Crawl! New Class Challenge: PALADIN!

[reverenddak]

Ok! Now for the next phase of the New Class Challenge. Your version of a classic class for DCC RPG can be featured in an upcoming issue of Crawl! But it's gotta be good!

Post your proposal in this thread. Don't worry about too many specific details. I want to see concepts and features that separates them from the core classes. Don't worry about tables & charts. If there are any new or weird concepts or theory behind your proposal, include them at the end of the post. Use a format like this:

Name of the Class: (i.e. Dark Knight)
Class Description: (i.e. The dark knight is blah blah blah...)
Class Features: (i.e. Hit Points, Weapon training, Alignment, Attack..., special feature 1, etc...)
Notes: (optional, i.e.The new concept, unique ideas and examples.)

This thread is specifically for the: PALADIN ONLY! Don't chime in until everyone has posted their proposals.

[Karaptis]

Is it ok to do a one size fits all for Lawful and Chaotic or should I try two seperate ones?

[BitHead0023]

Name of the Class: Paladin

Class Description: Also known as Templars, Avengers, or Crusaders, Paladins devote their lives and their blades to the service of their god. Their combat ability approaches that of Warriors, though it is focused firmly on the enemies of their faith. They have the same potential as Clerics for channeling divine power, but lack the practice in applying that potential. Their magical abilities are thus crude, and limited.

Class Features:

Hit Points: 1d10 [Paladins are more battle-hardened than Clerics, but don't quite have the durability of Warriors.]

Choosing a God: Similar to Clerics [must match his alignment]

Weapon Training: As Warrior [Possibly some limitations, based on alignment, limited ranged weapons, etc.]

Alignment:

• A Lawful Paladin is expected to protect the weak and innocent, and to place the needs of others above his own. He strives to uphold the rule of law, and serve the greater good.
  
  A Neutral Paladin cherishes life in all forms, but will shed blood to maintain the balance of nature, or between opposing forces. He is equally opposed to the abuses of a tyrannical empire, and the unrestrained cruelty of a barbarian horde.
  
  A Chaotic Paladin is expected to spread terror and seize power for his cause (or for its own sake). He is slow to trust others (but quick to betray them), and despises weakness.

Smite Evil:

• A Smite is a dramatic combat maneuver, similar to a Warrior's Mighty Deed of Arms (it can be used to Blind, Disarm, etc.). Smite Evil is not considered a 'spellcasting' ability, and doesn't require a spell check. Rather, prior to any attack roll, a Paladin can declare the attack a Smite.
  
  A Paladin's 'Smite die' modifies their attack and damage rolls, similar to a Warrior's 'Deed die' (for all attacks, not just Smites). The Paladin's 'Smite die' also determines a Smite's success. If the Smite die is 3 or higher, and the attack lands, the Smite succeeds. If the Smite die is a 2 or less, or the overall attack fails, the Smite fails as well. [Smite die progression should be worse than Warriors & Dwarves... for instance, capped at d10 at level 10. It could be tweaked if necessary, but should be high enough to allow the Paladin to reasonably improve his spell check in a fight.]
  
  A Paladin's battle-fervor is at its peak when facing the enemies of his faith. Thus, a Smite can only be successful if targeted at 'Evil'... defined as creatures of opposed alignment, those unholy to the Paladin's god, and those with clear harmful intent. A Smite used against a target not meeting those requirements (at the GM's discretion) is treated as a normal attack. That is, the 'Smite die' still applies to the attack & damage roll, but there is no extra effect from the attack.
  
  In addition to any other affects of the Smite (Blind, Disarm, etc.), a successful Smite increases the Paladin's chances for a successful spell check (by one die up the dice chain), making it easier to channel divine energies. A Paladin is expected to fight on the front lines as a Warrior, and afterward (having gained favor through battle) to tend to the wounded as a Cleric.

