Goodman Games

Fan Forums
It is currently Fri Oct 24, 2014 10:55 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: DCC: compatablity of 3E monsters?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 4:17 pm 
Offline
Steely-Eyed Heathen-Slayer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:23 pm
Posts: 660
Location: Montreal
I'm wondering if anyone has tried using 3E D&D monsters pretty much as is, or with little on-the-fly modifications, in their DCC games.

DCC (admitedly) uses D&D 3E as its basis. It has the same d20 system, same defense (AC) and saving throws, similar hit dice, etc...

One difference between DCC and 3E is of course the spells, so let's forget about spellcasting monsters for the time being.

The idea is that I'm homebrewing and being able to use 3E monsters with little or no work needed would be great. However, I'm not familiar with the math of DCC enough to be able to tell if it makes sense. For one thing, I seem to notice that the ACs in DCC are a bit lower, i.e. you have some 10-13 ACs where in 3E that's pretty rare.

Any thoughts?

p.s. : I'm aware that I could use 3E monsters if I want, that differences in math don't really matter for many, that balance is not an issue for everyone, etc... I'm looking for actual comparative comments here, not generic assertions that differences don't matter. Thanks :)

_________________
Maledict Brothbreath, level 4 warrior, STR 16 (+2) AGI 7 (-1) STA 12 PER 9 INT 10 LUCK 15 (+1), AC: 16 Refl: +1 Fort: +2 Will: +1; lawful; Armor of the Lion and Lily's Blade.

Brother Sufferus, level 4 cleric, STR 13 (+1) AGI 15 (+1) STA 11 PER 13 (+1) INT 10 LUCK 9, AC: 11 (13 if wounded, 15 if down to half hit points), Refl: +3 Fort: +2 Will: +3, chaotic, Robe of the Faith, Scourge of the Maimed One, Darts of Pain.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: DCC: compatablity of 3E monsters?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:26 pm 
Offline
Cold-Hearted Immortal
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 5:42 am
Posts: 2263
Location: Chicago suburbs
What I do is grab the key stats that I want and throw out the parts that I don't. For example, any reference to skills and feats I ignore but basic AC, HP, damage, etc numbers I keep.

I also grab AD&D monsters, C&C monsters, whatever happens to be handy. I don't worry about balance. If certain monsters are harder than others, that's okay with me. 8)

_________________
Marv / Finarvyn
DCC Minister of Propaganda; Deputized 6/8/11
Image
DCC RPG playtester 2011, C&C playtester 2003,T&T since 2003,
ADRP Since 1993, OD&D player since 1975

"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own."
-- Gary Gygax
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!"
-- Dave Arneson


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: DCC: compatablity of 3E monsters?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 5:33 pm 
Offline
Cold-Hearted Immortal
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:46 pm
Posts: 2310
Location: Left Coast, USA
Fin, how do you make your choice of monster? Are you just going with your gut? Or do you look at any particular numbers in relation to the PCs' numbers...?

_________________
Gnome Boy (a.k.a. "Jon") • DCC play-tester @ DDC 35, Feb 2011. • Beta DL 2111, 7:00 AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since 1977 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters - Holds the power to play gnomes at will!

Here Be DCC Monsters...

General Yoros, Warrior, Str 13, Agl 8 (10), Stm 17, Per 13, Int 11, Lck 8; Law, HP 39, AC 17, R+2, F+4, W+2, band/shld, warhammer, longsword, longbow, pitchfork

Han Dee, (Weaver) Neutral Thief, Str 10, Agi 13, Stm 11, Per 11, Int 15, Lck 14, AC 13 (Leather), HP 25, Luck Die d6, Backstab 3, Sneak Silently 10, Hide In Shadows 9, Pick Pocket 10, Climb Sheer 10, Pick Lock 9, Find Trap 9, Disable Trap 9, Forge Doc 10, Disguise 3, Read Lang 5, Handle Poison 3, Cast Scroll d14+2, birth augur (Born under the loom) +1 to all skill checks (including thief skills), Banepicks (auto pick lock/disable trap, but lose 1d3 random ability loss, if a 3 then 1 pt is perm)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: DCC: compatablity of 3E monsters?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 6:33 pm 
Offline
Far-Sighted Wanderer
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:56 pm
Posts: 21
Location: Wellington, New Zealand
I don't know about 3e monsters, but with the Basic/Expert and AD&D adventures I've already got, other than reversing the AC, the only thing I do is give all monsters d12 for HD, since characters are significantly more powerful at each level than their earlier D&D counterparts (and it matches with monsters in early D&D getting the same HD as fighters).

