Wizard vs Elf
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Wizard vs Elf
Role playing aside and just looking at the classes, what is the advantage of playing a wizard over an elf?
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- Far-Sighted Wanderer
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Re: Wizard vs Elf
Don't have things right in front of me, but the first thing that comes to mind is I recall Wizards have a higher max spells than the Elf.
Re: Wizard vs Elf
Yup. Don't forget the iron sensitivity, which can make life very difficult for an elf, too.mindshadow2k wrote:Don't have things right in front of me, but the first thing that comes to mind is I recall Wizards have a higher max spells than the Elf.
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- Cold-Blooded Diabolist
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Re: Wizard vs Elf
The main advantage, I find, is that each character has a 69% chance of being able to be a Wizard vs. a 31% chance that their class is decided for them, and only a third of those whose class is determined for them by occupation roll are Elf characters.
A 69% chance to be a Wizard vs. a 10% chance to be an Elf - seems a pretty significant advantage.
A 69% chance to be a Wizard vs. a 10% chance to be an Elf - seems a pretty significant advantage.
Re: Wizard vs Elf
The wizard does get 1 more spell, but with Mercurial magic that is not always an advantage.
The iron sensitivity deals 1 hp of damage a day, but since the elf also has higher hit dice is this really an advantage? Also, 1st level elf starts with Mithril armor that negates this damage since its not iron. The weapon they get is also mithril. So no disadvantage at all, but an advantage in armor and weapons!
I like the percentages and with the advantages listed above as well as infravision, immunities to sleep and paralysis, heightened senses, luck on a preferred spell and action dice being used for attacks or spells, this explains why those numbers are stacked that way. For those lucky 10%, they do get more than a wizard!
The iron sensitivity deals 1 hp of damage a day, but since the elf also has higher hit dice is this really an advantage? Also, 1st level elf starts with Mithril armor that negates this damage since its not iron. The weapon they get is also mithril. So no disadvantage at all, but an advantage in armor and weapons!
I like the percentages and with the advantages listed above as well as infravision, immunities to sleep and paralysis, heightened senses, luck on a preferred spell and action dice being used for attacks or spells, this explains why those numbers are stacked that way. For those lucky 10%, they do get more than a wizard!
Re: Wizard vs Elf
Not really. As posted in THIS thread:Rennrh wrote:The iron sensitivity deals 1 hp of damage a day, but since the elf also has higher hit dice is this really an advantage? Also, 1st level elf starts with Mithril armor that negates this damage since its not iron. The weapon they get is also mithril. So no disadvantage at all, but an advantage in armor and weapons!
Also:Colin wrote:Elves are supposed to be sensitive to iron period, weapons, armour, utensils, that gate over there, iron itself is what is poisonous to the elves. It's derived from mythology, where iron was poisonous to the fae, and could even deter them as they were loathe to touch it or even go near it. Think of it more like a supernatural bane and you're on the right track. It notes that even exposure (close proximity) is uncomfortable for elves. I think enforcing the discomfort (including potential penalties after a few rounds of very close proximity) and damage from iron are vital tools in helping balance the class.
Also:Colin wrote:Consider that they can only purchase one weapon and piece of armour in mithril at normal cost once, and that it's not really any better than normal iron rules-wise. Neither item is magical, but both items *are* desirable and expensive. Many magical weapons and armours are still going to be iron-based (and thus still deleterious to elves), plus anyone and everyone who knows what mithril is will take a very keen interest in the elven character, making them a likely target of thieves, thugs, and anyone else who desires mithril or recognizes its worth. Add in the risk of such mithril items getting lost, broken, confiscated, or otherwise removed from play, and the elf character is going to find that they are as much liability as benefit.
Also:Colin wrote:Unless a magical item is described as being made of something that's distinctly "not iron/steel" then I assume it's iron/steel, but I haven't used any old modules for DCC yet, so haven't really encountered the "generic +1 weapon" approach. I'd probably rule that 90% of such items are iron/steel-based, with the rest being made of unusual metals, alloys, or other substances. Then again, I'm not fussed about life being tough for elves; they can fight, wear armour, and wield magic, so while not distinctly the best at any of those things, they do have versatility and choice on their side. I think the difficulties caused by the iron bane are great for roleplaying too; really helps make the elves feel less human.