Channel Divine Power:

• A Paladin has limited ability to call upon the favor of his god. It is similar to a Cleric's ability, but is more narrowly focused. A Paladin can channel divine energy into the following effects (similar to the Cleric abilities/spells): Lay on Hands (gained at level 1), Turn Unholy (level 3), Detect Evil (level 5), Protection from Evil (level 7), and Blessing (level 9). [The rationale for the order of abilities is complexity. Using raw energy to heal or turn sounds pretty basic, whereas it would take more fine control to detect or ward against evil. The order also helps avoid stepping on the Cleric's toes too much regarding buffs.]
  
  To channel divine power, a Paladin makes a Spell Check. This is done by rolling 1d8 + Personality Modifier + Caster Level. If the Paladin succeeds, his god attends to his request. [By default, a first-level Paladin with no Personality bonus will fail all spell checks (and even one with a bonus of +3 will find it difficult... needing the maximum roll to succeed). This is intentional. A Paladin must use his Smite Evil ability to increase his chances of a successful spell check. Also, the d8 is a likely place to tweak if the class ends up over/underpowered]
  
  The following rules apply to a Paladin's use of divine power:
  
  • Each successful use of Smite Evil moves the Paladin one die up the dice chain - (up to a maximum of 1d20). A Paladin gains favor with his god by bringing justice to the wicked. This resets back to 1d8 when the Paladin rests at the end of the day.
    
    Each failed spell check moves the Paladin one die down the dice chain - Going below 1d3 on the dice chain means a temporary loss of spellcasting ability... until the Paladin rests (and prays) at the end of the day. Overuse of divine power risks disapproval from the Paladin's god.
    
    A natural 1 means disapproval - On a natural 1 during a spell check, a Paladin discovers that he has somehow gained the disapproval of his deity. The spell check automatically fails, bringing the Paladin down one die on the dice chain. The Paladin's maximum die on the dice chain also goes down by one... until the Paladin rests (and prays) at the end of the day. [For example, after rolling his first natural 1 for the day, any subsequent uses of Smite Evil cannot bring him over a maximum of 1d16 on his spell check. The next 1 will lower the ceiling to 1d14.]
    
    Penalties can be offset by sacrifices: Each 50 gp of sacrificed goods brings the Paladin up one step on the dice chain (up to the base... sacrifices cannot bring the paladin above 1d8 on the dice chain). Sacrifices can also restore the Paladin's maximum die on the dice chain to normal. [My thought is that a Paladin shouldn't just be able to 'buy' a cleric-level spell check, but he should be able to make sacrifices to try and appease his god.]
    
    Sinful use of divine power: As with Clerics, Paladins incur penalties to their spell check when channeling divine power for anything not appropriate to their god's core beliefs (ie: blessing or healing someone of an opposed alignment, calling on their god's aid in a frivolous manner, etc.). The penalty can range from one die on the dice chain, all the way to an immediate loss of spellcasting ability until the Paladin's deity is appeased (in extreme cases).
  Caster Level: Caster level is a measurement of a Paladin's power in channeling his god's energy. A Paladin's caster level is equal to his level as a Paladin. [Again, the thought is someone with similar raw power to a Cleric, who is just really bad at focusing that power because he's mostly worried about fighting.]
  
  Lay on Hands: As a Cleric, but with additional restrictions based on alignment: [Something else to keep the class from stepping on the Cleric's toes, and I like the concept.]
  
  • Lawful: If the Paladin heals himself while a nearby (in sight) ally, innocent, or person-of-same-alignment is more badly wounded (ie: closer to 0 hit points), the result is treated as healing someone of Adjacent alignment (and may risk disfavor). If the Paladin heals himself while a nearby ally, innocent, or person of same alignment lies dying, the result is treated as healing someone of Opposed alignment (and is likely to risk disfavor).
    
    Neutral: [I haven't thought of a comparable restriction for Neutral Paladins yet. A Neutral Paladin doesn't have a specific Opposed alignment, so maybe something based on 'balance'... ie: they're penalized if they heal someone other than the most in need?]
    
    Chaotic: If the Paladin heals an ally or person-of-same-alignment while he himself is more badly wounded (ie: closer to 0 hit points), the result is treated as healing someone of Adjacent alignment (and may risk disfavor). If the Paladin heals someone who lies dying, or heals someone of Adjacent alignment while he himself is more badly wounded, the result is treated as healing someone of Opposed alignment (and is likely to risk disfavor).
  Turn Unholy: As a Cleric.
  
