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Pick your favorite version of the DCC RPG Bard!
Poll ended at Fri Nov 16, 2012 11:40 am
Bard by bizarrojoe viewtopic.php?p=89498#p89498 25%  25%  [ 2 ]
Bard by beermotor viewtopic.php?p=90017#p90017 25%  25%  [ 2 ]
Bard by Troll_Mage https://docs.google.com/document/d/12Jt ... LVhE/edit# 50%  50%  [ 4 ]
Total votes : 8
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 Post subject: Crawl! New Class Challenge: BARD!
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 11:57 am 
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Ok! Now for the next phase of the New Class Challenge. Your version of a classic class for DCC RPG can be featured in an upcoming issue of Crawl! But it's gotta be good!

Post your proposal in this thread. Don't worry about too many specific details. I want to see concepts and features that separates them from the core classes. Don't worry about tables & charts. If there are any new or weird concepts or theory behind your proposal, include them at the end of the post. Use a format like this:

Name of the Class: (i.e. Dark Knight)
Class Description: (i.e. The dark knight is blah blah blah...)
Class Features: (i.e. Hit Points, Weapon training, Alignment, Attack..., special feature 1, etc...)
Notes: (optional, i.e.The new concept, unique ideas and examples.)

This thread is specifically for the: BARD ONLY! Don't chime in until everyone has posted their proposals.

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(Dungeon) Master In Chief of Crawl! fanzine. - http://www.crawlfanzine.com/

"[...] there is no doubt that Dungeons and Dragons and its imitators are right out of the pit of hell." - William Schnoebelen, Straight talk on Dungeons & Dragons


Last edited by reverenddak on Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:43 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Crawl! New Class Challenge: BARD!
PostPosted: Wed Aug 22, 2012 5:57 am 
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Name of the Class: Bard

Class Description: The bard is a master storyteller. Bards devote their lives to travelling from one end of a realm to another, listening and watching everything around them, and weaving tales that inform and entertain. An adventuring bard seeks to be a part of the living history, and often joins an entourage of courageous fellows to do battle with the evils of the worlds and share in the glories of victory and humilities of defeat. Bards have a wealth of information to draw from for inspiration, and can channel these talents into a multitude of skills both on an off the battlefield. But perhaps the greatest abilities of the bard comes from exposure to the mysteries of arcana, where the storyteller learns to transform the impossible into reality...

The overall idea of my bard gets closer to the storytelling roots of the class. I never liked the idea that bards have extra healing abilities in other systems; it always felt like a tacked-on skillset meant to balance out the bard's usefulness. To me, the bard is a jack-of-all-trades, but is primarily an orator. They spend most of their time walking the line between fantasy and reality in a very natural way. And that is the strength that I wanted to see come out in DCC. Of all the classes, the bard can make the most of their personality to accomplish amazing things. Furthermore, after spending a lot of the time working beside clerics and wizards in adventures, the bard begins to see that there are ways to shape an invisible aspect of the world around them. At first, this can manifest as enhancements to their inherent abilities as minstrels. However, after enough experience bards can begin to see the threads of reality and play around with them, channeling wild energies through their performances. To the veteran bard, all stories become true.

Class Features:

Hit Points: A bard gains 1d7 hit points at each level.

Weapon Training: Bards prefer to make love, not war. However, given the treacherous road of an adventurer, bards are skilled in the use of the dagger, short bow, short sword, sling, and staff.

Alignment: The best entertainers bare their souls to anyone who will listen. Therefore, bards are typically lawful or neutral.

Skillful Performances: Like Mighty Deeds, bards can use a spearate performance die to enhance skill checks realted to personality. Prior to making the skill check, the PC would declare the effect they wish to invoke: boosting morale, taunting an adversary, intimidating foes, seduction, bluffing, negotiating, calming, or entertaining. A successful performance would result in an extraordinary effect, which would be agreed upon by the Judge just like with Mighty Deeds. The performance die could also be applied to combat: After a successful attack, the bard can make a secondary skill check to see if they can intimidate, scare, or otherwise negatively affect their enemy's ability to fight effectively. Conversely, fumbling on such performance rolls can result in opposite effects. Just imagine what would happen with a fumbled bluff or seduction attempt!

Illusion Spells: Bards, at 2nd level, begin to tap into the arcane forces around them to enhance their abilities. All of these spells require spell checks, are modified by performance, and are subject to corruption and misfire just like with Wizards. Some spell ideas:
2nd Level: Magical Mystery Tour - same idea as rolling the performance die, but with much more powerful results (greater number of people affected, longer lasting effects, etc). At this level, bards don't necessarily understand how magic works, but they know that they can feel something that they can channel into their creativity.
3rd Level: Invisibility, Perceive Reality (detect magic, detect illusion, detect invisibility, etc), Phantasm (create basic non-corporeal illusions). The idea here is that bards begin to understand the magical forces around them.
4th Level: Alter Self, Bend Reality (teleportation, telekinesis), Warp Mind (hypnotize, charm, affect memory). At this level, bards can do more than see the veil between thought and reality; they can manipulate it as well.
5th Level: Break Will, Dream Walk, Manifest Thought. Bards at this level can mix fantasy and reality; to them their stories are as real as those that they are shared with.

