Warrior´s Strategy Guide
I bought it. Very good stuff. The first intelligent book about fighting. But there is a mistake at the Power attack tables. The otimal attack deduciton numbers are wrong because you have to add your Strength-Modifier and you can therfore switch to a column in which a second attack is part of the calculation which you do not actually have. For example take a fifth level fighter with strength 16. He has only one attack but is considered to have 2, because 5 bab + 3 strenth-modifier =8 and he is traeted as having a + 8 bab for purposes of finding out the optimal attack deduction. with bab +8 you are consired to have 2 attacks but a fifth level fighter has only 1 attack.
Warrior´s Strategy Guide
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goodmangames
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Yup, we caught that after it was too late to make any changes. Putting together a book like this was a challenge... even with a rules editor (who spent quite a while with a calculator double-checking everything) and an editor after him, some errors slipped through. But don't worry, the wizard strategy guide will be absolutely perfect. 
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Particle_Man
more errors in Warrior Guide
There were some other problems with the warrior book:
1) On page 11 of the PHB, under racial ability adjustments, it says "If these changes put your score above 18 or below 3, that's ok, except in the case of Intelligence, which does not go below 3". Yet in your book on p. 10, in the sidebar "How much Orc is too much?" you state falsely that a character's ability scores cannot fall below 3 during character generation. Contrary to what you state, an orc could begin the game with a score of 1 in Wisdom or Charisma or both.
2) Multi-Classed rules on p. 60 of the phb state that a multiclass character takes a -20% penalty to XP for each class that is not within one level of his or her highest-level class (favored classes excepted). Yet your book on p. 26, has allegedly perfect characters suffer this penalty with multi-classed heavy infantry, who would gain a penalty for levels 10-11 if human or half-elf, or 10-12 if a dwarf. The penalty is also suffered for multi-classed light infantry on p. 27 for levels 13-14, and for multi-classed skirmisher on p. 28 for levels 10, 13, 15-20 (you seem to be under the false belief that if levels are kept "in a line" (i.e. 1st/2nd/3rd/4th/5th) there is no penalty, but the rules clearly state that there is a penalty in such cases, since only comparison with the highest level class that is not a favored class is considered, thus mandating a penalty).
3) In your equipment chapter you ignore simple weapons. This is a mistake. The Javelin is a simple weapon but is hands down the best thrown weapon in the game, because of its superior range increment (you give the title of best thrown range increment to the light hammer -- this is false). The javelin is also one of the throwable weapons allowed to monks. Given the Far Shot feat, an Archer or Skirmisher has a range increment of 60', which is quite respectable. If you think that all or even most battles will be fought within 20' you are mistaken. Given that you give the fighter heavy infantry feat list on p. 58 weapon focus and specialization in spear specifically for missle weapon capabilities, this is an error for a power-gamer's book. And let us not forget that there is a specific magic weapon called "javelins of lightning".
Other than that, I have mostly enjoyed the book. But I am afraid that I cannot call you true power gamers . . . yet.
With respect to the above problems with the optimal power attack table, are you going to release an fixed version of that table? Or a web enhancement with optimal scores for warriors with 1 iterative attack, 2 iterative attacks, 3 iterative attacks, or 4 iterative attacks?
1) On page 11 of the PHB, under racial ability adjustments, it says "If these changes put your score above 18 or below 3, that's ok, except in the case of Intelligence, which does not go below 3". Yet in your book on p. 10, in the sidebar "How much Orc is too much?" you state falsely that a character's ability scores cannot fall below 3 during character generation. Contrary to what you state, an orc could begin the game with a score of 1 in Wisdom or Charisma or both.
2) Multi-Classed rules on p. 60 of the phb state that a multiclass character takes a -20% penalty to XP for each class that is not within one level of his or her highest-level class (favored classes excepted). Yet your book on p. 26, has allegedly perfect characters suffer this penalty with multi-classed heavy infantry, who would gain a penalty for levels 10-11 if human or half-elf, or 10-12 if a dwarf. The penalty is also suffered for multi-classed light infantry on p. 27 for levels 13-14, and for multi-classed skirmisher on p. 28 for levels 10, 13, 15-20 (you seem to be under the false belief that if levels are kept "in a line" (i.e. 1st/2nd/3rd/4th/5th) there is no penalty, but the rules clearly state that there is a penalty in such cases, since only comparison with the highest level class that is not a favored class is considered, thus mandating a penalty).
