Goodman Games

Fan Forums
It is currently Fri Oct 24, 2014 1:04 am

All times are UTC - 6 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Skill checks involving multiple characters
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 5:43 am 
Offline
Ill-Fated Peasant

Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 5:22 am
Posts: 3
Hi,

sorry if this may be common knowledge, but I couldn't find any answers through a forum search, and my last fantasy RPG GMing experience was AD&D, so d20 rules and other rules conventions of the past 20 years have gone straight past me :-).

Without "spoiling" too much, in a DCC RPG 0-level adventure module I'll soon be running, there are several instances of skill checks of DC 20 or higher for opening doors/portals, lifting things etc. (using Strength modifier)
It seems reasonable for 2 or even 3 people (depending on size) to try joining forces to open a reasonably large door or lift an object more than one person can grip. The core rulebook and the module are silent on the topic, though in the module there is an instance where it says that up to 4 characters can succeed in lifting a specific object if their combined strength is above a certain number.

So what does a Judge do in this case? Having 2 characters joining forces to open a DC20 door both rolling d20s and adding them seems excessive... Add a modifier? Roll a d24 or a d30? Or is the intent that it is a DC20 task meant to be tried individually -- characters without negative strength modifiers can line up one by one to get their 5 to 20% chance? There are quite a few of these DC20 (or even higher DCs) strength skill checks which seem like they could have multiple participants, so I'm not sure what the intent of these DC20's is, or what the best course of action for the Judge is. I can't offhand think of any other situation where multiple characters might join forces in a single skill check, but the same question would arise.

Anyone with any useful thoughts, please feel free to chime in :-). I'm running the adventure next weekend, so I hope I can figure out something before then.

Thanks in advance.

_________________
-- I am doing my part and voting with my wallet. I've purchased every Goodman Games and 3rd Party Publisher DCC publication to this point. Been worth every penny so far!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skill checks involving multiple characters
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 7:28 am 
Offline
Cold-Hearted Immortal
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 5:42 am
Posts: 2263
Location: Chicago suburbs
I don't recall if this is addressed in the rulebook or not. I usually "wing it" for situations such as this. The simple solution would be to add a +2 to the die roll for each character helping the original.

_________________
Marv / Finarvyn
DCC Minister of Propaganda; Deputized 6/8/11
Image
DCC RPG playtester 2011, C&C playtester 2003,T&T since 2003,
ADRP Since 1993, OD&D player since 1975

"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own."
-- Gary Gygax
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!"
-- Dave Arneson


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skill checks involving multiple characters
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:11 am 
Offline
Cold-Hearted Immortal
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:46 pm
Posts: 2310
Location: Left Coast, USA
Hmm.

If you and I lift an object together, we're each essentially lifting half the weight, more or less (I'm sorry, I was tilting it more towards you to get the lighter load... won't happen again).

But cutting the DC to 10 for two and to 7 for three seems perhaps maybe almost too easy (ymmv). Of course, if everybody has to make a roll vs that DC, it might not be as easy as it sounds...

Reduce the DC by the number of 'extra' folk, and make one d20 roll adding all of their STR modifiers?

_________________
Gnome Boy (a.k.a. "Jon") • DCC play-tester @ DDC 35, Feb 2011. • Beta DL 2111, 7:00 AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since 1977 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters - Holds the power to play gnomes at will!

Here Be DCC Monsters...

General Yoros, Warrior, Str 13, Agl 8 (10), Stm 17, Per 13, Int 11, Lck 8; Law, HP 39, AC 17, R+2, F+4, W+2, band/shld, warhammer, longsword, longbow, pitchfork