Personality Burn: Bards can burn personality and luck. However, personality can recharge at the same rate that luck recharges for halflings or thieves.

Spell Burn: Bards can burn personality, strength, stamina, or agility to enhance spell checks. However, they can only choose a maximum of two, and performance must be one of them. Stats recharge just as with wizards. I'm not sure if this is overkill, but the idea I had is that bards would put a great deal of physicality into their performance to make sure it works spectacularly.

Notes: I was inspired by a couple of sources when I thought about the bard. First was William Shakespeare, the "Immortal Bard". Shakespeare's plays are the stuff of legends. At the time of their inception, they entertained and informed the masses, mixing fact and fiction and undoubtedly weaving stories that many people believed represented a kind of truth, whether it was a historical truth or an emotional truth. My other source of inspiration was Alan Moore and Grant Morrison. These comic book writers (if you never heard of them) both literally mix their writings with modern magical theory. Morrison has admitted that many of his works, most notably his Invisibles series, are basically giant spells (the goal of which only he knows). Moore, who declared himself a mage on his 40th birthday, has translated his stories into live performances, mixing storytelling with dance and song. As far as I'm concerned, these gentlemen are modern bards in the most fantastic sense possible!


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 Post subject: Re: Crawl! New Class Challenge: BARD!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:58 am 
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In general I like the proposal above. I would change a few things, though.

Instead of giving the bard spells, or writing unique illusion spells, I'd scrap that entirely. Make the bard strictly an orator, a poet, a singer, a minstrel, FIRST and foremost. Give the bard a few unique skills:

Rhetoric: successful checks allow the bard to influence others in positive or negative ways; a will save might be allowed for particularly strange or opposed ideas, but for the most part the bard is utterly convincing.
Poetics: successful checks allow the bard to rouse the spirits, either in people or the natural world, providing temporary benefits to allies (including, perhaps, healing benefits over time spent resting), being able to commune with trees, stones, brooks, animals, etc.
Minstrelry: successful checks allow the bard to calm hostile foes; a will save is allowed but apply a modifier of - (bard level + personality modifier).

I'd probably also give the bard the thief skills Disguise, Forge Document, and Pick Pocket. I think those are probably pretty well sourced for this class.

It takes a lot of endurance to be a musician - look at the Rolling Stones. So, maybe the bard gets increased movement as well (based 40'). Their primary saves would be Fortitude and Willpower.

_________________

RoM pbp:
Hamun Ry (Wiz 4)
Str 10 Agi 15 (+1) Sta 11 Per 11 Int 17 (+2) Luc 10 (Unholy House). Align: C. AC: 14. HP: 13. Melee +1, Ranged +2. Crit: d8, I. Save: Ref +5, Fort +3, Will +4.
Spells: 1: Choking Cloud, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic (odd crystal growths), Magic Missile (mirror images), Runic Alphabet (Mortal) (ravenously hungry), Ventriloquism (rain of frogs)
2: Detect Invisible, Levitate (extremely difficult, d14), Mirror Image (20% chance to raise/lower luck by 1d3 points).
Equip: Ring of the Sand Djinn: +2 AC/saves, Invisibility for 1min/spellburn point, or unmake for great, unknown effect. Padded Armor, Longsword, Longbow, quiver w/20 steel-tipped arrows, 10 silver-tipped arrows, backpack, spellbook, quill and ink, sturdy parchment (10 sheets), 5 days rations, high leather boots, belt w/ belt pouch, gray robe, dark gray hooded cloak. Also carries 3 small mechanical toys: wind-up mouse, wooden puzzle cube, small jewelry box that plays a little tune.


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 Post subject: Re: Crawl! New Class Challenge: BARD!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 11:21 am 
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I am building off what is presented above. I am changing up the performances. This is what I have:


Inspiring Performances: The Bard makes a Personality check. The bard must choose what level of inspiration they wish to try before rolling. The Bard must also choose is they are inspiring for Combat, Skills, or Personality checks.

Inspire Bravery: DC 11 On success the Bard rolls 1d3 it effects that many allies and adds that to their allies selected scores.

Inspire Courage: DC 16 On success the Bard roll 1d6 it effects that many allies and adds that to their allies selected scores.

Inspire Greatness: DC 20 On success the Bard rolls 1d8 it effects that many allies and adds that to their allies selected scores.


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 Post subject: Re: Crawl! New Class Challenge: BARD!
PostPosted: Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:00 pm 
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beermotor wrote:
In general I like the proposal above. I would change a few things, though....

Building on this, what about 'stage skills' -- like I can imagine it being fun to play a Bard that was a master of misdirection, causing a foe to lose AGL to AC, or even to create surprise attack opportunities for other party members. Or to allow the rest of the party to sneak past the guards, etc. Basically, he can draw attention where he wants it to be, not where the 'audience' thinks they want to look.

He should be good at getting attention focused on himself -- and being able to run away as often as needed! :twisted:

And I like that healing idea you have tucked in there, beer. You do heal better when relaxed, than when you're just laying there thinking about all the stuff you have to do tomorrow while you'll still be in pain!

