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 Post subject: Patrons and Gods, a question...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:31 pm 
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Hard-Bitten Adventurer
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This may sound silly, but are Patrons and Gods the same thing?

At first I wanted to say Yes, they are the same. Then I wondered why none of the Gods on page 32 had entries like the Patrons, except for Azi Dahaka and Bobugbubilz.

I suppose that is because they are not only Gods but can be Patrons to Wizards as well.

So if I create a "God" do I really need to write up an Invoke Patron, Patron Taint, Patron spells & spellburn charts? It seems that none of those charts would matter to a Cleric.

It seems that for example Sezrekan would NOT be a god.

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 Post subject: Re: Patrons and Gods, a question...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 6:58 pm 
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There is an overlap.

All gods may be patrons, but most do not deign to be.

Not all patrons are gods; indeed, the vast majority are not.

Think of it this way: On a supernatural scale of 1 to 10, if you are a 7+ you are a god, whereas if you are a 4-10 you may or may not be a patron, with few who are 7s, fewer yet who are 8s, less so 9s, and 10s? Very, very unlikely.

Patrons bargain. If you do that, I will do this. Gods command. You do that. I may choose to do this to help you, but I don't have to, and you'd better not bug me too often.......

If you look at this thread (http://www.goodman-games.com/forums/vie ... 60&t=38936), most gods need no more patron information than "Aganar as a Patron: Aganar does not respond when invoked for a Patron Bond spell."

I hope that helps.

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Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.


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 Post subject: Re: Patrons and Gods, a question...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:00 pm 
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Location: N KY / Greater Cincinnati area
Page 320
Quote:
Patrons are not always gods. A patron can be any powerful
supernatural creature. In fact they are usually demons, devils,
and demi-gods, not full deities. To deign low enough to
engage in compacts with mortals would not be flattering to
a deity’s ego.


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 Post subject: Re: Patrons and Gods, a question...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:01 pm 
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Oh....one more thing.

Because Aganar doesn't respond to Invoke Patron today doesn't mean he cannot tomorrow, if you so choose, and vice versa. Both gods and patrons are allowed to be choosy. No roll of the dice dictates what they must do.

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SoBH pbp:

Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.


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 Post subject: Re: Patrons and Gods, a question...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:40 pm 
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All gods may be patrons, but most do not deign to be.

Not all patrons are gods; indeed, the vast majority are not.

If you look at this thread (viewtopic.php?f=60&t=38936), most gods need no more patron information than "Aganar as a Patron: Aganar does not respond when invoked for a Patron Bond spell."


Ah, yes that does help. I am trying to use my Judges Guild "Unknown Gods" book as a source for more Gods and Patrons, and I was thinking I really didn't want to have to spend that much time writing up charts....

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Ah well, who wants to live forever? DIE!
worldoferoc.blogspot.com


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 Post subject: Re: Patrons and Gods, a question...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 7:46 pm 
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themightyeroc wrote:
All gods may be patrons, but most do not deign to be.

Not all patrons are gods; indeed, the vast majority are not.

If you look at this thread (http://www.goodman-games.com/forums/vie ... 60&t=38936), most gods need no more patron information than "Aganar as a Patron: Aganar does not respond when invoked for a Patron Bond spell."


Ah, yes that does help. I am trying to use my Judges Guild "Unknown Gods" book as a source for more Gods and Patrons, and I was thinking I really didn't want to have to spend that much time writing up charts....


A source for more gods, yes.

A source for more patrons? I am involved in this: http://www.indiegogo.com/Unusualsuspects

Samples on my blog: http://ravencrowking.blogspot.ca/

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SoBH pbp:

Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.


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 Post subject: Re: Patrons and Gods, a question...
PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 11:02 pm 
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Mighty-Thewed Reaver

Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:44 am
Posts: 341
Rick wrote:
Page 320
Quote:
Patrons are not always gods. A patron can be any powerful
supernatural creature. In fact they are usually demons, devils,
and demi-gods, not full deities. To deign low enough to
engage in compacts with mortals would not be flattering to
a deity’s ego.