Han Dee, (Weaver) Neutral Thief, Str 10, Agi 13, Stm 11, Per 11, Int 15, Lck 14, AC 13 (Leather), HP 25, Luck Die d6, Backstab 3, Sneak Silently 10, Hide In Shadows 9, Pick Pocket 10, Climb Sheer 10, Pick Lock 9, Find Trap 9, Disable Trap 9, Forge Doc 10, Disguise 3, Read Lang 5, Handle Poison 3, Cast Scroll d14+2, birth augur (Born under the loom) +1 to all skill checks (including thief skills), Banepicks (auto pick lock/disable trap, but lose 1d3 random ability loss, if a 3 then 1 pt is perm)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skill checks involving multiple characters
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:38 am 
Offline
Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 7:31 pm
Posts: 100
Location: Austin, TX
I like the idea of increasing the die step if results are additive - so busting open a door, lifting a portcullis, etc, each additional character would be useful. I'd also include the appropriate ability modifiers as bonuses, if applicable (and almost always Strength in these cases) for each PC acting/helping.

There are other cases, tracking or alchemy, for example, where I wouldn't necessarily do it that way. In this case, its not about raw addition, but skilled addition. In this case, I like having a main character (whoever is doing the primary skill action) make a roll based on their level/abilities, plus getting bonuses from others helping who also successfully make a roll (that roll could be at a lower DC, too) - maybe +1 or +2, based on skill/roll/etc. (This is how Savage Worlds does cooperative rolls, and works pretty well.)

Alternately, another way to do cooperative rolls is to sum up everyone's applicable modifiers (usually just ability modifiers if appropriate), then let everyone roll, but only use the best single die.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skill checks involving multiple characters
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 10:10 am 
Offline
Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 9:25 am
Posts: 78
I think the mechanics of teaming up have to be figured out on a case by case basis. If there's a barred door to be broken down, it's much harder to effectively collaborate than if there's a stuck door to be pushed open. The barred door requires the simultaneous application of sudden force, whereas the stuck door requires simultaneous continuous force, which means that there's no issue of timing the mutual effort just right.

I'd let two characters push on a stuck door (of normal size), adding both their strength modifiers and a +1 for the second character's weight to a single d20. To break down a locked door, I'd allow one character per 5' of door, and require some kind of coordination, like everyone making a DC 12 agility check.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skill checks involving multiple characters
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 9:16 pm 
Offline
Deft-Handed Cutpurse
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:21 am
Posts: 263
Location: California, USA
Zenmaster wrote:
Anyone with any useful thoughts, please feel free to chime in :-).

I will not go so far as to say my thoughts are useful, but I have no problem chiming in :). Like Bilgewriggler, I think the mechanics have to be situational. With that being said, I almost never allow players to "automatically" help. I have them make a relevant ability to check to successfully help, even if that means adding +2 to the skill check of primary person doing the task. It seems like having them roll to help rather than automatically help is more engaging, and the chance of failure adds tension :twisted:.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skill checks involving multiple characters
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 7:12 pm 
Offline
Hard-Bitten Adventurer

Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:07 pm
Posts: 157
If you go by only the modifier than a character could actually hinder you by trying to lift with you. That doesnt really seem like it should work that way. What I did was I set a DC for the feat of strength and then a also annotated what combined STR score would be needed to get an auto success. I looked at from the point of view that the additional helpers reduced the DC down to something more routine. Another alternative would be to scale the total stength. so X str reduces the DC roll to Y etc. and then have the primary character make a skill check with thier modifier for the new roll. Many hands make light the work and all that.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skill checks involving multiple characters
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 10:53 pm 
Offline
Ill-Fated Peasant

Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 5:22 am
Posts: 3
Pesky wrote:
If you go by only the modifier than a character could actually hinder you by trying to lift with you. That doesnt really seem like it should work that way. What I did was I set a DC for the feat of strength and then a also annotated what combined STR score would be needed to get an auto success. I looked at from the point of view that the additional helpers reduced the DC down to something more routine. Another alternative would be to scale the total stength. so X str reduces the DC roll to Y etc. and then have the primary character make a skill check with thier modifier for the new roll. Many hands make light the work and all that.