_________________
Gnome Boy (a.k.a. "Jon") • DCC play-tester @ DDC 35, Feb 2011. • Beta DL 2111, 7:00 AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since 1977 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters - Holds the power to play gnomes at will!

Here Be DCC Monsters...

General Yoros, Warrior, Str 13, Agl 8 (10), Stm 17, Per 13, Int 11, Lck 8; Law, HP 39, AC 17, R+2, F+4, W+2, band/shld, warhammer, longsword, longbow, pitchfork

Han Dee, (Weaver) Neutral Thief, Str 10, Agi 13, Stm 11, Per 11, Int 15, Lck 14, AC 13 (Leather), HP 25, Luck Die d6, Backstab 3, Sneak Silently 10, Hide In Shadows 9, Pick Pocket 10, Climb Sheer 10, Pick Lock 9, Find Trap 9, Disable Trap 9, Forge Doc 10, Disguise 3, Read Lang 5, Handle Poison 3, Cast Scroll d14+2, birth augur (Born under the loom) +1 to all skill checks (including thief skills), Banepicks (auto pick lock/disable trap, but lose 1d3 random ability loss, if a 3 then 1 pt is perm)


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 Post subject: Re: Crawl! New Class Challenge: BARD!
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:52 am 
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I like the ideas that are coming out here. It makes me think of the Bard as someone that excels at modifying the stats and rolls of other characters and adversaries through his performances. And I do like the idea that a restful lullaby would help encourage healing; that actually makes sense (as opposed to the old tacked-on healing skills). I still think that the Bard should be able to twist reality around at higher levels, though. But perhaps through a mechanic that is not outright spellcasting? Any thoughts on that aspect of the class?


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 Post subject: Re: Crawl! New Class Challenge: BARD!
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:24 am 
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I'm generally opposed to the bard as either a jack-of-all-trades (3.x) or a fighter/magic-user/thief (AD&D), so I'm initially resistant to the idea that bards could "twist reality at higher levels." However ... I was thinking about great orators on the way in to work this morning, like a Nelson Mandela, a Gandhi, a Winston Churchill, MLK, Jr. ... and yeah, a Hitler. People that could incite passion in the listener. So, maybe they can change things ("reality"), perhaps by motivating a sufficient number of folks in a particular direction. ??

I'm going to write up a summation of what has been discussed here for us to collectively tweak.

_________________

RoM pbp:
Hamun Ry (Wiz 4)
Str 10 Agi 15 (+1) Sta 11 Per 11 Int 17 (+2) Luc 10 (Unholy House). Align: C. AC: 14. HP: 13. Melee +1, Ranged +2. Crit: d8, I. Save: Ref +5, Fort +3, Will +4.
Spells: 1: Choking Cloud, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic (odd crystal growths), Magic Missile (mirror images), Runic Alphabet (Mortal) (ravenously hungry), Ventriloquism (rain of frogs)
2: Detect Invisible, Levitate (extremely difficult, d14), Mirror Image (20% chance to raise/lower luck by 1d3 points).
Equip: Ring of the Sand Djinn: +2 AC/saves, Invisibility for 1min/spellburn point, or unmake for great, unknown effect. Padded Armor, Longsword, Longbow, quiver w/20 steel-tipped arrows, 10 silver-tipped arrows, backpack, spellbook, quill and ink, sturdy parchment (10 sheets), 5 days rations, high leather boots, belt w/ belt pouch, gray robe, dark gray hooded cloak. Also carries 3 small mechanical toys: wind-up mouse, wooden puzzle cube, small jewelry box that plays a little tune.


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 Post subject: Re: Crawl! New Class Challenge: BARD!
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:42 am 
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I can see where you're going there. I've always personally believed that language is magic in its simplest form. Every time we speak, we change things around us, and the bard would be very adept at this*. So perhaps a higher level bard would be able to evoke emotions in other creatures that would effectively act like a charm or bind or fear spell. And the ability of the bard can range from a large group of simple creatures to one or two very powerful creatures. In a way, it would have an effect table resembling that of the cleric's turn undead ability.

*As a side note, wizards spells are also just a manipulation of language. They speak in a language (be it verbal or through gestures) that affects things in different dimensions that have very interesting effects on our plane of existence. Clerics rely on language that communicates with divine creatures.


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 Post subject: Re: Crawl! New Class Challenge: BARD!
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:55 am 
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'joe, I love what you're saying about words being magical. I do.

But I feel like applying that to a Bard means that the Bard is fourth in line behind the Wizard, Cleric and Elf. "Oh yeah, he does magic, too..."

I'd rather see a Bard be something else altogether -- or as much something else as possible.

And the idea of bolstering your teammates as your primary power is interesting -- until I sit down at a table to play that. I don't want to help my friends/tablemates do cool things. I want to do cool things, too. I've played such 'supporting' characters at times over the years, and I always feel like I'm in the backseat, at the kids' table.

How they got that table into the backseat, I still haven't figured out...


The Bard, like any class, should make their own, distinctive mark on things.

_________________
Gnome Boy (a.k.a. "Jon") • DCC play-tester @ DDC 35, Feb 2011. • Beta DL 2111, 7:00 AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since 1977 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters - Holds the power to play gnomes at will!

Here Be DCC Monsters...

