to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Deed Die rolls
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 9:01 am 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot

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My interpretation is that while the warrior rolls a new deed die modifier for each attack ("modifier is rolled anew"), only one of them counts as his MDoA for the round, hence "same deed die applies to all attacks" for purposes of whether the MDoA stunt actually succeeds.


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 Post subject: Re: Deed Die rolls
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 2:10 pm 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:14 am
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Location: Cube Farm of Alien Geometry
Right now I'm leaning towards:

Roll deed die once per round, no matter how many action dice.
Regardless of success or failure of these attacks, a maximum of one great deed is possible a round.


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 Post subject: Re: Deed Die rolls
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 5:20 pm 
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Ill-Fated Peasant

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Posts: 6
Hmmm. I hd not considered the possibility (?desirability) of multiple MDoAs each round. Giving the dramatic, even melodramatic, nature of MDoAs, I would have difficulty seeing a PC perform two within 10 seconds. If your warrior really wants to do something that dramatic, the judge could choose to declare it a single MDoA with an increased difficulty.

I think my ruling for local games will be:
* Deed die for attack and damage bonus is rerolled with each attack.
* Once per round, before the attack and deed rolls are made, the warrior may announce an attempt to make a MDoA. If so, the deed die for that attack determines whether the MDoA succeeds (assuming a successful hit).

Cheers,
KenB


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 Post subject: Re: Deed Die rolls
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:06 pm 
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Hard-Bitten Adventurer

Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:07 pm
Posts: 157
hmm interesting discussion. So what about fighting with two weapons?


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 Post subject: Re: Deed Die rolls
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:15 pm 
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Ill-Fated Peasant

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Posts: 6
Urrrgh - hadn't even considered that... Perhaps the best answer is to kill off all the warriors before they get decent deed dice or multiple actions!

More seriously, the Rules As Written would imply that either:

a) a single deed die is used throughout the entire round, in which case that deed die applies to both weapons just as much as it does to multiple attacks with a single weapon; or alternatively,

b) the deed die is re-rolled with each attack roll, whether with each of two weapons, or with multiple attack from a single weapon.

Personally, I still see MDoAs as a round-long "crowning moment of awesome" combo attack, and thus limited to one per round, regardless of number of weapons used or number of multiple actions available. As gonzo as DCC is, having a warrior make 6 successful MDoAs (3 with each of the main and off-hand weapon) in a single 10 second round is a little ridiculous.


Cheers,
KenB.


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 Post subject: Re: Deed Die rolls
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:25 pm 
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Cold-Hearted Immortal
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Valerian J Vortex wrote:
...with each of two weapons...

Eeew, I don't think the Deed Die -- whatever anyone's other interpretations might be -- should ever be rolled for both rolls with two weapon fighting.

And let's not forget that even if you use the "1-Deed-Die-roll per round" method -- those attack roll(s) have to hit the target for the Deed(s) to be successful. Okay, so a Warrior maxes out his Deed Die for any given round; that doesn't mean each attack automatically has a successful Deed go with it. And of course, if the Deed Die fails on that round, they get no Deeds at all...

_________________
Gnome Boy (a.k.a. "Jon") • DCC play-tester @ DDC 35, Feb 2011. • Beta DL 2111, 7:00 AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since 1977 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters - Holds the power to play gnomes at will!

Here Be DCC Monsters...

General Yoros, Warrior, Str 13, Agl 8 (10), Stm 17, Per 13, Int 11, Lck 8; Law, HP 39, AC 17, R+2, F+4, W+2, band/shld, warhammer, longsword, longbow, pitchfork

Han Dee, (Weaver) Neutral Thief, Str 10, Agi 13, Stm 11, Per 11, Int 15, Lck 14, AC 13 (Leather), HP 25, Luck Die d6, Backstab 3, Sneak Silently 10, Hide In Shadows 9, Pick Pocket 10, Climb Sheer 10, Pick Lock 9, Find Trap 9, Disable Trap 9, Forge Doc 10, Disguise 3, Read Lang 5, Handle Poison 3, Cast Scroll d14+2, birth augur (Born under the loom) +1 to all skill checks (including thief skills), Banepicks (auto pick lock/disable trap, but lose 1d3 random ability loss, if a 3 then 1 pt is perm)


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 Post subject: Re: Deed Die rolls
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:13 am 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:14 am
Posts: 467
Location: Cube Farm of Alien Geometry
Another question...

