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 Post subject: Why is Cthulhu Neutral?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:09 am 
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It certainly seems to me that he and his worshipers should be chaotic. I mean he wants to slay and destroy everything and eat, and his worshipers are usually insane. I don't think of a Cthulhu cultist as being particularly philosophical or worried about the balance. The are interested in power at any cost.

Is the reason being that they needed more Neutral patrons?


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Cthulhu Neutral?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:12 am 
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I think the idea is that Cthulu existed prior to the constructions of Lawful and Neutral and is outside of the struggle of order vs. entropy.

At least, that's how I explain it to my players when they ask this question.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Cthulhu Neutral?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:37 am 
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Also, Great Cthulhu is simply uncaring, and is not involved in the struggles between Law and Chaos. He merely wishes to remain undisturbed and finish his ice cream in peace.

Image

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Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Cthulhu Neutral?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:58 am 
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Yep, basically Cthulhu does not give one fig about lesser beings; we're inconsequential, we're insects. Are you Chaotic, for example, if you kill a nest of ants? To Cthulhu, we're a nest of ants at best, a potentially tasty snack and possible source of mild amusement or irritation otherwise.

Colin


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Cthulhu Neutral?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:08 am 
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Allow me to be the descenting vote on this. I totally agree that Cthulhu and his cultists (notice the big C under Deep Ones' alignment) are highly chaotic. I use Deities and Demigods out of sentimentality anyways but if I were to use the gods from the book, I would change it to C.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Cthulhu Neutral?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:42 am 
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I think an argument could be made that Cthulhu is Neutral, but most of his followers are Chaotic. I say "most" because it's possible to imagine a follower and small cult group more invested due to curiosity/scholarship and a fatalistic attitude (some more Neutral in outlook).

Colin


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Cthulhu Neutral?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:51 am 
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Karaptis wrote:
Allow me to be the descenting vote on this. I totally agree that Cthulhu and his cultists (notice the big C under Deep Ones' alignment) are highly chaotic. I use Deities and Demigods out of sentimentality anyways but if I were to use the gods from the book, I would change it to C.


Don't get me wrong......I would be happy with Big C being Chaotic as well. But, my understanding of JG's thinking is that the Elder Gods come before the forces of Law and Chaos, and are therefore uncaring in that struggle, which is Neutral in the DCC alignment system.

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Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Cthulhu Neutral?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:03 am 
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I've said it before. I'll say it again. Cthulhu is neutral 'cause Cthulhu just don't give a f**k.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Cthulhu Neutral?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 10:18 am 
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Maybe the reason you think he is Chaotic is all of the atrocities that have been carried out in his name.

Maybe he's not such a bad guy, y'know?

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Cthulhu Neutral?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:22 am 
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Maybe the whole beyond chaos and law argument is valid but his follwers, at least in HPL's stories, all acted chaotic (well insane which is extreme chaos to me anyways) and acted in the will of the Elder gods they each worshipped. Acting against the laws of man and nature. To me," in the beginning was the chaos of the elder gods".


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Cthulhu Neutral?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:23 am 
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And it is law that gives a **** not chaos!


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Cthulhu Neutral?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:36 am 
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I made Cthulhu chaotic in my campaign. I can see both sides of the argument, but it's a matter of play style and preference, I'm sure.

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Hamun Ry (Wiz 4)
Str 10 Agi 15 (+1) Sta 11 Per 11 Int 17 (+2) Luc 10 (Unholy House). Align: C. AC: 14. HP: 13. Melee +1, Ranged +2. Crit: d8, I. Save: Ref +5, Fort +3, Will +4.
Spells: 1: Choking Cloud, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic (odd crystal growths), Magic Missile (mirror images), Runic Alphabet (Mortal) (ravenously hungry), Ventriloquism (rain of frogs)
2: Detect Invisible, Levitate (extremely difficult, d14), Mirror Image (20% chance to raise/lower luck by 1d3 points).
Equip: Ring of the Sand Djinn: +2 AC/saves, Invisibility for 1min/spellburn point, or unmake for great, unknown effect. Padded Armor, Longsword, Longbow, quiver w/20 steel-tipped arrows, 10 silver-tipped arrows, backpack, spellbook, quill and ink, sturdy parchment (10 sheets), 5 days rations, high leather boots, belt w/ belt pouch, gray robe, dark gray hooded cloak. Also carries 3 small mechanical toys: wind-up mouse, wooden puzzle cube, small jewelry box that plays a little tune.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Cthulhu Neutral?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:54 am 
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We hope and pray that Cthulhu remains oblivious to our presence. If he takes notice he will drive you insane and eat you. That ain't Neutral. His followers pray for his return, which essentially would usher the apocalypse in a rain of blood and destruction.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Cthulhu Neutral?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:03 pm 
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beermotor wrote:
I made Cthulhu chaotic in my campaign. I can see both sides of the argument, but it's a matter of play style and preference, I'm sure.