  Detect Evil, and Protection from Evil: As the Cleric spells of the same name... however, the Paladins' lack of practice in channeling divine energy leads to a side effect. The manifestation of divine energy is like a beacon to 'Evil' creatures, who are able to sense the Paladin as if they were using 'Detect Good' themselves, as long as the Paladin's spell is in effect.
  
  Blessing: As the Cleric spell of the same name.

PalTable.png (57.32 KiB) Viewed 28669 times

Notes: I used the Elf as a starting point for this class, but flipped (I'd consider the Elf sort of a 80%/20% mage/fighter, and I wanted to make the Paladin a 80%/20% fighter/cleric). My overall intent is a class that can stand on the front line with the fighters & dwarves, and afterwards help the party cleric see to the wounded. To me, this requires d10 hit dice, good weapons/armor, and something like a 'Deed Die' boosting their attacks/damage. I also think their Crit Dice/Table should be worse than a Warrior or Dwarf (but better than a Thief). They should probably be limited to Crit Tables 3 & 4 (start out on 3... graduate to 4 around level 7 or so?). As for Action Dice, they should maybe miss out on the third action die warriors get at level 10.

The class has a form of Mighty Deeds, which is restricted by requiring an 'evil' target to whip up the Paladin's zeal sufficiently (that's what all their training is focused on, as opposed to a warrior's more general training). The spellcasting abilities are limited in various ways without making them useless, and where possible I tried to think of iconic sorts of rationales for the limits. I especially like the idea of using a Cleric's spell check, flipped. So instead of getting worse and worse at casting throughout a long day of adventuring, the Paladin instead starts out bad, and gets progressively better. However, they still have the chance to screw up and piss off their god... especially if they try too many 'hail-mary' attempts before sufficient Smiting. The d20 ceiling (and natural 1 penalty) prevents their check from scaling better than the Cleric after a really long day.

[reverenddak]

Is it ok to do a one size fits all for Lawful and Chaotic or should I try two seperate ones?

write it as if you're going to be creating the official and definitive paladin for DCC RPG!

[beermotor]

Etymology

From French, from Italian paladino, from Late Latin palatinus, "palace officer". Derived from the "Auxilia Palatina." The royal guards of the later Roman Empire who were named after the Palatine hill in Rome, Italy. From which the word Paladin and Palace is derived.
Pronunciation

IPA: /ˈpælədɪn/

Noun

paladin (plural paladins)

1. A heroic champion (especially a knightly one).
2. A defender or advocate of a noble cause. (A defender of faith).
3. Any of the twelve Companions of the court of Emperor Charlemagne.



Again, don't like the use of the Deed die, I feel that it takes too much away from Warriors. Instead, I'd move these in the "champion" direction (maybe like Cavaliers from Unearthed Arcana). In a certain sense, Jedi (and the Sith) are probably good examples of paladins.

What about requiring paladins to choose, instead of a deity, a cause. I use Ultima's virtue system a lot, and it could probably function well in this regard. So:

Honesty (Falsehood)
Compassion (Hatred)
Valor (Cowardice)

And the others, if you wanted...
Honor (Shame)
Justice (Wrong)
Sacrifice (Avarice)
Spirituality (Hylotheism)
Humility (Pride)

Instead of the deed die, I'd give paladins a straight +2 at first level bonus to hit, which scales up with level. Because they've pledged themselves to a cause, they may be inducted into an order and receive a mount, a suit of armor (maybe even including plate mail), a lance, and a small stipend to hire a squire. They have a strict code to adhere to, though, and must always act to uphold their chosen cause. Failure means expulsion from their respective order.

And instead of giving them offensive "smite"-type powers, I'd give them increased defensive powers. High saves (+2 to all, at level 1), the ability to Challenge opposed creatures and draw their attention (to "pull" them from comrades), the ability to Defend instead of attack and get additional bonuses to AC (up to the action dice result).