How come the deed die scales to eventually add fixed +1, +2, +3, etc? Why should MDoA always succeed (on a hit)? Level 10 is legendary but there should always be a chance for failure. I'm curious how this evolved.

The static pluses help for average attack and damage I guess, and the warrior DOES need to hit for the deed to be successful.

I'm just curious why it didn't scale

like:
1d12
1d14
1d16

thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: Deed Die rolls
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:22 am 
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Cold-Hearted Immortal
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cthulhudarren wrote:
Another question...

How come the deed die scales to eventually add fixed +1, +2, +3, etc? Why should MDoA always succeed (on a hit)? Level 10 is legendary but there should always be a chance for failure. I'm curious how this evolved.

The static pluses help for average attack and damage I guess, and the warrior DOES need to hit for the deed to be successful.

I'm just curious why it didn't scale

like:
1d12
1d14
1d16

thoughts?


The roll must be 3+ on the die roll (i.e., a natural 3+) for the Deed to succeed, but the Warrior gets the bonus to attack rolls and damage whether the Deed succeeds or not. Or, at least, that is how I read it/roll it.

RC

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Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.


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 Post subject: Re: Deed Die rolls
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 8:44 am 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:36 am
Posts: 525
Raven_Crowking wrote:
cthulhudarren wrote:
Another question...

How come the deed die scales to eventually add fixed +1, +2, +3, etc? Why should MDoA always succeed (on a hit)? Level 10 is legendary but there should always be a chance for failure. I'm curious how this evolved.

The static pluses help for average attack and damage I guess, and the warrior DOES need to hit for the deed to be successful.

I'm just curious why it didn't scale

like:
1d12
1d14
1d16

thoughts?


The roll must be 3+ on the die roll (i.e., a natural 3+) for the Deed to succeed, but the Warrior gets the bonus to attack rolls and damage whether the Deed succeeds or not. Or, at least, that is how I read it/roll it.

RC


That was how Mr. Goodman explained that it worked in the other thread that I can't find right now... only the natural roll is considered for the level of Deed success, but the total roll with those flat bonuses is used to determine success of the attack. He also made a comment regarding d12 through d16 Deed die, how it was done that way during part of the play testing phase, and why he chose to go with the way it ended up... I seem to recall it having something to do with swing-y-ness in results compared to other classes.


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 Post subject: Re: Deed Die rolls
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 10:44 am 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:12 pm
Posts: 108
Brainstorming here.

What if the deed die got rolled once per round and used as a total for that round?

In other words the fighter with two weapons or multiple attacks rolls a 8 on his deed die and so uses 4 points towards disarm and still has 4 points left towards the second attack if needed.

Just trying to think of a quick fair way to work it.

If a warrior wants to go all Zorro and carve two Z's into the orc stomachs who am I to disagree?


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 Post subject: Re: Deed Die rolls
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 6:57 am 
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Ill-Fated Peasant

Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:08 pm
Posts: 6
Dear Devil Swine,

I think that is a great compromise. It does impose a bit of a cap on the lower-level warrior doing MDoAs to one a turn, which ain't a bad thing. Also, if you are using the magnitude of the deed die as a rough indicator of the awesomeness of the MDoA, then a warrior with a high enough deed die result can downgrade a fracking incredible MDoA right now, for a pretty good one now, and the chance of another pretty good one (assuming the attack roll is made) against a different opponent with the second action die.

Cheers,
KenB


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 Post subject: Re: Deed Die rolls
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 7:35 am 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot
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P44:
Quote:
A warrior’s attack modifier is rolled anew, according to the appropriate die, with each attack


I think 'each attack' here is intended as 'the set of attacks each round'. Page 42 does a much thorough job of explaining the Might Deeds system, where as this blurb in the table isn't meant to explain the entirety of the mechanics. I would chalk it up to poor communication of intent.


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 Post subject: Re: Deed Die rolls
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:31 pm 
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Ill-Fated Peasant

Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2012 10:04 am
Posts: 9
Actually, we've always played you roll anew for each attack, including withdrawal attacks, but you can only do one deed per round. But now I'm curious, is it supposed to be the other way? Can we get some Goodman confirmation on this?