We played through the entire Dyson's Delve using the DCC beta rules, with no other major modification to monsters, either in stats or in numbers, and it went fine.
I did have a little difficulty where the monster poisoned, paralysed or otherwise did some Saving Throw-required attack to characters, since I don't know a good way to translate the five Saving Throw progressions to DCC, so I usually just picked target numbers that seemed reasonable.
Carrion crawlers attacking from the ceiling proved to be a very good way for previously cocky characters to learn a thing or two about multi-tentacled paralysis being a threat (my players now specifically tell me they are checking upwards in every room...)

And I don't worry too much about balance, either. It's sometimes tougher, sometimes easier, but only the aforementioned carrion crawlers (and a particularly surprising group of gargoyles) ever really threatened a TPK.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: DCC: compatablity of 3E monsters?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 7:36 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:04 pm
Posts: 757
Location: Los Angeles
I use all monsters AS-IS. Converting pre-3e monsters takes subtracting their AC from 19. Everything else from all editions can be used the same.

Since XP is rewarded on actual "Challenge", it really doesn't matter if an edition of the monster is "weaker" than it "should be". 0e/BECMI orcs will be weaker than AD&D orcs, and even weaker than 3e orcs. Treat them as different monsters/breeds. As with anything else, it'll take a bit to get used to the stats and relative strengths vs the PCs. But in a while you'll be able to look at monster stats and get a good idea of their "challenge levels".

Don't worry about math. DCC RPG characters are 1d3 times more powerful than other D&D editions. I say 1d3 because the range varies much more widely in DCC RPG than they do in D&D (all editions.) So there will never be some straight conversions that will work all the time.

For spells I use the simple Swords & Wizardry versions and you can find some quick ref sheets at Warlock's Homebrew: http://warlockshomebrew.blogspot.com/p/swords-wizardry.html And I use custom tables determine spell effects, see attached (originally found in #1 of Crawl).

Finally, for Saves and other numbers, I use this: (By the same guy to did the DCC RPG Reference Sheets.)
http://peoplethemwithmonsters.blogspot.com/2011/07/dcc-monster-helper.html

(p.s. I will be publishing the Monster Helper in the next issue of Crawl!)

Hope that helps!


Attachments:
OSRspellcheckeffects.png
OSRspellcheckeffects.png [ 108.3 KiB | Viewed 1410 times ]

_________________
Reverend Dakota Jesus Ultimak, S.S.M.o.t.S.M.S., D.M.

(Dungeon) Master In Chief of Crawl! fanzine. - http://www.crawlfanzine.com/

"[...] there is no doubt that Dungeons and Dragons and its imitators are right out of the pit of hell." - William Schnoebelen, Straight talk on Dungeons & Dragons
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: DCC: compatablity of 3E monsters?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:06 pm 
Offline
Steely-Eyed Heathen-Slayer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:23 pm
Posts: 660
Location: Montreal
Wow, thanks for all the comments! Cool stuff!

@reverenddak: do you mean that for spells, you simply use the whatever-version-of-the-spell-you-might-be-using, say a 3E spell or an AD&D spell, and modify its result according to the quick-ref table you posted here? If you find this works well, it seems like a very handy trick indeed. Do I understand that the players are then the only ones with the very powerful spell outputs from the DCC book, or do you make the occasional special NPC use those spells as well?

_________________
Maledict Brothbreath, level 4 warrior, STR 16 (+2) AGI 7 (-1) STA 12 PER 9 INT 10 LUCK 15 (+1), AC: 16 Refl: +1 Fort: +2 Will: +1; lawful; Armor of the Lion and Lily's Blade.

Brother Sufferus, level 4 cleric, STR 13 (+1) AGI 15 (+1) STA 11 PER 13 (+1) INT 10 LUCK 9, AC: 11 (13 if wounded, 15 if down to half hit points), Refl: +3 Fort: +2 Will: +3, chaotic, Robe of the Faith, Scourge of the Maimed One, Darts of Pain.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: DCC: compatablity of 3E monsters?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 2:08 am 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:04 pm
Posts: 757
Location: Los Angeles
Use whatever spells you have quick access to. Reward XP on the magnitude of challenge vs. the stats. i.e. if the fight is challenging, reward an appropriate amount of XP, if it's a cake-walk, less.

NPC/Monsters are designed to survive about 5 or so rounds of combat. Any more than that is, honestly and personally speaking, boring. If it's an epic end battle w/ boss, there should be tons of peon and minion monster... tons, to extend the combat over a longer amount of time. Nickle and dime-ing a monster to death is tedious/boring. With that, make sure if they're a spellcaster that they have big spells (appropriate to their level) A fireball will be a SUPERNOVA, Magic Missile will be Magic Carpet Bomb, etc. at higher levels.