TheNobleDrake wrote:I think it is also worth specifically noting that an Elf character isn't likely to get the last weapon and armor that they will ever want to be able to use when they get their once ever mithril discount, since that is specifically an option they have at 1st level - I know my buddy that is playing an Elf (with a particularly high Strength and moderate Intelligence) has plans to quest for mithril plate mail which he couldn't possibly have afforded at 1st level... and he'll need more mithril to re-forge his sword if he shatters it on a fumble again.
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- Deft-Handed Cutpurse
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Re: Wizard vs Elf
A huge advantage of wizards (previously mentioned elsewhere, I think) is that wizards get to choose to be wizards, which means the player probably only goes with a wizard if the character has a good intelligence. If a player rolls these numbers: 10, 10, 8, 8, 17, 10 and happens to get the 17 in intelligence, he's got a pretty good wizard going, and would also be a decent elf. But if the same numbers are rolled with the 8's in strength and intelligence and the 17 in personality, the character would be rather lame as an elf.
This is true to some extent of all the nonhuman classes. If you roll a mix of good and bad stats, a human can pick the class best suited to the good stats. But if a nonhuman has the bad stats in the wrong slot, the character becomes much less viable. Consider the following stats:
Str 6
Agil 8
Sta 16
Per 18
Int 5
Luck 9
I'd give that guy a shot as a cleric in a a heartbeat. But if I rolled any dwarf, elf, or halfling occupation, he'd be on the front line in the funnel adventure for sure.
This is true to some extent of all the nonhuman classes. If you roll a mix of good and bad stats, a human can pick the class best suited to the good stats. But if a nonhuman has the bad stats in the wrong slot, the character becomes much less viable. Consider the following stats:
Str 6
Agil 8
Sta 16
Per 18
Int 5
Luck 9
I'd give that guy a shot as a cleric in a a heartbeat. But if I rolled any dwarf, elf, or halfling occupation, he'd be on the front line in the funnel adventure for sure.
Purple Planeteers:
Jingles Coinclink, Halfling, hag-hacked into haggis
Nurzual the Faceter – M Jwlr - Wiz - L
S 12 A 8 (-1) S 9 P 11 I 15 (+1) L 10
AC 9 HP 6 Mv 30 Init -1 Ref 0 Fort 0 Will 1
Chalk 1pc, 20 gp Gem, Backpack, 10’ chain, 10 sheets parchment, Kith pouch, small hammer, ray-gun, Rope 50', 5gp 10sp 274 cp
shortsword +0(1d6)
Ch Psn (no MM), Clr Spr 65, Force Manip 81, Rd Mag 12, Spidr Cl 69
Pl.Common (basic)
Snooth Inksplot Scribe RIP under cave-in, a crushing loss
Qort Quiddlegit M Hlr - Cler - N(C?)
S 11 temp 14 (+1) A 11 temp 14 (+1) S 6 (-1) P 5 (-2) I 6 (-1) L 5 (-2)
AC 10 temp 11 HP 8 Mov 30 Init 0 Ref t+1 Fort 0 Will -1
club +0 (1d4+1t) - hand mirror, holy wtr, wtrskin Kith drink 12 oz drunk, 31 cp
-2 Ms fire damage
Det Magic
Brandybland Shoetree F Coblr N
S 10 A 9 S 10 P 8 (-1) I 9 L 9
AC 14 HP 1 Mov 30 Init 0 Ref 0 Fort 0; Will -1
gldtr glaive +0 (1d10) - gldtr ch mail - Fe spike, shoehorn, 48 cp
Prof: dagger
Jingles Coinclink, Halfling, hag-hacked into haggis
Nurzual the Faceter – M Jwlr - Wiz - L
S 12 A 8 (-1) S 9 P 11 I 15 (+1) L 10
AC 9 HP 6 Mv 30 Init -1 Ref 0 Fort 0 Will 1
Chalk 1pc, 20 gp Gem, Backpack, 10’ chain, 10 sheets parchment, Kith pouch, small hammer, ray-gun, Rope 50', 5gp 10sp 274 cp
shortsword +0(1d6)
Ch Psn (no MM), Clr Spr 65, Force Manip 81, Rd Mag 12, Spidr Cl 69
Pl.Common (basic)
Snooth Inksplot Scribe RIP under cave-in, a crushing loss
Qort Quiddlegit M Hlr - Cler - N(C?)