[BitHead0023]

I like the idea of championing a cause rather than a deity... it could be an interesting distinction between the Paladin and the Cleric. I just find the concept of channeling divine power/grace/etc. from a cause a little odd, though (like the old 'Cleric of an alignment' thing).

To my mind, a Paladin should be some sort of Warrior/Cleric. I just liked the 'reversed spell check' idea as a different way of limiting that part of the class... as opposed to the old 'you get spells at level 9' thing (ie: you might as well be playing a fighter in the lower levels). As for a 'cavalier', I don't really see the need for a different class. It wouldn't take much tweaking to make that from a base Warrior.

That said, I don't see the problem with spreading the 'deed dice' around. Dwarves already have it, so there's precedent in the core book. To me, it just seems like a good point of separation between the primary melee classes (the 'fighter' classes, if you will), and those which are much less suited to it (thief, halfling, cleric, elf).

[raskal]

@BitHead0023 : you will add the Level Table for the Paladin (attack bonus, crit die/table, action dice, save bonus) ?

[Troll_Mage]

Proposed Paladin Class for DCC
This includes all the tables now.

Notes:
In addition to the above rules and restrictions, the paladins attack and critical table die type progression is between the clerics and fighters.
The above rules may be too restrictive and over the top even, but in my opinion the paladin class is supposed to be the "holy paragon" of his faith or cause, should be challenging and perhaps a bit constraint in play style, for you are playing a religious zealot.
It may also overlap too much with the cleric and may need some abilities to be removed or further weakened, though I did design it to use weaker versions of the cleric's abilities.

[BitHead0023]

@BitHead0023 : you will add the Level Table for the Paladin (attack bonus, crit die/table, action dice, save bonus) ?

I've added what I had in mind for my build. It's still pretty up in the air (another easy place to tweak, if needed), but I figured the Paladin shouldn't be critting & such quite as well as a Warrior or Dwarf (but should at least get into Table 4 at some point).

[reverenddak]

Ok, time for an update. I've been watching these forums, and I've been hesitant to reply so to not influence or sway any designs.

I think it's perfectly fine, for now, to throw out your concepts and get some input on your ideas & designs. But get ready to finalize and complete the class for submission. It's OK to link to the finished class, but make sure it's viewable to the general public. I recommend using Google Docs, because you can draft the text, make tables and lists. Format is not "as" important at this time, but any tables and charts need to be complete. Also avoid any "references" to other classes. They should be complete classes. For example, "Weapon proficiency as Thief" doesn't fly, list them out. References to Mighty Deeds and Spells are fine

It's also worth noting that although some classes may not be specifically "Appendix N", the influence is there. And while DCC RPG heavily emphasises Appendix N, the way we play is heavily inspired by Old-school D&D. Quite frankly, simply and obviously, people want to play these classes. So that's the focus. All four classes are "Classic" D&D classes, and all four classes were voted for because people feel they're "missing" from DCC RPG. So there is nothing wrong with these classes having D&D flavor vs mythology or even Appendix N. That's part of the challenge. Create the class you want to see that will fill the desire of the missing class. People want to play these classes in DCC RPG, so it's probably in your best interest to make them familiar. But at the same time, the opportunity to innovate and create something new and interesting should not be ignored or dismissed.

On that note, let's give it another week! I'd like to see more concepts for each class. But start finalizing and tightening up your classes!

[oncelor]

I hadn't intended to make a paladin for the class challenge, but this is the paladin class that we have been using in our campaign, so I'll paste it here if anyone is interested. I have some vague notion to make a custom divine disapproval table for paladins (which will include a possibility for the loss of luck), but haven't done this yet. Sorry if it's not in the right format.


Paladin

Hit Points. Paladin receives 1d12 hit points per level.

Weapons and Armor. As warrior. A paladin is prohibited from using crossbows and siege-type weapons such as flaming oil.

Critical Die / Table. As dwarf.

Saving Throws. As cleric.

Action Dice. As cleric.

Champion of Law. A paladin must be lawful. Departure from his alignment may incur curses in the form of rolls on the Divine Disapproval table or as penalties on the paladin's class abilities, at the judge's discretion. A paladin may not knowingly adventure with a chaotic companion. In all things, a paladin is to be held to the highest of standards.