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 Post subject: Re: Deed Die rolls
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:52 am 
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Cold-Hearted Immortal
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I'm almost 99% sure (let's call it 98% sure) that I can remember the words from Joe's mouth being that you roll the Deed Die once and it applies to all attacks that round.

It appears if you get two Action Dice in a round, and on your first attack your Deed succeeds, you know your second Deed will succeed -- so long as your second attack roll scores a hit... Wonky? Or not? By the time you get that second Deed Die, you should be a badass on your way to even greater badassery...

_________________
Gnome Boy (a.k.a. "Jon") • DCC play-tester @ DDC 35, Feb 2011. • Beta DL 2111, 7:00 AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since 1977 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters - Holds the power to play gnomes at will!

Here Be DCC Monsters...

General Yoros, Warrior, Str 13, Agl 8 (10), Stm 17, Per 13, Int 11, Lck 8; Law, HP 39, AC 17, R+2, F+4, W+2, band/shld, warhammer, longsword, longbow, pitchfork

Han Dee, (Weaver) Neutral Thief, Str 10, Agi 13, Stm 11, Per 11, Int 15, Lck 14, AC 13 (Leather), HP 25, Luck Die d6, Backstab 3, Sneak Silently 10, Hide In Shadows 9, Pick Pocket 10, Climb Sheer 10, Pick Lock 9, Find Trap 9, Disable Trap 9, Forge Doc 10, Disguise 3, Read Lang 5, Handle Poison 3, Cast Scroll d14+2, birth augur (Born under the loom) +1 to all skill checks (including thief skills), Banepicks (auto pick lock/disable trap, but lose 1d3 random ability loss, if a 3 then 1 pt is perm)


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 Post subject: Re: Deed Die rolls
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:23 am 
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Hard-Bitten Adventurer

Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:07 pm
Posts: 157
So what about dual weapons?
One action Die or two?


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 Post subject: Re: Deed Die rolls
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:39 am 
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Rostranor wrote:
So what about dual weapons?
One action Die or two?

Dual Weapon fighting isn't giving you more Action Dice -- it's more like you're splitting your Action Die into two rolls. I can't imagine giving a second Deed because a Warrior or Dwarf picks up an off-hand weapon.

_________________
Gnome Boy (a.k.a. "Jon") • DCC play-tester @ DDC 35, Feb 2011. • Beta DL 2111, 7:00 AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since 1977 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters - Holds the power to play gnomes at will!

Here Be DCC Monsters...

General Yoros, Warrior, Str 13, Agl 8 (10), Stm 17, Per 13, Int 11, Lck 8; Law, HP 39, AC 17, R+2, F+4, W+2, band/shld, warhammer, longsword, longbow, pitchfork

Han Dee, (Weaver) Neutral Thief, Str 10, Agi 13, Stm 11, Per 11, Int 15, Lck 14, AC 13 (Leather), HP 25, Luck Die d6, Backstab 3, Sneak Silently 10, Hide In Shadows 9, Pick Pocket 10, Climb Sheer 10, Pick Lock 9, Find Trap 9, Disable Trap 9, Forge Doc 10, Disguise 3, Read Lang 5, Handle Poison 3, Cast Scroll d14+2, birth augur (Born under the loom) +1 to all skill checks (including thief skills), Banepicks (auto pick lock/disable trap, but lose 1d3 random ability loss, if a 3 then 1 pt is perm)


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 Post subject: Re: Deed Die rolls
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:07 pm 
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Hard-Bitten Adventurer

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Posts: 157
ok, so has anyone scared up the thread by Mr. Goodman where he talks about this and clearly states one deed per round?


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 Post subject: Re: Deed Die rolls
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 7:32 pm 
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Posts: 157
bitflipr wrote:
P44:
Quote:
A warrior’s attack modifier is rolled anew, according to the appropriate die, with each attack


I think 'each attack' here is intended as 'the set of attacks each round'. Page 42 does a much thorough job of explaining the Might Deeds system, where as this blurb in the table isn't meant to explain the entirety of the mechanics. I would chalk it up to poor communication of intent.


Found what I was looking for: "Because a characters off hand is usually not as strong or coordinated as his primary hand, his secondary attack rolls usually require a different deed die." pg. 95

What does that mean mechanically?