3) In your equipment chapter you ignore simple weapons. This is a mistake. The Javelin is a simple weapon but is hands down the best thrown weapon in the game, because of its superior range increment (you give the title of best thrown range increment to the light hammer -- this is false). The javelin is also one of the throwable weapons allowed to monks. Given the Far Shot feat, an Archer or Skirmisher has a range increment of 60', which is quite respectable. If you think that all or even most battles will be fought within 20' you are mistaken. Given that you give the fighter heavy infantry feat list on p. 58 weapon focus and specialization in spear specifically for missle weapon capabilities, this is an error for a power-gamer's book. And let us not forget that there is a specific magic weapon called "javelins of lightning".
Other than that, I have mostly enjoyed the book. But I am afraid that I cannot call you true power gamers . . . yet.
With respect to the above problems with the optimal power attack table, are you going to release an fixed version of that table? Or a web enhancement with optimal scores for warriors with 1 iterative attack, 2 iterative attacks, 3 iterative attacks, or 4 iterative attacks?
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goodmangames
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catdragon
Power Attack Mistacks
Okay, since I am learning how to do things with a new programming language, i decided to try to do the numbers for the power attack table, just becasue i could.
Anyhow, i think the table for suggested Power Attacks is completely wrong, not only for the thing about the strength modifier mentioned above, but also in the general calculations.
Here is my analysis of BAB +20 against AC 16 for a 1d8 1-handed weapon:
PA Penalty % to hit Avg damage
0 3.15 14.175
1 3.05 16.775
2 2.9 18.85
3 2.75 20.625
4 2.6 22.1
5 2.45 23.275
6 2.3 24.15
7 2.1 24.15
8 1.9 23.75
9 1.7 22.95
10 1.55 22.475
11 1.4 21.7
12 1.25 20.625
13 1.1 19.25
14 0.95 17.575
15 0.85 16.575
16 0.75 15.375
17 0.65 13.975
18 0.55 12.375
19 0.45 10.575
20 0.4 9.8
According to these numbers, 6 or 7 is the optimal PA to do. However, in the book, it says 10. I can post the algorhytm, but that is probably beyond the scope of this list.
I would to talk about it, just drop me e-mail at catdragon@nc.rr.com and we can go from there.
Bobby
Cat.Dragon
Anyhow, i think the table for suggested Power Attacks is completely wrong, not only for the thing about the strength modifier mentioned above, but also in the general calculations.
Here is my analysis of BAB +20 against AC 16 for a 1d8 1-handed weapon:
PA Penalty % to hit Avg damage
0 3.15 14.175
1 3.05 16.775
2 2.9 18.85
3 2.75 20.625
4 2.6 22.1
5 2.45 23.275
6 2.3 24.15
7 2.1 24.15
8 1.9 23.75
9 1.7 22.95
10 1.55 22.475
11 1.4 21.7
12 1.25 20.625
13 1.1 19.25
14 0.95 17.575
15 0.85 16.575
16 0.75 15.375
17 0.65 13.975
18 0.55 12.375
19 0.45 10.575
20 0.4 9.8
According to these numbers, 6 or 7 is the optimal PA to do. However, in the book, it says 10. I can post the algorhytm, but that is probably beyond the scope of this list.
I would to talk about it, just drop me e-mail at catdragon@nc.rr.com and we can go from there.
Bobby
Cat.Dragon
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goodmangames
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Oh, so much grief from that one doggone table!
Right now I'm swamped prepping for Gen Con, but after it's over I'm planning to put together some errata, including more info on Power Attack. Let's talk algorithms then.
BTW, did you ever read Campaign magazine? The entire Power Gamer's Warrior Strategy Guide idea was inspired by a great article in Campaign #1 or #2 which was basically an analysis of the Power Attack feat. This was back under 3.0, but it's what got me thinking about the idea... and eventually got me into trouble with this table.
Right now I'm swamped prepping for Gen Con, but after it's over I'm planning to put together some errata, including more info on Power Attack. Let's talk algorithms then.
BTW, did you ever read Campaign magazine? The entire Power Gamer's Warrior Strategy Guide idea was inspired by a great article in Campaign #1 or #2 which was basically an analysis of the Power Attack feat. This was back under 3.0, but it's what got me thinking about the idea... and eventually got me into trouble with this table.
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catdragon
Power Attacking
Gee, wish i was going to GenCon. <sniff, sniff> Oh well, at least i have my brand new baby daugfhter to play with while everyone else is in Indianapolis. I think i got the better end of that trade. Perhaps i will go next year....