Don't tell that to Perseus or Hercules... :wink:

I'm operating under the idea that Deities with 'magic' listed as one of their spheres of influence are fair game for conversion into full Patrons; but is even riskier than working with the beings that are most often sought out for such compacts, and has even greater obligations/ duties for the wizard to uphold. After all, a demon or supernatural being can torment, maim, corrupt and even kill the wizard when they are displeased: but a peeved Deity can do all of that and do things like erase your character from having ever existed... if you're lucky. :mrgreen:

The biggest obstacle I run into when I convert a Deity into a Patron is having to devise 'corruptions' for Deities who are lawful. That's how I ended up with a merits and demerits system for Aristemis.


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 Post subject: Re: Patrons and Gods, a question...
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:23 am 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 6:19 pm
Posts: 521
themightyeroc wrote:
This may sound silly, but are Patrons and Gods the same thing?

At first I wanted to say Yes, they are the same. Then I wondered why none of the Gods on page 32 had entries like the Patrons, except for Azi Dahaka and Bobugbubilz.

I suppose that is because they are not only Gods but can be Patrons to Wizards as well.

So if I create a "God" do I really need to write up an Invoke Patron, Patron Taint, Patron spells & spellburn charts? It seems that none of those charts would matter to a Cleric.

It seems that for example Sezrekan would NOT be a god.


I'm making it merely a matter of perception in my campaign... for example (slight preview of Angels, Daemons and Beings Between):

- Agaderathil, the Black Between the Stars -- started as an obscure patron to a cabal of astrologers, but soon had a cult following and then, a millennium later, was considered a major deity by many. The Great Void, as it was called, soon consumed the world with its thirst for hopelessness -- but the power it derived from this allowed it to seep into other worlds and other dimensions -- where it begins as an obscure patron to various cabals. So, even at the height of its power, it was a deity to a general clergy and a patron to a select cabal that could extract even more power from it -- though at a great price.

- Myrddin -- within the confines of the Pit, a vile bog formed from the effluvia of the great city of Ugama, Myrddin is a god -- worshiped by those on the extreme margins of society. The priests among these downtrodden are called Zombi -- and have all the "trappings" of a cleric. Outside of the Pit, Myrddin's power is tapped by those with the secret signs and names that bind them to the entity. For them, he is a supernatural patron, but a minor one. A hundred miles from the Pit and the River Rgene that flows out of it, neither cleric nor servant wizard can invoke Myrddin.

I am NOT creating full deity write-ups of every patron I develop for my home game -- nor am I doing full patron write-ups for every deity, but I am certainly not putting either into a tight little box. Supernatural entities are defined by the folks that acknowledge (or even refuse to acknowledge) them. To a half-crazed, loner wizard, whatever he can coerce power from is a patron. To the scheming, power-hungry priest, whomever he can convince to worship (and thus add power to) the entity calls the thing god. It's the hazy (and not the clearly defined) that makes it Appendix N.

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The Mystic Bull: Our new publishing website. Have a submission? PM me.
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 Post subject: Re: Patrons and Gods, a question...
PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:28 am 
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Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 6:19 pm
Posts: 521
themightyeroc wrote:
Ah, yes that does help. I am trying to use my Judges Guild "Unknown Gods" book as a source for more Gods and Patrons, and I was thinking I really didn't want to have to spend that much time writing up charts....


As crazy as it sounds, I'm toying with absolutely NO definition on what you get when you Invoke Patron. Possibly a bulleted list of ideas that I can spit out on the fly. The worst thing that can happen, in my opinion, is for a player to burn Luck on a Spell Check so that he or she can get the "super bad ass result I got last time." I'd much rather see someone crestfallen when they realize that patrons don't play by anyone's rules... and things just got less certain.