HOUSE RULE: I'm leaning towards one deed die roll per round. But I am not sure with two weapon fighting. I am thinking no criticals with the off weapon as well as no deed die at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Deed Die rolls
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 10:37 pm 
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Deft-Handed Cutpurse
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Rostranor wrote:
Found what I was looking for: "Because a characters off hand is usually not as strong or coordinated as his primary hand, his secondary attack rolls usually require a different deed die." pg. 95

What does that mean mechanically?

Oh, hmm. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the off-hand die penalty also applies to attack/damage bonus from the deed die. So if you have a lvl 5 warrior with a 14 agility and dual-wielding, then instead of using the d7 deed die result for the off-hand attack/damage, a d5 is rolled. This has no bearing on the success of the MDoA, unless it was being performed with the off-hand, in which case the d5 should have been used in the first place. Admittedly, in some instances the off-hand will have a better bonus than the primary hand, but on average it will be worse.

Then again, the word "deed" in the quoted sentence could be a simple typo and should be omitted... :?:


Last edited by Pesky on Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Deed Die rolls
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 7:38 am 
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Pesky wrote:
Then again, the word "deed" in the quoted sentence could be a simple typo and should me omitted... :?:

A suspicion of mine, as well...

_________________
Gnome Boy (a.k.a. "Jon") • DCC play-tester @ DDC 35, Feb 2011. • Beta DL 2111, 7:00 AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since 1977 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters - Holds the power to play gnomes at will!

Here Be DCC Monsters...

General Yoros, Warrior, Str 13, Agl 8 (10), Stm 17, Per 13, Int 11, Lck 8; Law, HP 39, AC 17, R+2, F+4, W+2, band/shld, warhammer, longsword, longbow, pitchfork

Han Dee, (Weaver) Neutral Thief, Str 10, Agi 13, Stm 11, Per 11, Int 15, Lck 14, AC 13 (Leather), HP 25, Luck Die d6, Backstab 3, Sneak Silently 10, Hide In Shadows 9, Pick Pocket 10, Climb Sheer 10, Pick Lock 9, Find Trap 9, Disable Trap 9, Forge Doc 10, Disguise 3, Read Lang 5, Handle Poison 3, Cast Scroll d14+2, birth augur (Born under the loom) +1 to all skill checks (including thief skills), Banepicks (auto pick lock/disable trap, but lose 1d3 random ability loss, if a 3 then 1 pt is perm)


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 Post subject: Re: Deed Die rolls
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:48 am 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer

Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:51 am
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does the bonus to hit and damage also apply to the Deed? So it's not like a trade off thing? Sacrifice the known bonus to hit and damage for MAYBE a heroic action?


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 Post subject: Re: Deed Die rolls
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 2:39 pm 
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Cold-Hearted Immortal
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nebulous wrote:
does the bonus to hit and damage also apply to the Deed? So it's not like a trade off thing? Sacrifice the known bonus to hit and damage for MAYBE a heroic action?

This is a common misconstrual of the rules for Deed. The Deed Die adds to the attack, adds to the damage, and tells you if a Deed was successful -- all at the same time.

_________________
Gnome Boy (a.k.a. "Jon") • DCC play-tester @ DDC 35, Feb 2011. • Beta DL 2111, 7:00 AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since 1977 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters - Holds the power to play gnomes at will!

Here Be DCC Monsters...

General Yoros, Warrior, Str 13, Agl 8 (10), Stm 17, Per 13, Int 11, Lck 8; Law, HP 39, AC 17, R+2, F+4, W+2, band/shld, warhammer, longsword, longbow, pitchfork

Han Dee, (Weaver) Neutral Thief, Str 10, Agi 13, Stm 11, Per 11, Int 15, Lck 14, AC 13 (Leather), HP 25, Luck Die d6, Backstab 3, Sneak Silently 10, Hide In Shadows 9, Pick Pocket 10, Climb Sheer 10, Pick Lock 9, Find Trap 9, Disable Trap 9, Forge Doc 10, Disguise 3, Read Lang 5, Handle Poison 3, Cast Scroll d14+2, birth augur (Born under the loom) +1 to all skill checks (including thief skills), Banepicks (auto pick lock/disable trap, but lose 1d3 random ability loss, if a 3 then 1 pt is perm)


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