General Yoros, Warrior, Str 13, Agl 8 (10), Stm 17, Per 13, Int 11, Lck 8; Law, HP 39, AC 17, R+2, F+4, W+2, band/shld, warhammer, longsword, longbow, pitchfork

Han Dee, (Weaver) Neutral Thief, Str 10, Agi 13, Stm 11, Per 11, Int 15, Lck 14, AC 13 (Leather), HP 25, Luck Die d6, Backstab 3, Sneak Silently 10, Hide In Shadows 9, Pick Pocket 10, Climb Sheer 10, Pick Lock 9, Find Trap 9, Disable Trap 9, Forge Doc 10, Disguise 3, Read Lang 5, Handle Poison 3, Cast Scroll d14+2, birth augur (Born under the loom) +1 to all skill checks (including thief skills), Banepicks (auto pick lock/disable trap, but lose 1d3 random ability loss, if a 3 then 1 pt is perm)


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 Post subject: Re: Crawl! New Class Challenge: BARD!
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:16 am 
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Yeah I don't think you want to be strictly a buffer of other players. But, I don't think it's bad that the class isn't a melee or ranged badass, either. I mean, that's what you've got warriors for (and, arguably, dwarves, paladins, rangers, possibly elves and clerics, thieves).

Completely agree with "as much something else as possible." This applies to all the new proposed classes, in my mind.

_________________

RoM pbp:
Hamun Ry (Wiz 4)
Str 10 Agi 15 (+1) Sta 11 Per 11 Int 17 (+2) Luc 10 (Unholy House). Align: C. AC: 14. HP: 13. Melee +1, Ranged +2. Crit: d8, I. Save: Ref +5, Fort +3, Will +4.
Spells: 1: Choking Cloud, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic (odd crystal growths), Magic Missile (mirror images), Runic Alphabet (Mortal) (ravenously hungry), Ventriloquism (rain of frogs)
2: Detect Invisible, Levitate (extremely difficult, d14), Mirror Image (20% chance to raise/lower luck by 1d3 points).
Equip: Ring of the Sand Djinn: +2 AC/saves, Invisibility for 1min/spellburn point, or unmake for great, unknown effect. Padded Armor, Longsword, Longbow, quiver w/20 steel-tipped arrows, 10 silver-tipped arrows, backpack, spellbook, quill and ink, sturdy parchment (10 sheets), 5 days rations, high leather boots, belt w/ belt pouch, gray robe, dark gray hooded cloak. Also carries 3 small mechanical toys: wind-up mouse, wooden puzzle cube, small jewelry box that plays a little tune.


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 Post subject: Re: Crawl! New Class Challenge: BARD!
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:17 am 
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I feel the same way about the bard becoming a back-seat class when all it does is boost others, which is why I toyed with the idea of letting it perform some kind of magic. But that's certainly not the only option.

Perhaps the bard can boost itself as well, in ways that are unique to how it boosts others? Let's call it "Drawing Inspiration". The bard looks at the amazing things that its teammates can accomplish, and can draw from that in some way. I wouldn't go so far as to have the bard mimic the skills of others, but maybe it can experience a temporary change in stats. Maybe this would take place only when something extraordinary happens, like when another PC crits or performs a Mighty Deed. The bard, immediately following the success of its teammate, can "draw inspiration" from it, and is granted an immediate action. Maybe it can even use the same dice in its attack that the other player used, or just gain similar bonuses for that action only.

The general idea is that the bard can get a little bit of the multi-class, multiple actions flavor without overly complicating the rules. Add to that the ability to inspire, charm, intimidate, or dominate others, and you find yourself with a pretty unique and appealing class.


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 Post subject: Re: Crawl! New Class Challenge: BARD!
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:51 am 
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bizarrojoe wrote:
...Let's call it "Drawing Inspiration"....maybe it can experience a temporary change in stats....Maybe it can even use the same dice in its attack that the other player used, or just gain similar bonuses for that action only.

The general idea is that the bard can get a little bit of the multi-class, multiple actions flavor without overly complicating the rules. Add to that the ability to inspire, charm, intimidate, or dominate others, and you find yourself with a pretty unique and appealing class.

Now that is moving toward a Bard that could be fun to play!

I'm not sure if you mean the same dice as in 'same die type' or same dice as in 'same exact roll'. Making it the same roll could be interesting, since, to make it risky, I'd think you'd have to select which of your tablemates rolls to 'emulate' on the spot (not wait until it was your turn and then choose the obvious best -- which would also involve bookkeeping, which should be avoided). Stewie rolls an 18 and you decide that'll be your roll, too -- but then Johnson rolls a natural 20 -- a missed opportunity... Or you leave it too late, hoping for a better roll than you've seen so far and have to go with whoever is acting right before you, and they fumble... There's some risk, but potential great reward, too.

_________________
Gnome Boy (a.k.a. "Jon") • DCC play-tester @ DDC 35, Feb 2011. • Beta DL 2111, 7:00 AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since 1977 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters - Holds the power to play gnomes at will!

Here Be DCC Monsters...