In any case, that table was a nightmare! I just finished coding the program to do it and i have to calculate the hit/miss chance all the way down to a -15 BAB (Power Attacking for 20 with a +20 BAB).
But its done. Let me kniow when you want the programatics!
Bobby
In any case, that table was a nightmare! I just finished coding the program to do it and i have to calculate the hit/miss chance all the way down to a -15 BAB (Power Attacking for 20 with a +20 BAB).
But its done. Let me kniow when you want the programatics!
Bobby
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goodmangames
- Cold-Hearted Immortal
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Re: hi
Based on the great feedback on this book so far, a wizard's startegy guide is definitely something I'm considering.scorpionx1 wrote:Great book, can't wait for the errata/web enchancements...
There is a wizard book in the works?!?!? Awesome! Does this apply to all arcane spellcasters? If so, what about divine spellcasters? i.e. cleric power gaming!!!
Thanx
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goodmangames
- Cold-Hearted Immortal
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- Location: San Jose, CA
Re: Power Attacking
Yes, I have to agree that you got the better end of that trade.catdragon wrote:Gee, wish i was going to GenCon. <sniff, sniff> Oh well, at least i have my brand new baby daugfhter to play with while everyone else is in Indianapolis. I think i got the better end of that trade.
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dekrass
Keen weapons
In the equipment chapter you state several times that keen is only for slashing weapons, but in both the keen edge spell and keen quality descriptions it says piercing or slashing.
Errata page? and monk information
Has the errata been put out yet? I am curious if the changes has any result on the conclusions of what is the best choices for different circumstances.
If the errata information is not done yet, then here are some things to think about for powergaming the monk:
Monk players should carefully look over the eligible weapons and do it in the form of the table as given in the Powergamers book, and include any special quality for each weapon, if any. It is the special qualities that make the weapon useful, not the raw damage. In particular, as noted by earlier, the javelin is a very good ranged weapon that can hit things well within the sight distance of sunrods and good enough for most encounters that stay out of reach. The other noteables for those who have the right feats are those that allow you to flurry and use a special attack, in particular: Kama for tripping, and Sai for disarming. Always have your hands with weapons or whatever ready, since you can still use "unarmed attacks" with your feet, knees, etc. from the description given in the Player's book. This observation that special qualities is what you use weapons for applies to any enchanted weapons as well, as it will be rare for the true average damage to equal that of the unarmed attacks.
One thing about monks is that they are far more reliant of working as part of a team than most classes. For those who want to get the most out of the long term use of a monk needs to have a druid and a wizard in the party. The druid's Magic Fang spell and the Greater version boosts the monk's unarmed attack. Starting at the 9th level and above there are spell combos that makes monk's incredibly useful in most situations. They are as follows:
Resistance + Permanency
General saving throw booster.
Magic Fang (and later the Greater version) + Permanency
This allows the monk's unarmed attacks to not fall too far behind the fighter's access to virtually all the enchanted weapons enountered. Unfortunately this requires a druid to do properly. If you do not have a druid, then be sure to have really good relations with an NPC druid or have a cleric be willing to use a Miracle or some other way to get the Magic Fang, Greater spell (such as a Limited Wish, but that sucks up some extra XP).
Symbol of ... + Permanency
Here is where the monk can wreck havoc. Put the Symbol on a metal or other hard material small plate with holes that can be attached to a leather head band that has room for several such plates can be attached. Have Symbol be set so that all members of the party is not affected. Also set the Symbol to either go off on sight or by touch (Note some might say that you can't set off your own Symbol by touching it with say a Kama in your hand so you need to check with the interpretation of the rules on this). Now you have a headband that essentially lets you be a moving area effect series of spells. With the exception of the Symbol of Persuasion, they are all pretty much stackable in effects. They can also hit the Fortitude and the Will saves, which most opponents have a weakness in one or the other. As an even further bonus, causing an opponent to exit and then re-enter the area of the effect causes the opponent to have to make another saving throw. A monk can therefore use his mobility to rapidly pass by opponents in multiple passes until they are softened up enough to fight in close combat. Keep in mind that these plates have a "rest" time after each use.
If the errata information is not done yet, then here are some things to think about for powergaming the monk:
Monk players should carefully look over the eligible weapons and do it in the form of the table as given in the Powergamers book, and include any special quality for each weapon, if any. It is the special qualities that make the weapon useful, not the raw damage. In particular, as noted by earlier, the javelin is a very good ranged weapon that can hit things well within the sight distance of sunrods and good enough for most encounters that stay out of reach. The other noteables for those who have the right feats are those that allow you to flurry and use a special attack, in particular: Kama for tripping, and Sai for disarming. Always have your hands with weapons or whatever ready, since you can still use "unarmed attacks" with your feet, knees, etc. from the description given in the Player's book. This observation that special qualities is what you use weapons for applies to any enchanted weapons as well, as it will be rare for the true average damage to equal that of the unarmed attacks.