SavageRobby wrote:
There are other cases, tracking or alchemy, for example, where I wouldn't necessarily do it that way. In this case, its not about raw addition, but skilled addition. In this case, I like having a main character (whoever is doing the primary skill action) make a roll based on their level/abilities, plus getting bonuses from others helping who also successfully make a roll (that roll could be at a lower DC, too) - maybe +1 or +2, based on skill/roll/etc. (This is how Savage Worlds does cooperative rolls, and works pretty well.)

Alternately, another way to do cooperative rolls is to sum up everyone's applicable modifiers (usually just ability modifiers if appropriate), then let everyone roll, but only use the best single die.


Ok, thanks all for the input so far. Pesky and Savage Robby's ideas above sound really good, and Bilgewriggler is right in that it depends on the exact situation. I also agree having helpers roll to see if they aid somehow is a great idea. I still want to work the dice chain in whenever possible (I have all these cool new dice; I want people to roll them!) so I'll throw all these ideas in the hopper and sleep on it. Will post later whatever I come up with.

Thanks again.

_________________
-- I am doing my part and voting with my wallet. I've purchased every Goodman Games and 3rd Party Publisher DCC publication to this point. Been worth every penny so far!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skill checks involving multiple characters
PostPosted: Wed Sep 19, 2012 11:13 pm 
Offline
Deft-Handed Cutpurse
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:21 am
Posts: 263
Location: California, USA
Hey Zenmaster, the quotation that you attributed to me actually came from Rostranor... :)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skill checks involving multiple characters
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:19 am 
Offline
Ill-Fated Peasant

Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 5:22 am
Posts: 3
Weird, because when I quoted it with the forum quote tool, it put your name in there. I just saw that and assumed it was your quote. My apologies to Rostranor (maybe Rostranor should figure out why the forum software doesn't like him!?)

_________________
-- I am doing my part and voting with my wallet. I've purchased every Goodman Games and 3rd Party Publisher DCC publication to this point. Been worth every penny so far!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skill checks involving multiple characters
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:31 pm 
Offline
Deft-Handed Cutpurse
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:21 am
Posts: 263
Location: California, USA
Zenmaster wrote:
Weird, because when I quoted it with the forum quote tool, it put your name in there.

It seems that "Pesky" is by no means a misnomer. :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skill checks involving multiple characters
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:11 pm 
Offline
Hard-Bitten Adventurer

Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:07 pm
Posts: 157
perhpas my commentary has been proscribed and I havent been notified yet.

Dice chain sounds like a good idea too. Maybe each supporting character with a positive str modifier could add +1D, characters with no mod or a negative one may help, but are to feeble really to make a difference. AS an example, no one really gets help from their Nanna to move a couch even if she is trying to move the coushin.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skill checks involving multiple characters
PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:23 pm 
Offline
Cold-Hearted Immortal
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:46 pm
Posts: 2310
Location: Left Coast, USA
What about a blended approach?

Those with a positive modifier are automatically 'helpful', and bump the die type used for the roll up the dice chain.

Those with no modifier or a negative modifier can make their own roll vs. the DC to see if they push things up the dice chain or not -- i.e., Nana might help if she's had her Wheaties and happens to be making use of a fulcrum... :mrgreen:

_________________
Gnome Boy (a.k.a. "Jon") • DCC play-tester @ DDC 35, Feb 2011. • Beta DL 2111, 7:00 AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since 1977 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters - Holds the power to play gnomes at will!

Here Be DCC Monsters...

General Yoros, Warrior, Str 13, Agl 8 (10), Stm 17, Per 13, Int 11, Lck 8; Law, HP 39, AC 17, R+2, F+4, W+2, band/shld, warhammer, longsword, longbow, pitchfork

Han Dee, (Weaver) Neutral Thief, Str 10, Agi 13, Stm 11, Per 11, Int 15, Lck 14, AC 13 (Leather), HP 25, Luck Die d6, Backstab 3, Sneak Silently 10, Hide In Shadows 9, Pick Pocket 10, Climb Sheer 10, Pick Lock 9, Find Trap 9, Disable Trap 9, Forge Doc 10, Disguise 3, Read Lang 5, Handle Poison 3, Cast Scroll d14+2, birth augur (Born under the loom) +1 to all skill checks (including thief skills), Banepicks (auto pick lock/disable trap, but lose 1d3 random ability loss, if a 3 then 1 pt is perm)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skill checks involving multiple characters
PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 12:32 pm 
Offline
Hard-Bitten Adventurer

Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:07 pm
Posts: 157
thats possible. I like to keep things streamlined as much as possible. The players will know if their character can help or not with the skill check. There is also the common sense factor. The fighter with a aid of the halfling was able to dead lift the porculis. The fighter type wanted to hold it up over his head, I ruled that the halfling helped him dead lift it, but he would need another decreased DC roll to keep it at the level he wanted.

Another option to just make it quick and easy is that a solo character makes a roll against the DC. If he has helpers their combined strength needs to equal or exceed the DC and they open or roll again against the DC with a +1D


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skill checks involving multiple characters
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:04 pm 
Offline
Deft-Handed Cutpurse
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2012 5:27 pm
Posts: 275
I have my players declare whether or not they are in primary or support roles. The one who is primary rolls a d20 normally. Anyone in a support rolls 1d20 and their result determines how much help they provide as follows:

1: -2 to check
5: +1 to check
10 +2 to check
15: +3 to check
20: +4 to check

_________________
My Gaming Blog: The Earthlight Academy
http://earthlightacademy.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skill checks involving multiple characters
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:39 pm 
Offline
Deft-Handed Cutpurse
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:21 am
Posts: 263
Location: California, USA
Vanguard wrote:
I have my players declare whether or not they are in primary or support roles. The one who is primary rolls a d20 normally. Anyone in a support rolls 1d20 and their result determines how much help they provide as follows:

1: -2 to check
5: +1 to check
10 +2 to check
15: +3 to check
20: +4 to check

Nice...I like that. Do you let them modify the roll via ability mods or must it be au naturel?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skill checks involving multiple characters
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:48 am 
Offline
Deft-Handed Cutpurse
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2012 5:27 pm
Posts: 275
Pesky wrote:
Vanguard wrote:
I have my players declare whether or not they are in primary or support roles. The one who is primary rolls a d20 normally. Anyone in a support rolls 1d20 and their result determines how much help they provide as follows:

1: -2 to check
5: +1 to check
10 +2 to check
15: +3 to check
20: +4 to check

Nice...I like that. Do you let them modify the roll via ability mods or must it be au naturel?


I let them modify it normally. I mean, getting a +1 or +2 to this roll means far less as these goalposts are set in stone.

_________________
My Gaming Blog: The Earthlight Academy
http://earthlightacademy.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skill checks involving multiple characters
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:01 am 
Offline
Cold-Hearted Immortal
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:41 am
Posts: 2158
Vanguard wrote:
I have my players declare whether or not they are in primary or support roles. The one who is primary rolls a d20 normally. Anyone in a support rolls 1d20 and their result determines how much help they provide as follows:

1: -2 to check
5: +1 to check
10 +2 to check
15: +3 to check
20: +4 to check


Cool system. I would tweak it so that the would-be helper rolls an appropriate die, not necessarily 1d20. Which would mean that, for some skills, untrained "helpers" get in the way more often than not. I.e., where 1d10 is rolled!

_________________
SoBH pbp:

Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skill checks involving multiple characters
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 10:03 am 
Offline
Deft-Handed Cutpurse
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2012 5:27 pm
Posts: 275
Raven_Crowking wrote:
Vanguard wrote:
I have my players declare whether or not they are in primary or support roles. The one who is primary rolls a d20 normally. Anyone in a support rolls 1d20 and their result determines how much help they provide as follows:

1: -2 to check
5: +1 to check
10 +2 to check
15: +3 to check
20: +4 to check


Cool system. I would tweak it so that the would-be helper rolls an appropriate die, not necessarily 1d20. Which would mean that, for some skills, untrained "helpers" get in the way more often than not. I.e., where 1d10 is rolled!


I should add I already do this. For simple things like Strength checks though? Everyone can try, despite how strong (or weak!) they are.