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AKA Paul Wolfe
The Mystic Bull: Our new publishing website. Have a submission? PM me.
In the Prison of the Squid Sorcerer: 12 Short Adventures for DCC!
The God-Seed Awakens: 3rd Level Adventure for DCC. New patron, new spells, lots of new monsters and the living weapons of the Empire of Thal!
My Gamer Profile


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 Post subject: Re: Patrons and Gods, a question...
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:44 pm 
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Alright, so it seems that for GODs I really don't need much more than the following:

NAME: ______________
Alignment:___________
Preferred Weapon:_______
Symbol:______________
Short descriptive write up, and notes on any specific spells they would grant Clerics.

"Unknown Gods" also has a cool D6 Disposition chart for each God. I will use that for when the Cleric communes with the Diety could make things interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: Patrons and Gods, a question...
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:59 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:00 am
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You may want to go a step further and define which spells are available for each god, if you want to constrain that dynamic.


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 Post subject: Re: Patrons and Gods, a question...
PostPosted: Thu Aug 16, 2012 9:19 am 
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themightyeroc wrote:
Short descriptive write up, and notes on any specific spells they would grant Clerics.


This is the write up I use. The idea for me is to make the god very integral to the lives of everyone -- with High Holy Days, ceremonies, and "Mysteries" which are powers that a cleric can be allowed to learn -- as a reward for service, etc. The Aligned/Neutral/Opposed continuum is necessary, especially for the clerical healing power. I haven't yet added "unholy creatures" for the purposes of turning.

I'm using Ceremonies as a ready role-playing vehicle -- this gives the cleric a "place" in the world. Blessing certain mundane actions (marriages, births, funerals) and then additional blessings related to the god's sphere of influence. These, I've found, also make great hooks for the cleric character -- a high priest could send the cleric to a village to perform the Tradewind ceremony on the fishing fleet for the season -- adventure proceeds from there.

Probably overkill, but I feel like the Patron system added a level of detail that has such widespread potential to enhance the depth of the game. Gods certainly shouldn't be left out, since they are technically even more pervasive than Patrons as far as the society at large goes.

Udjen (Dasé)
The Father Merchant (The Fat Slaver); Wealth, Culture, Negotiation, and Power
Aligned Powers: Spaeluc, Ymeick, Olorifriit, Shalavim
Neutral Powers: All Elven gods
Opposed Powers: Galabdoth and Hedra , All Kregin and Vanar gods and patrons

Mysteries
  • Influence: The cleric can make a Spell Check (CL 4) to change a subject’s attitude one step. (CL 6) affects 2d4 HD humanoids. (CL 10) affects 2d8 HD humanoids and monsters.
  • Rally: The cleric can make a Spell Check (CL 4 ) to change an ally’s morale by one step. (CL 6 ) affects 2d4 HD humanoids. (CL 10 ) affects 2d8 HD humanoids and animals.
High Holy Day: Jarun 41
Holidays: Trade Wind (Jarun 42-47) , Rime (Avaril ~4), Fat Market (Bleak 16-25)
Ceremonies
  • Blessings of the Father – (CL 8 ) – Marriage pact
  • Trade Wind – (CL 4 ) – Blessing on ship or caravan
  • Boon of the Fat Market (CL 8 ) – Sales are 10% higher
  • Rime of the Master (CL 4 ) – Ceremony marking the end of Winter
Tenets
  • Render to the Father – Prayer three times daily and 20% tithing per month.
  • Light of Civilization – On pain of slavery, bring civilization to the barbarian.
  • Protector of the Coin - Engage in commercial prospects that spread the wealth of the Father.

_________________
AKA Paul Wolfe
The Mystic Bull: Our new publishing website. Have a submission? PM me.
In the Prison of the Squid Sorcerer: 12 Short Adventures for DCC!
The God-Seed Awakens: 3rd Level Adventure for DCC. New patron, new spells, lots of new monsters and the living weapons of the Empire of Thal!
My Gamer Profile


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 Post subject: Re: Patrons and Gods, a question...
PostPosted: Tue Aug 20, 2013 8:43 pm 
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Posts: 7
Another thing I'm adding to my own personal deity write ups are a short list of possible sins and deeds (with the help of some of my players). Time/place of worship is another note, sun down, dusk, in a meadow, at a temple, etc.


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