General Yoros, Warrior, Str 13, Agl 8 (10), Stm 17, Per 13, Int 11, Lck 8; Law, HP 39, AC 17, R+2, F+4, W+2, band/shld, warhammer, longsword, longbow, pitchfork

Han Dee, (Weaver) Neutral Thief, Str 10, Agi 13, Stm 11, Per 11, Int 15, Lck 14, AC 13 (Leather), HP 25, Luck Die d6, Backstab 3, Sneak Silently 10, Hide In Shadows 9, Pick Pocket 10, Climb Sheer 10, Pick Lock 9, Find Trap 9, Disable Trap 9, Forge Doc 10, Disguise 3, Read Lang 5, Handle Poison 3, Cast Scroll d14+2, birth augur (Born under the loom) +1 to all skill checks (including thief skills), Banepicks (auto pick lock/disable trap, but lose 1d3 random ability loss, if a 3 then 1 pt is perm)


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 Post subject: Re: Crawl! New Class Challenge: BARD!
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:08 am 
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I didn't have a particular type of roll in mind, but it could simplify things if the bard uses the exact same dice. So, once per turn, if a character crits or pulls off a Mighty Deed, at that moment the bard can step in and attempt to replicate the action; no need for bookeeping. If it fails, too bad. If someone else comes along and pulls off a great feat during the turn, too bad. The bard has to wait until the next go-around to find more inspiration. However, in the meantime, the bard will still have its turn to act using its own innate skillset.

I don't know if that makes the bard too powerful, but I guess it depends on how often crits and Mighty Deeds come up.


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 Post subject: Re: Crawl! New Class Challenge: BARD!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:18 am 
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Is anybody pulling these ideas together yet... or do I need to carve out some time to do it?

*realizes he's probably volunteering*

_________________
Gnome Boy (a.k.a. "Jon") • DCC play-tester @ DDC 35, Feb 2011. • Beta DL 2111, 7:00 AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since 1977 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters - Holds the power to play gnomes at will!

Here Be DCC Monsters...

General Yoros, Warrior, Str 13, Agl 8 (10), Stm 17, Per 13, Int 11, Lck 8; Law, HP 39, AC 17, R+2, F+4, W+2, band/shld, warhammer, longsword, longbow, pitchfork

Han Dee, (Weaver) Neutral Thief, Str 10, Agi 13, Stm 11, Per 11, Int 15, Lck 14, AC 13 (Leather), HP 25, Luck Die d6, Backstab 3, Sneak Silently 10, Hide In Shadows 9, Pick Pocket 10, Climb Sheer 10, Pick Lock 9, Find Trap 9, Disable Trap 9, Forge Doc 10, Disguise 3, Read Lang 5, Handle Poison 3, Cast Scroll d14+2, birth augur (Born under the loom) +1 to all skill checks (including thief skills), Banepicks (auto pick lock/disable trap, but lose 1d3 random ability loss, if a 3 then 1 pt is perm)


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 Post subject: Re: Crawl! New Class Challenge: BARD!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:33 am 
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I'm working on it. Hope to have some stuff together tomorrow.

_________________

RoM pbp:
Hamun Ry (Wiz 4)
Str 10 Agi 15 (+1) Sta 11 Per 11 Int 17 (+2) Luc 10 (Unholy House). Align: C. AC: 14. HP: 13. Melee +1, Ranged +2. Crit: d8, I. Save: Ref +5, Fort +3, Will +4.
Spells: 1: Choking Cloud, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic (odd crystal growths), Magic Missile (mirror images), Runic Alphabet (Mortal) (ravenously hungry), Ventriloquism (rain of frogs)
2: Detect Invisible, Levitate (extremely difficult, d14), Mirror Image (20% chance to raise/lower luck by 1d3 points).
Equip: Ring of the Sand Djinn: +2 AC/saves, Invisibility for 1min/spellburn point, or unmake for great, unknown effect. Padded Armor, Longsword, Longbow, quiver w/20 steel-tipped arrows, 10 silver-tipped arrows, backpack, spellbook, quill and ink, sturdy parchment (10 sheets), 5 days rations, high leather boots, belt w/ belt pouch, gray robe, dark gray hooded cloak. Also carries 3 small mechanical toys: wind-up mouse, wooden puzzle cube, small jewelry box that plays a little tune.


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 Post subject: Re: Crawl! New Class Challenge: BARD!
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 11:42 am 
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Cool. I really only jumped into the Crawl! Class Challenge for the Gnome (wonder why?), have never been very interested in Bards before -- but became interested in where this Bard is going...

Looking forward to what you put together.

_________________
Gnome Boy (a.k.a. "Jon") • DCC play-tester @ DDC 35, Feb 2011. • Beta DL 2111, 7:00 AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since 1977 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters - Holds the power to play gnomes at will!

Here Be DCC Monsters...