S 11 temp 14 (+1) A 11 temp 14 (+1) S 6 (-1) P 5 (-2) I 6 (-1) L 5 (-2)
AC 10 temp 11 HP 8 Mov 30 Init 0 Ref t+1 Fort 0 Will -1
club +0 (1d4+1t) - hand mirror, holy wtr, wtrskin Kith drink 12 oz drunk, 31 cp
-2 Ms fire damage
Det Magic
Brandybland Shoetree F Coblr N
S 10 A 9 S 10 P 8 (-1) I 9 L 9
AC 14 HP 1 Mov 30 Init 0 Ref 0 Fort 0; Will -1
gldtr glaive +0 (1d10) - gldtr ch mail - Fe spike, shoehorn, 48 cp
Prof: dagger
Re: Wizard vs Elf
If asked which of two options is more advantageous, the fact that one of the options is more likely is not an "advantage." If someone asked "what's the advantage to playing the lottery and losing vs. playing and winning?", it would make little sense to respond "losing has a significant advantage because you have a much higher likelihood of losing."TheNobleDrake wrote:The main advantage, I find, is that each character has a 69% chance of being able to be a Wizard vs. a 31% chance that their class is decided for them, and only a third of those whose class is determined for them by occupation roll are Elf characters.
A 69% chance to be a Wizard vs. a 10% chance to be an Elf - seems a pretty significant advantage.
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- Cold-Blooded Diabolist
- Posts: 525
- Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:36 am
Re: Wizard vs Elf
That's a terrible way to look at things... playing a Wizard is not losing the lottery, even if playing an Elf is winning the lottery.jozxyqk wrote:If asked which of two options is more advantageous, the fact that one of the options is more likely is not an "advantage." If someone asked "what's the advantage to playing the lottery and losing vs. playing and winning?", it would make little sense to respond "losing has a significant advantage because you have a much higher likelihood of losing."TheNobleDrake wrote:The main advantage, I find, is that each character has a 69% chance of being able to be a Wizard vs. a 31% chance that their class is decided for them, and only a third of those whose class is determined for them by occupation roll are Elf characters.
A 69% chance to be a Wizard vs. a 10% chance to be an Elf - seems a pretty significant advantage.
It's more like Wizard and Elf are two different cars - both get you from point A to point B comfortably, but one of them is more extravagant than the other... like the wizard is a high-end Audi and the Elf is a Bentley: the point is you still win a car even if you end up as a Wizard.
Your lottery example would only be accurate (and only remotely at that) if winning was getting to play an Elf and losing was not getting to play DCC at all.
Re: Wizard vs Elf
My point isn't that an elf is tremendously superior. Only that the fact that a player has a higher likelihood of becoming a wizard doesn't represent an "advantage" of the wizard class over the elf.TheNobleDrake wrote:That's a terrible way to look at things... playing a Wizard is not losing the lottery, even if playing an Elf is winning the lottery.jozxyqk wrote:If asked which of two options is more advantageous, the fact that one of the options is more likely is not an "advantage." If someone asked "what's the advantage to playing the lottery and losing vs. playing and winning?", it would make little sense to respond "losing has a significant advantage because you have a much higher likelihood of losing."TheNobleDrake wrote:The main advantage, I find, is that each character has a 69% chance of being able to be a Wizard vs. a 31% chance that their class is decided for them, and only a third of those whose class is determined for them by occupation roll are Elf characters.
A 69% chance to be a Wizard vs. a 10% chance to be an Elf - seems a pretty significant advantage.