Vow of Poverty. A paladin may own only that which he can carry. He may own wealth only sufficient to pay for his expenses and upkeep of horse and armor. In such rare cases in which a paladin leads an order of knights, or similar, he may control wealth sufficient to meet these expenses.

Mighty Deed of Arms. Paladins get mighty deeds of arms as warriors, with dice according to the following table:
1 1d1
2 1d2
3 1d3 - the first level at which paladin MDoA's are effective
4 1d4
5 1d5
6 1d6
7 1d7
8 1d8
9 1d10
10 1d10 + 1

Cleric Abilities. Paladins receive the spells or abilities listed below at the specified level. They employ these abilities as a cleric of their level, with the exception that any roll of the ability resulting in a failure results in the paladin's inability to use the ability again for the remainder of the day. Any roll of a natural '1' results in a loss of the ability, as above, and invokes a roll of 1d6+LUCK on the Divine Disapproval table.

First Level Paladin:
Lay on Hands
Detect Evil

Third Level Paladin:
Protection from Evil
Turn Unholy
Divine Aid*

Fifth Level Paladin:
Banish
Neutralize Poison or Disease

Seventh Level Paladin:
Exorcise
Spiritual Weapon

Ninth Level Paladin:
Sanctify

* If a Divine Aid roll fails, the paladin loses this ability for a month.

Plea of the Faithful. A paladin may burn a point of luck to attempt to use a paladin ability that he has otherwise lost for the day (any of the cleric abilities above, or the smite ability).

Resistance to Disease. A paladin's heart is pure and as such he is more resistant to disease than others. Paladins receive a +4 to all rolls (saves or skill checks) made to resist disease.

Resist Evil. A paladin receives his luck bonus to his armor class when attacked by unholy creatures. A paladin receives his luck bonus to saving throws against spells cast by chaotic creatures.

Warhorse. Any warhorse which the paladin rides for at least two weeks forms a close, praeternatural bond with the paladin. A paladin may have only one such bond at any time. Such an animal can be trained to perform a number of extraordinary tricks, and has an empathic connection with the paladin. It receives maximum hit points as per its hit dice, a +4 to any rolls made to resist hunger and fatigue, and receives the paladin's deed die as a bonus on any attack and damage rolls that it makes (though the horse does not actually perform MDoA's). A paladin receives +2 on all riding checks made while riding a bonded warhorse.

Smite. Before rolling a melee attack a paladin may declare his attack to be a smite. When smiting, if the paladin hits the target, in addition to the normal attack results, the paladin makes a smite roll as outlined below. If the attack misses, no smite roll is made.

A smite result is determined by 1d20 + level + personality bonus and consulting the table below. Against unholy creatures a paladin adds his luck modifier to the roll. Against lawful creatures, a paladin rolls -2d; against neutral, -1d. A natural '1' always results in smite lost and divine disapproval. A paladin receives an additional bonus equal to his level on a roll of a natural '20'.

Smite Result Table
<=1 Fail. Smite lost for the day. Divine disapproval incurred (roll 1d6 + luck).
2-9 Fail. Smite lost for the day.
10-11 Fail. Paladin drained. -1 to Strength, Agility, or Stamina (randomly determined.)
12-13 No effect.
14-16 +1d6 damage
17-20 +2d6 damage
20-25 +3d6 damage
26-29 +4d6 damage*
30-31 +5d6 damage*
32+ +7d6 damage* If this attack kills the target, paladin must save vs Fort DC 15 or be rendered unconscious for 1d6 rounds, his body physically drained by the divine energy flowing through him.

* The paladin's weapon is regarded as a magic weapon for this attack.

Judges are encouraged to customize smite result tables unique to the deities of their campaign.

It is a matter of legend that holy swords exist which provide bonuses to paladins' smite rolls.

[BitHead0023]

I think I'm pretty close to a final version of my write-up... here it is: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uZV ... dAe-w/edit

[Troll_Mage]

I revised my original submission, the linked document now includes all the tables.