General Yoros, Warrior, Str 13, Agl 8 (10), Stm 17, Per 13, Int 11, Lck 8; Law, HP 39, AC 17, R+2, F+4, W+2, band/shld, warhammer, longsword, longbow, pitchfork

Han Dee, (Weaver) Neutral Thief, Str 10, Agi 13, Stm 11, Per 11, Int 15, Lck 14, AC 13 (Leather), HP 25, Luck Die d6, Backstab 3, Sneak Silently 10, Hide In Shadows 9, Pick Pocket 10, Climb Sheer 10, Pick Lock 9, Find Trap 9, Disable Trap 9, Forge Doc 10, Disguise 3, Read Lang 5, Handle Poison 3, Cast Scroll d14+2, birth augur (Born under the loom) +1 to all skill checks (including thief skills), Banepicks (auto pick lock/disable trap, but lose 1d3 random ability loss, if a 3 then 1 pt is perm)


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 Post subject: Re: Crawl! New Class Challenge: BARD!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:29 pm 
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Had a new idea; wanted to get it out here before I forgot it. Haven't made the chart needed yet, but it shouldn't take too much work (maybe tomorrow?).

The 'ability' I'm thinking of is a performer's reputation sometimes precedes him -- and sometimes that's good, and sometimes that's bad. The basic idea is that anytime the bard is somewhere that he could have been heard of or that he has actually performed before, when he starts a new social interaction (or is present in a party starting one), he rolls a die-type equal to his level (exceptions: d2 at 1st, d10 at 9th) and adds his Personality mod. Low results mean the person has a negative attitude, or an even more negative attitude than they already started with. The higher you go on the chart, the more favorable things become. And always, a natural roll of whatever is maximum for the die-type is a 'no changed attitude' result.

Some interesting things fall out of the die structure.

At low levels, you're going to invoke no reaction ("Never heard of you") or a negative reaction ("you scrabbling itinerant performers are really all just thieves, aren't you?").

The top results are just waaaaay out of reach at low levels. I figured the top result is like 14 or 15 with the person having been deeply personally touched by a performance of this Bard ("Your song got me through the worst days of my life"), and thus this person is ready to do whatever they can for the Bard and his friends.

The 'natural' result is always 'no change', which becomes rarer as your level goes higher. The bigger you are, the more folks have an opinion about you, but even so there are those that have simply never heard your name ("Madonna who?"). And even at the highest levels, you can't avoid hitting some negative results -- unless you're burning Luck.

Like I said, I should have a chart together soon for perusal.

I don't know if there is still room in the design for this idea, but personally, I really like the way it tweaks the situation of having a Bard in the party -- like traveling with a celebrity. 8)

_________________
Gnome Boy (a.k.a. "Jon") • DCC play-tester @ DDC 35, Feb 2011. • Beta DL 2111, 7:00 AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since 1977 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters - Holds the power to play gnomes at will!

Here Be DCC Monsters...

General Yoros, Warrior, Str 13, Agl 8 (10), Stm 17, Per 13, Int 11, Lck 8; Law, HP 39, AC 17, R+2, F+4, W+2, band/shld, warhammer, longsword, longbow, pitchfork

Han Dee, (Weaver) Neutral Thief, Str 10, Agi 13, Stm 11, Per 11, Int 15, Lck 14, AC 13 (Leather), HP 25, Luck Die d6, Backstab 3, Sneak Silently 10, Hide In Shadows 9, Pick Pocket 10, Climb Sheer 10, Pick Lock 9, Find Trap 9, Disable Trap 9, Forge Doc 10, Disguise 3, Read Lang 5, Handle Poison 3, Cast Scroll d14+2, birth augur (Born under the loom) +1 to all skill checks (including thief skills), Banepicks (auto pick lock/disable trap, but lose 1d3 random ability loss, if a 3 then 1 pt is perm)


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 Post subject: Re: Crawl! New Class Challenge: BARD!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:46 pm 
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Mettle: the bard adds his personality modifier as a penalty to monster (and NPC) morale checks.

Alternately, the bard could force morale checks more frequently or perhaps against targets who are normally immune to such tests.

Leader of Men: the bard adds his level to any morale checks for retainers under his command.


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 Post subject: Re: Crawl! New Class Challenge: BARD!
PostPosted: Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:55 pm 
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knighterrant wrote:
Mettle: the bard adds his personality modifier as a penalty to monster (and NPC) morale checks.

Alternately, the bard could force morale checks more frequently or perhaps against targets who are normally immune to such tests.

Leader of Men: the bard adds his level to any morale checks for retainers under his command.

This sounds a whole lot more like a set of Paladin abilities, honestly. Is there a 'backstory' I'm missing?

_________________
Gnome Boy (a.k.a. "Jon") • DCC play-tester @ DDC 35, Feb 2011. • Beta DL 2111, 7:00 AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since 1977 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters - Holds the power to play gnomes at will!

Here Be DCC Monsters...

General Yoros, Warrior, Str 13, Agl 8 (10), Stm 17, Per 13, Int 11, Lck 8; Law, HP 39, AC 17, R+2, F+4, W+2, band/shld, warhammer, longsword, longbow, pitchfork

Han Dee, (Weaver) Neutral Thief, Str 10, Agi 13, Stm 11, Per 11, Int 15, Lck 14, AC 13 (Leather), HP 25, Luck Die d6, Backstab 3, Sneak Silently 10, Hide In Shadows 9, Pick Pocket 10, Climb Sheer 10, Pick Lock 9, Find Trap 9, Disable Trap 9, Forge Doc 10, Disguise 3, Read Lang 5, Handle Poison 3, Cast Scroll d14+2, birth augur (Born under the loom) +1 to all skill checks (including thief skills), Banepicks (auto pick lock/disable trap, but lose 1d3 random ability loss, if a 3 then 1 pt is perm)


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 Post subject: Re: Crawl! New Class Challenge: BARD!
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 9:24 am 
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GnomeBoy wrote:
This sounds a whole lot more like a set of Paladin abilities, honestly. Is there a 'backstory' I'm missing?