+1


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Cthulhu Neutral?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:52 pm 
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cthulhudarren wrote:
We hope and pray that Cthulhu remains oblivious to our presence. If he takes notice he will drive you insane and eat you. That ain't Neutral. His followers pray for his return, which essentially would usher the apocalypse in a rain of blood and destruction.


He doesn't drive you insane; it's the fact that your puny mind can't handle the reality of something like Cthulhu that drives you insane. He'd eat you though, but no more maliciously than would a tiger; we barely register as being above other lower animals to him, after all, and we aren't Chaotic just because we eat "dumb animals", nor is the tiger Chaotic because it would chow on you.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Cthulhu Neutral?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:56 pm 
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Also, remember that Cthulhu destroyed Justin Bieber on South Park. He can't be all bad.....

Image

He also has that whole Prime Directive thing going, from his Starfleet days.....

Image

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SoBH pbp:

Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Cthulhu Neutral?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:06 pm 
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Colin wrote:
cthulhudarren wrote:
We hope and pray that Cthulhu remains oblivious to our presence. If he takes notice he will drive you insane and eat you. That ain't Neutral. His followers pray for his return, which essentially would usher the apocalypse in a rain of blood and destruction.


He doesn't drive you insane; it's the fact that your puny mind can't handle the reality of something like Cthulhu that drives you insane. He'd eat you though, but no more maliciously than would a tiger; we barely register as being above other lower animals to him, after all, and we aren't Chaotic just because we eat "dumb animals", nor is the tiger Chaotic because it would chow on you.


I thought he broadcast insanity wide-band, kind of like conservative talk radio.

But on the other hand, we destroy our world too. We're more evil than Cthulhu, bless his squidly heart.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Cthulhu Neutral?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:16 pm 
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Chaotic does not mean evil, at least not to me, in this game. Civilization and attempts to order the universe are Lawful, attempts to undermine that order is Chaotic. Cthulhu is Neutral due to his indifference to these struggling forces.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Cthulhu Neutral?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:26 pm 
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Sorry praying for your god to come back when the stars are right and destroy civilization is chaotic! He's just very powerful chaos but still chaos.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Cthulhu Neutral?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:27 pm 
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I do love these debates by the way!


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Cthulhu Neutral?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:52 pm 
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Colin wrote:
I think an argument could be made that Cthulhu is Neutral, but most of his followers are Chaotic.

I think this is an important distinction. Puny human intellect does not always properly understand the workings of MIGHTY GODS. One can serve a Lawful power, while being Chaotic themselves (and vice versa). It always frustrated me in D&D when DMs told me my cleric had to worship a deity of the same or similar alignment.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is Cthulhu Neutral?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:57 pm 
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mythfish wrote:
Colin wrote:
I think an argument could be made that Cthulhu is Neutral, but most of his followers are Chaotic.

I think this is an important distinction. Puny human intellect does not always properly understand the workings of MIGHTY GODS. One can serve a Lawful power, while being Chaotic themselves (and vice versa). It always frustrated me in D&D when DMs told me my cleric had to worship a deity of the same or similar alignment.

Excellent point. Many fantasy stories are ripe with "bad" clerics who twist or misunderstand their deity's message.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Cthulhu Neutral?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:10 pm 
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Karaptis wrote:
Sorry praying for your god to come back when the stars are right and destroy civilization is chaotic! He's just very powerful chaos but still chaos.


That's the actions of some of his cultists, not of Cthulhu himself. Remember, Cthulhu and his ilk were here long before humanity arose just like the Elder Things they were warring with (and who happened to kickstart life on the planet); to Cthulhu, we're these tiny insignificant bestial things that appeared about a minute ago, have overrun the place while he was taking a nap, and have only the singular positive trait of tasting good dipped in BBQ sauce. :lol:

It's also important to remember that Cthulhu and his ilk also have a civilization of their own, and that is also significantly more advanced. What we call "civilization" he'd call a "nest", and cleaning it up is simply a case of squashing the bugs and ensuring his own civilization reascends on the planet it has much more claim to anyway. In fact, you could even rule that he's Lawful, as Lawful civilizations also war with and conquer/destroy each other periodically. ;)

Colin


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Cthulhu Neutral?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:48 pm 
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Yeah between what Mythfish said and Colin's last post, I am pondering this longer. By the way Colin, you don't have to say BBQ sauce for us yanks. HP sauce kicks ass.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is Cthulhu Neutral?
PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:13 pm 
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HP is indeed awesome, but the savory spicy and salty goodness of Lea & Perrins Worcestershire Sauce is the one to beat. :)

Colin


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