It's more like Wizard and Elf are two different cars - both get you from point A to point B comfortably, but one of them is more extravagant than the other... like the wizard is a high-end Audi and the Elf is a Bentley: the point is you still win a car even if you end up as a Wizard.
Your lottery example would only be accurate (and only remotely at that) if winning was getting to play an Elf and losing was not getting to play DCC at all.
Perhaps it would be clearer to put it in terms of 0-level occupations. If someone asked "what is the advantage of being a farmer over being a cheesemaker?" An answer of "a farmer has a significant advantage because you have a 9% chance of being a farmer, and only a 1% chance of being a cheesemaker" wouldn't make sense.
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- Cold-Blooded Diabolist
- Posts: 525
- Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 1:36 am
Re: Wizard vs Elf
When randomly deciding what you get to play is mandatory - a higher chance is an advantage.
Hoping for a character that starts with (the equivalent of) a spear? Farmer has an advantage over Soldier in that regard.
Hoping for a character that casts wizard spells? Wizard has an advantage over Elf in that regard - especially since, as others mentioned, a Wizard is more likely to have a superior Intelligence score by way of rolling an Elf occupation means you are an Elf no matter your Intelligence, but rolling a Human occupation leaves you free to choose based on the way your ability scores came out if you so desire.
Hoping for a character that starts with (the equivalent of) a spear? Farmer has an advantage over Soldier in that regard.
Hoping for a character that casts wizard spells? Wizard has an advantage over Elf in that regard - especially since, as others mentioned, a Wizard is more likely to have a superior Intelligence score by way of rolling an Elf occupation means you are an Elf no matter your Intelligence, but rolling a Human occupation leaves you free to choose based on the way your ability scores came out if you so desire.
Re: Wizard vs Elf
Just injecting a highly pertinent point: rolling for Occupation is not mandatory at all, but that's admittedly something a lot of folks completely forget or overlook:
DCC RPG, page 21, 2nd paragraph wrote:Note that a character’s occupation need not be determined randomly. If a player has a strong sense of the character’s background, he should feel free to use it. Starting trained weapon and trade goods can be determined thematically with the judge’s approval.
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- Cold-Blooded Diabolist
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Re: Wizard vs Elf
That is true... I typically ignore that on account of knowing my group would invariably start handing me stack after stack of well thought out back-stories for their characters to try and distract me from all of the Mercenaries, Elven Navigators, Dwarven Blacksmith's, Wizard's Apprentices and Outlaws they desire to play as every set of 0-levels they ever get their hands on.Colin wrote:Just injecting a highly pertinent point: rolling for Occupation is not mandatory at all, but that's admittedly something a lot of folks completely forget or overlook:
DCC RPG, page 21, 2nd paragraph wrote:Note that a character’s occupation need not be determined randomly. If a player has a strong sense of the character’s background, he should feel free to use it. Starting trained weapon and trade goods can be determined thematically with the judge’s approval.
Eventually, though, I think they will get so used to not being able to power-game that they will forget to bother trying it... then that little piece of text will be useful.
Re: Wizard vs Elf
I suppose you could allow them to choose an occupation only before rolling their abilities, that way there less guarantee that the character would be optimized for the occupation. Admittedly, that doesn't solve the problem of superior starting weaponry, but it does limit a player from choosing "Elf" if he rolls high STR and INT.TheNobleDrake wrote:That is true... I typically ignore that on account of knowing my group would invariably start handing me stack after stack of well thought out back-stories for their characters to try and distract me from all of the Mercenaries, Elven Navigators, Dwarven Blacksmith's, Wizard's Apprentices and Outlaws they desire to play as every set of 0-levels they ever get their hands on.
Eventually, though, I think they will get so used to not being able to power-game that they will forget to bother trying it... then that little piece of text will be useful.