Apparently, I'm missing something.

Reading them again, I can see your point. Maybe they could be used for the Paladin instead?

My thought with 'Mettle' was that the bard would use his wit and personality to demoralize monsters and enemies by taunting them and/or rallying his group with words and actions. With 'Leader' this bonus was intended for his 'band' or retinue of followers and servants; his fans so to speak.

As I said, looking at it again, might not make much sense for the bard at all.


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 Post subject: Re: Crawl! New Class Challenge: BARD!
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 1:57 pm 
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All right, here's what I have so far. Not sure how to make the table so I'm not. :P

Bards get d7 hit points per level. They choose paths by alignment similar to Thieves: Lawful = Path of the Orator, Neutral = Path of the Poet, Chaotic = Path of the Minstrel. Weapons training as Thief.

All parties with a Bard heal at double the normal rate when resting overnight, but they must be together (i.e., not across town at a different inn, etc).

They get a +1 to attack at level 2, increases +1/level to max of +9 at level 10.
Crit on Table 2, d10 at level 1, up to d24 at level 6, then +2/level starting at level 7 (at level 10, d24+8).

They get the following Thief skills: Pick Pocket, Disguise Self, Forge Document (each of those at +1/level), Read Languages (+1/2 levels until 7, then +1/level for 8-10; max +7 at level 10), and Cast Spell from Scroll (d10 1-2, d12 3-4, d14 5-7, d16 8-10).

Action dice: d20, d20+d14 at 5-6, d20+d16 at 7-8, d20+d16+d14 at 9-10.

Saves: +1 to all at level 1, +1 R/W at 2, +1 F at 3, +1 R/W at 4, +1 to all at 5, +1 F at 6, nothing at 7, +1 to all at 8, nothing at 9, +1 to all at 10.

Bards have a special skill called Performance. What it does depends on their Path (alignment) and the skill check (d20 + level + personality modifier). Affected targets may receive a will save to resist (DC = skill check-10).

Lawful - Path of the Orator
1 Anger d12 listeners (not PCs or henchmen, etc)
2 Anger d6 listeners
3 Anger d3 listeners
4-9 no effect
10-12 Calm d12 listeners
13-15 Calm d16 listeners
16-18 Charm d3 listeners, Calm d14 listeners
19-21 Charm d6 listeners, Calm d16 listeners
22-24 Geas 1 listeners, Charm d8 listeners, Calm d20 listeners
25-27 Geas d3 listeners, Charm d10 listeners, Calm d24 listeners
28-30 Geas d5 listeners, Charm d14 listeners, Calm d30 listeners
31-33 Geas d7 listeners, Charm d16 listeners, Calm 2d30 listeners
34+ Geas d12 listeners, Charm d20 listeners, Calm 3d30 listeners

Neutral - Path of the Poet
1 Attract d7 wandering monsters of suitable type
2 Awaken d5 plants as angry monsters
3 Awaken d3 animals as angry monsters
4-9 no effect
10-12 Calm elements (allows party to ignore first d6 of damage from elemental sources while the Bard continues to wax poetic)
13-15 As above, +d3 hit points are healed when the bard stops speaking.
16-18 As above, +d6 hit points are healed when the bard stops speaking.
19-21 As above, and the bard may speak with d3 animals and ask up to d3 questions per animal.
22-24 As above, +2d4 hit points are healed when the bard stops speaking.
25-27 As above, and the bard may speak with d3 plants and ask up to d3 questions per plant.
28-30 As above, +d12 hit points are healed when the bard stops speaking.
31-33 As above, and the bard may speak with d3 large stones and ask up to d3 questions per stone.
34+ As above, and the entire party is healed fully when resting overnight.

Chaotic - Path of the Minstrel
1 frenzy d3 opponents (as below; frenzy lasts for d3 rounds per bard level), excite d8 opponents (as below; same duration)
2 frenzy 1 opponent, excite d5 opponents
3 excite d4 opponents
4-9 no effect
10-12 excite d7 creatures (+1 to hit/damage for melee attacks)
13-15 excite d10 creatures
16-18 frenzy 1 creature (while bard sings/drums, and target can still hear/understand, target fights at +3 to hit/damage in melee, ignores first 3 hit points of damage each round, receives +3 bonus on all saves, is immune to morale checks of any kind and will not flee voluntarily), excite d14
19-21 frenzy d3, excite d16
22-24 frenzy d5, excite d20
25-27 frenzy d7, excite d24
28-30 charm 2d3 (charm lasts d3 days per bard level; target automatically frenzies when bard performs ["groupies!"]), frenzy d10, excite d30
31-33 charm 2d5, frenzy d14, excite 2d30
34+ charm 2d7, frenzy d16, excite 3d30