_________________
My Gaming Blog: The Earthlight Academy
http://earthlightacademy.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skill checks involving multiple characters
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:38 am 
Offline
Cold-Hearted Immortal
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:41 am
Posts: 2158
Vanguard wrote:
Raven_Crowking wrote:
Vanguard wrote:
I have my players declare whether or not they are in primary or support roles. The one who is primary rolls a d20 normally. Anyone in a support rolls 1d20 and their result determines how much help they provide as follows:

1: -2 to check
5: +1 to check
10 +2 to check
15: +3 to check
20: +4 to check


Cool system. I would tweak it so that the would-be helper rolls an appropriate die, not necessarily 1d20. Which would mean that, for some skills, untrained "helpers" get in the way more often than not. I.e., where 1d10 is rolled!


I should add I already do this. For simple things like Strength checks though? Everyone can try, despite how strong (or weak!) they are.



Yup.

Consider this Yoinked!

_________________
SoBH pbp:

Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skill checks involving multiple characters
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 11:41 am 
Offline
Cold-Hearted Immortal
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 3:46 pm
Posts: 2310
Location: Left Coast, USA
Vanguard wrote:
Raven_Crowking wrote:
Vanguard wrote:
I have my players declare whether or not they are in primary or support roles. The one who is primary rolls a d20 normally. Anyone in a support rolls 1d20 and their result determines how much help they provide as follows:

1: -2 to check
5: +1 to check
10 +2 to check
15: +3 to check
20: +4 to check


Cool system. I would tweak it so that the would-be helper rolls an appropriate die, not necessarily 1d20. Which would mean that, for some skills, untrained "helpers" get in the way more often than not. I.e., where 1d10 is rolled!


I should add I already do this. For simple things like Strength checks though? Everyone can try, despite how strong (or weak!) they are.

This seems Crawl!able.

_________________
Gnome Boy (a.k.a. "Jon") • DCC play-tester @ DDC 35, Feb 2011. • Beta DL 2111, 7:00 AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since 1977 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters - Holds the power to play gnomes at will!

Here Be DCC Monsters...

General Yoros, Warrior, Str 13, Agl 8 (10), Stm 17, Per 13, Int 11, Lck 8; Law, HP 39, AC 17, R+2, F+4, W+2, band/shld, warhammer, longsword, longbow, pitchfork

Han Dee, (Weaver) Neutral Thief, Str 10, Agi 13, Stm 11, Per 11, Int 15, Lck 14, AC 13 (Leather), HP 25, Luck Die d6, Backstab 3, Sneak Silently 10, Hide In Shadows 9, Pick Pocket 10, Climb Sheer 10, Pick Lock 9, Find Trap 9, Disable Trap 9, Forge Doc 10, Disguise 3, Read Lang 5, Handle Poison 3, Cast Scroll d14+2, birth augur (Born under the loom) +1 to all skill checks (including thief skills), Banepicks (auto pick lock/disable trap, but lose 1d3 random ability loss, if a 3 then 1 pt is perm)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skill checks involving multiple characters
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:18 pm 
Offline
Deft-Handed Cutpurse
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2012 5:27 pm
Posts: 275
Hmmm, good idea, but I think I'll save my Crawl submissions for something bigger. I'm pretty involved in this once game I'm running, which is making it hard to get these other projects done, but I have new patrons, classes, and mechanics in the works.

This will, however, go on my blog.

_________________
My Gaming Blog: The Earthlight Academy
http://earthlightacademy.blogspot.com/


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Skill checks involving multiple characters
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:09 pm 
Offline
Far-Sighted Wanderer

Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:45 am
Posts: 39
Location: New Hampshire
This came up back in the days of 2nd Ed. D&D. I just made a house rule that each person helping added their relevant attribute bonus to the roll.

If you aren't strong/smart enough to get a bonus? Why are you helping then? Step back and let the capable people handle this.

It adds the bonus flavor of someone truly incompetent actually hurting your chances by helping out.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 23 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group