Proposed Paladin Class for DCC

Notes:
In addition to the above rules and restrictions, the paladins attack and critical table die type progression is between the clerics and fighters.
The above rules may be too restrictive and over the top even, but in my opinion the paladin class is supposed to be the "holy paragon" of his faith or cause, should be challenging and perhaps a bit constraint in play style, for you are playing a religious zealot.
It may also overlap too much with the cleric and may need some abilities to be removed or further weakened, though I did design it to use weaker versions of the cleric's abilities.

[cthulhudarren]

Right now I'd vote for oncelor's version, but with d10 HP.

Hopefully whatever is chosen would be playtested at various levels before publication?

[reverenddak]

Hopefully whatever is chosen would be playtested at various levels before publication?

I would hope that the classes would be playtested before submission. It'll be a couple months or so before the New Class Challenge issue is released, so there is time.

Any folks willing to step up and play-test these classes? I'd submit any playtest results to the original creator/writer for tweaking.

[raskal]

I revised my original submission, the linked document now includes all the tables.

Proposed Paladin Class for DCC

.

There is a small typo : "Bard Features"

A question : what is the Myria Campaign ?

[Troll_Mage]

I revised my original submission, the linked document now includes all the tables.

Proposed Paladin Class for DCC

.

There is a small typo : "Bard Features"

A question : what is the Myria Campaign ?

Thanks, fixed typo. Myria campaign is just the name for my homebrew campaign setings. Just thought I would use it to ease identification from the other paladin submissions, but have removed it.

Playtesting: One my players, this past weekend took up the paladin as a replacement for her recently dead warriors (she has lost 3 in row). So far good, not over the top or under, hopefully her pally will longer than the last 3 warriors she had. Thus far she has focused more as a back up healer with lay-on-hands and only a few smites, as she carefully watches her disapproval.

[raskal]

I revised my original submission, the linked document now includes all the tables.

Proposed Paladin Class for DCC

Notes:
./...

I do not understand the use of holy deed die.
The die is added to holy deeds rolls ? For exemple a Lay on Hands is maade with 1d20 + Personality modifier + caster level + holy deed die) ? or the holy deed die is used as for Warrior (attack and damage) ?

How are made rolls for Smite, Cause Fear and Inspire Courage ? 1d20 + Holy Deed Die ?

[raskal]

I have see some updates on the paladin class of Troll_mage.
I concluded that Paladin alway uses Smite in combat (melee and ranged).

[claytonian]

My version is dead simple
Paladin:
Serves a pantheon (not one sole god) of one alignment. Name 5 gods and their concerns. Follows a personal code. Doesn't enforce it on others.

Is not lawful stupid, but rather motivated to establish holy places etc. via treasure found in dungeons. No neutral paladins. Chaotic paladins mutate horribly and consistently.

D9 Hit Die. Crits as a Dwarf. Gets a deed die.

Can do lay on of hands and its variations (remove disease, etc.) with a spell check.

[GnomeBoy]

D9 Hit Die.

Interesting that you're adding a new die type to the game.

[sheriffharry]

Serves a pantheon. Name 5 gods and their concerns.

That sequence is quite simply amazing.
I don't really know what you meant. Nobody does I guess, but the possibilities here are really endless, game-wise.

Of course, that would need a really coherent campaign mythos and very dedicated players to really work, and 30 years down the road I know that is wishful thinking and not really feasible, but a dawn good concept nonetheless!

Cheers!

[reverenddak]

Ok guys! Poll will be posted tonight or tomorrow, make sure I have the correct links:

Paladin by BitHead0023 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uZV ... dAe-w/edit
Paladin by Troll_Mage https://docs.google.com/document/d/1B5h ... gPTjE/edit
Paladin by oncelor http://www.goodman-games.com/forums/vie ... 346#p90346
Paladin by claytonian http://www.goodman-games.com/forums/vie ... 853#p91853

[claytonian]

D9 Hit Die.

Interesting that you're adding a new die type to the game.

Yeah... I've been spoiled by online die-rollers. A d10 will do I suppose...

[ragboy]

Voooote!