_________________

RoM pbp:
Hamun Ry (Wiz 4)
Str 10 Agi 15 (+1) Sta 11 Per 11 Int 17 (+2) Luc 10 (Unholy House). Align: C. AC: 14. HP: 13. Melee +1, Ranged +2. Crit: d8, I. Save: Ref +5, Fort +3, Will +4.
Spells: 1: Choking Cloud, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic (odd crystal growths), Magic Missile (mirror images), Runic Alphabet (Mortal) (ravenously hungry), Ventriloquism (rain of frogs)
2: Detect Invisible, Levitate (extremely difficult, d14), Mirror Image (20% chance to raise/lower luck by 1d3 points).
Equip: Ring of the Sand Djinn: +2 AC/saves, Invisibility for 1min/spellburn point, or unmake for great, unknown effect. Padded Armor, Longsword, Longbow, quiver w/20 steel-tipped arrows, 10 silver-tipped arrows, backpack, spellbook, quill and ink, sturdy parchment (10 sheets), 5 days rations, high leather boots, belt w/ belt pouch, gray robe, dark gray hooded cloak. Also carries 3 small mechanical toys: wind-up mouse, wooden puzzle cube, small jewelry box that plays a little tune.


Last edited by beermotor on Mon Sep 10, 2012 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Crawl! New Class Challenge: BARD!
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 2:02 pm 
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Probably appropriate to have "circumstance modifiers" for the Performance skill checks, too... perhaps as follows:

Opposed alignment creatures: -1
Adjacent alignment creatures: 0
Co-alignment creatures: +1

(recent) Combat between bard or bard's party and listeners: -2
(distant) combat between bard or bard's party and listeners: -1

Performance is for a
wedding: +2
funeral: +1
birth: +1


Stuff like that. And, of course, if they can't understand you, because they don't speak your language or you don't speak theirs, that's a -10 or alternatively a +10 to their will save to resist.

_________________

RoM pbp:
Hamun Ry (Wiz 4)
Str 10 Agi 15 (+1) Sta 11 Per 11 Int 17 (+2) Luc 10 (Unholy House). Align: C. AC: 14. HP: 13. Melee +1, Ranged +2. Crit: d8, I. Save: Ref +5, Fort +3, Will +4.
Spells: 1: Choking Cloud, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic (odd crystal growths), Magic Missile (mirror images), Runic Alphabet (Mortal) (ravenously hungry), Ventriloquism (rain of frogs)
2: Detect Invisible, Levitate (extremely difficult, d14), Mirror Image (20% chance to raise/lower luck by 1d3 points).
Equip: Ring of the Sand Djinn: +2 AC/saves, Invisibility for 1min/spellburn point, or unmake for great, unknown effect. Padded Armor, Longsword, Longbow, quiver w/20 steel-tipped arrows, 10 silver-tipped arrows, backpack, spellbook, quill and ink, sturdy parchment (10 sheets), 5 days rations, high leather boots, belt w/ belt pouch, gray robe, dark gray hooded cloak. Also carries 3 small mechanical toys: wind-up mouse, wooden puzzle cube, small jewelry box that plays a little tune.


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 Post subject: Re: Crawl! New Class Challenge: BARD!
PostPosted: Wed Sep 05, 2012 5:09 pm 
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"skill check (d20 + level + personality modifier). Affected targets may receive a will save to resist (DC = skill check-10)."

-10 ??
So basically a bard of level 1 to 5 is useless almost half the time, at best??


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 Post subject: Re: Crawl! New Class Challenge: BARD!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 3:55 am 
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Not necessarily. I didn't really think the lower effects called for a will save, but Charm and Geas probably do. Hence, "may receive a will save." The issue is it's not as dangerous as magic, and can potentially be used more often. Don't want it to be absurdly powerful.

_________________

RoM pbp:
Hamun Ry (Wiz 4)
Str 10 Agi 15 (+1) Sta 11 Per 11 Int 17 (+2) Luc 10 (Unholy House). Align: C. AC: 14. HP: 13. Melee +1, Ranged +2. Crit: d8, I. Save: Ref +5, Fort +3, Will +4.
Spells: 1: Choking Cloud, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic (odd crystal growths), Magic Missile (mirror images), Runic Alphabet (Mortal) (ravenously hungry), Ventriloquism (rain of frogs)
2: Detect Invisible, Levitate (extremely difficult, d14), Mirror Image (20% chance to raise/lower luck by 1d3 points).
Equip: Ring of the Sand Djinn: +2 AC/saves, Invisibility for 1min/spellburn point, or unmake for great, unknown effect. Padded Armor, Longsword, Longbow, quiver w/20 steel-tipped arrows, 10 silver-tipped arrows, backpack, spellbook, quill and ink, sturdy parchment (10 sheets), 5 days rations, high leather boots, belt w/ belt pouch, gray robe, dark gray hooded cloak. Also carries 3 small mechanical toys: wind-up mouse, wooden puzzle cube, small jewelry box that plays a little tune.


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 Post subject: Re: Crawl! New Class Challenge: BARD!
PostPosted: Thu Sep 06, 2012 5:38 am 
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I see your point. But it still feels like a subpar thief at low level to me..
Then again, almost all of my rpging is done at lower levels (by choice and because my games are monthly at best), so I'm obviously biased.


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