I used to let special NPCs use DCC RPG versions of spells. But I've simplified it a bit with some house rules and use simplified versions of spells that are scaled by the HD of the spell casting NPC/monster (shameless plug, Crawl! #3.) I don't bother letting NPCs have as diverse a range of spell effects as you would regular PCs, there's no point. I pick one basic "misfire" and one basic "crit", and have the spell effect be the typical effect. Much simpler to write our spell caster "powers" that way. I also use the same name to emphasis they're compatibility with counter-spells and spell duels.

A lot of the times I just wing it, and I favor or lean towards "cool" and "fun" when in doubt. If it makes your players cheer, clap, high-five or laugh you're probably doing it right.

_________________
Reverend Dakota Jesus Ultimak, S.S.M.o.t.S.M.S., D.M.

(Dungeon) Master In Chief of Crawl! fanzine. - http://www.crawlfanzine.com/

"[...] there is no doubt that Dungeons and Dragons and its imitators are right out of the pit of hell." - William Schnoebelen, Straight talk on Dungeons & Dragons


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: DCC: compatablity of 3E monsters?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 3:14 pm 
Offline
Steely-Eyed Heathen-Slayer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:23 pm
Posts: 660
Location: Montreal
reverenddak wrote:
Use whatever spells you have quick access to. Reward XP on the magnitude of challenge vs. the stats. i.e. if the fight is challenging, reward an appropriate amount of XP, if it's a cake-walk, less.

NPC/Monsters are designed to survive about 5 or so rounds of combat. Any more than that is, honestly and personally speaking, boring. If it's an epic end battle w/ boss, there should be tons of peon and minion monster... tons, to extend the combat over a longer amount of time. Nickle and dime-ing a monster to death is tedious/boring. With that, make sure if they're a spellcaster that they have big spells (appropriate to their level) A fireball will be a SUPERNOVA, Magic Missile will be Magic Carpet Bomb, etc. at higher levels.

I used to let special NPCs use DCC RPG versions of spells. But I've simplified it a bit with some house rules and use simplified versions of spells that are scaled by the HD of the spell casting NPC/monster (shameless plug, Crawl! #3.) I don't bother letting NPCs have as diverse a range of spell effects as you would regular PCs, there's no point. I pick one basic "misfire" and one basic "crit", and have the spell effect be the typical effect. Much simpler to write our spell caster "powers" that way. I also use the same name to emphasis they're compatibility with counter-spells and spell duels.

A lot of the times I just wing it, and I favor or lean towards "cool" and "fun" when in doubt. If it makes your players cheer, clap, high-five or laugh you're probably doing it right.


If they dance the boogie-woogie, is that alright too?

;)

Thanks for the thoughts, that's great advice. I don't use XP, but apart from that, all of the above is applicable. Being able to mine older versions of D&D for monsters and spells for NPCs will really simplify my life a ton.

If I play at least a bit of DCC, I'll seriously consider following your shameless plug to its root and jumping onboard Crawl.

Cheers,

Sky

_________________
Maledict Brothbreath, level 4 warrior, STR 16 (+2) AGI 7 (-1) STA 12 PER 9 INT 10 LUCK 15 (+1), AC: 16 Refl: +1 Fort: +2 Will: +1; lawful; Armor of the Lion and Lily's Blade.

Brother Sufferus, level 4 cleric, STR 13 (+1) AGI 15 (+1) STA 11 PER 13 (+1) INT 10 LUCK 9, AC: 11 (13 if wounded, 15 if down to half hit points), Refl: +3 Fort: +2 Will: +3, chaotic, Robe of the Faith, Scourge of the Maimed One, Darts of Pain.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: DCC: compatablity of 3E monsters?
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 8:22 pm 
Offline
Cold-Hearted Immortal
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 5:42 am
Posts: 2263
Location: Chicago suburbs
GnomeBoy wrote:
Fin, how do you make your choice of monster? Are you just going with your gut? Or do you look at any particular numbers in relation to the PCs' numbers...?
Mostly just a gut call.

The key number, obviously, is hit dice. In general I'd like to have the hit dice number be somewhat in line with the level of the characters. On the other hand, I ran a game the other day where a bunch of 1st level guys encountered a couple of ogres and they figured out really quickly that it was flight or perish. Once they leveled up a couple of times, however, they went out ogre-hunting. :lol:

_________________
Marv / Finarvyn
DCC Minister of Propaganda; Deputized 6/8/11
Image
DCC RPG playtester 2011, C&C playtester 2003,T&T since 2003,
ADRP Since 1993, OD&D player since 1975

"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own."
-- Gary Gygax
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!"
-- Dave Arneson


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 9 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group