Terry Olson
Re: Wizard vs Elf
Colin wrote:Just injecting a highly pertinent point: rolling for Occupation is not mandatory at all, but that's admittedly something a lot of folks completely forget or overlook:
DCC RPG, page 21, 2nd paragraph wrote:Note that a character’s occupation need not be determined randomly. If a player has a strong sense of the character’s background, he should feel free to use it. Starting trained weapon and trade goods can be determined thematically with the judge’s approval.
LAWL....
Amusingly, I had, in fact, completely overlooked that.
I do like the randomness of it, though, but sometimes there were occupations that didn't make any sense for my campaign (elven navigator? halfling sailor? it's a desert campaign...).
Cheers to you, sir. I will keep this in mind in the future.
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- Deft-Handed Cutpurse
- Posts: 233
- Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:25 am
Re: Wizard vs Elf
So give them sand skiffs that sail across the dunes on runners!beermotor wrote:
I do like the randomness of it, though, but sometimes there were occupations that didn't make any sense for my campaign (elven navigator? halfling sailor? it's a desert campaign...).
Purple Planeteers:
Jingles Coinclink, Halfling, hag-hacked into haggis
Nurzual the Faceter – M Jwlr - Wiz - L
S 12 A 8 (-1) S 9 P 11 I 15 (+1) L 10
AC 9 HP 6 Mv 30 Init -1 Ref 0 Fort 0 Will 1
Chalk 1pc, 20 gp Gem, Backpack, 10’ chain, 10 sheets parchment, Kith pouch, small hammer, ray-gun, Rope 50', 5gp 10sp 274 cp
shortsword +0(1d6)
Ch Psn (no MM), Clr Spr 65, Force Manip 81, Rd Mag 12, Spidr Cl 69
Pl.Common (basic)
Snooth Inksplot Scribe RIP under cave-in, a crushing loss
Qort Quiddlegit M Hlr - Cler - N(C?)
S 11 temp 14 (+1) A 11 temp 14 (+1) S 6 (-1) P 5 (-2) I 6 (-1) L 5 (-2)
AC 10 temp 11 HP 8 Mov 30 Init 0 Ref t+1 Fort 0 Will -1
club +0 (1d4+1t) - hand mirror, holy wtr, wtrskin Kith drink 12 oz drunk, 31 cp
-2 Ms fire damage
Det Magic
Brandybland Shoetree F Coblr N
S 10 A 9 S 10 P 8 (-1) I 9 L 9
AC 14 HP 1 Mov 30 Init 0 Ref 0 Fort 0; Will -1
gldtr glaive +0 (1d10) - gldtr ch mail - Fe spike, shoehorn, 48 cp
Prof: dagger
Jingles Coinclink, Halfling, hag-hacked into haggis
Nurzual the Faceter – M Jwlr - Wiz - L
S 12 A 8 (-1) S 9 P 11 I 15 (+1) L 10
AC 9 HP 6 Mv 30 Init -1 Ref 0 Fort 0 Will 1
Chalk 1pc, 20 gp Gem, Backpack, 10’ chain, 10 sheets parchment, Kith pouch, small hammer, ray-gun, Rope 50', 5gp 10sp 274 cp
shortsword +0(1d6)
Ch Psn (no MM), Clr Spr 65, Force Manip 81, Rd Mag 12, Spidr Cl 69
Pl.Common (basic)
Snooth Inksplot Scribe RIP under cave-in, a crushing loss
Qort Quiddlegit M Hlr - Cler - N(C?)
S 11 temp 14 (+1) A 11 temp 14 (+1) S 6 (-1) P 5 (-2) I 6 (-1) L 5 (-2)
AC 10 temp 11 HP 8 Mov 30 Init 0 Ref t+1 Fort 0 Will -1
club +0 (1d4+1t) - hand mirror, holy wtr, wtrskin Kith drink 12 oz drunk, 31 cp
-2 Ms fire damage
Det Magic
Brandybland Shoetree F Coblr N
S 10 A 9 S 10 P 8 (-1) I 9 L 9
AC 14 HP 1 Mov 30 Init 0 Ref 0 Fort 0; Will -1
gldtr glaive +0 (1d10) - gldtr ch mail - Fe spike, shoehorn, 48 cp
Prof: dagger