One thing about monks is that they are far more reliant of working as part of a team than most classes. For those who want to get the most out of the long term use of a monk needs to have a druid and a wizard in the party. The druid's Magic Fang spell and the Greater version boosts the monk's unarmed attack. Starting at the 9th level and above there are spell combos that makes monk's incredibly useful in most situations. They are as follows:
Resistance + Permanency
General saving throw booster.
Magic Fang (and later the Greater version) + Permanency
This allows the monk's unarmed attacks to not fall too far behind the fighter's access to virtually all the enchanted weapons enountered. Unfortunately this requires a druid to do properly. If you do not have a druid, then be sure to have really good relations with an NPC druid or have a cleric be willing to use a Miracle or some other way to get the Magic Fang, Greater spell (such as a Limited Wish, but that sucks up some extra XP).
Symbol of ... + Permanency
Here is where the monk can wreck havoc. Put the Symbol on a metal or other hard material small plate with holes that can be attached to a leather head band that has room for several such plates can be attached. Have Symbol be set so that all members of the party is not affected. Also set the Symbol to either go off on sight or by touch (Note some might say that you can't set off your own Symbol by touching it with say a Kama in your hand so you need to check with the interpretation of the rules on this). Now you have a headband that essentially lets you be a moving area effect series of spells. With the exception of the Symbol of Persuasion, they are all pretty much stackable in effects. They can also hit the Fortitude and the Will saves, which most opponents have a weakness in one or the other. As an even further bonus, causing an opponent to exit and then re-enter the area of the effect causes the opponent to have to make another saving throw. A monk can therefore use his mobility to rapidly pass by opponents in multiple passes until they are softened up enough to fight in close combat. Keep in mind that these plates have a "rest" time after each use.
Last edited by Bruce on Wed Aug 10, 2005 8:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
Symbol of ... Trick
Here is the part of the Symbol of Death description that is relevant to making your own party be immune to its effects:
"You also can attune any number of creatures to the symbol of death, but doing this can extend the casting time. Attuning one or two creatures takes negligible time, and attuning a small group (as many as ten creatures) extends the casting time to 1 hour. Attuning a large group (as many as twenty-five creatures) takes 24 hours. Attuning larger groups takes proportionately longer. Any creature attuned to a symbol of death cannot trigger it and is immune to its effects, even if within its radius when triggered. You are automatically considered attuned to your own symbols of death, and thus always ignore the effects and cannot inadvertently trigger them."
The one bad part is that you can't retractively "attune" it so you would have to make new ones if you add new party members. The monk would also have to put on some sort of cap or larger band over the other head band to keep the Symbols from going off at inappropriate times.
The one neat thing with the attunement power is that it prevents things like dopplegangers from replacing members of your group when you do not have a detection spell or item handy.
"You also can attune any number of creatures to the symbol of death, but doing this can extend the casting time. Attuning one or two creatures takes negligible time, and attuning a small group (as many as ten creatures) extends the casting time to 1 hour. Attuning a large group (as many as twenty-five creatures) takes 24 hours. Attuning larger groups takes proportionately longer. Any creature attuned to a symbol of death cannot trigger it and is immune to its effects, even if within its radius when triggered. You are automatically considered attuned to your own symbols of death, and thus always ignore the effects and cannot inadvertently trigger them."
The one bad part is that you can't retractively "attune" it so you would have to make new ones if you add new party members. The monk would also have to put on some sort of cap or larger band over the other head band to keep the Symbols from going off at inappropriate times.
The one neat thing with the attunement power is that it prevents things like dopplegangers from replacing members of your group when you do not have a detection spell or item handy.
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BronzeDragon
- Gongfarmer
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glyn_dewey
- Ill-Fated Peasant
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Power Attack Table
OK, Jospeh asked me to see if I could put a revised Power Attack table together for you all, but there are some difficulties with the approach and I was wondering what those of you want the table have in mind. Here are some of the difficulties I see:
I might be up for it but my own thought is that a table for optimal
Power Attack is a lot more complex than people realize.
1. There's the basic question of what are you optimizing for. The usual
answer is average damage per hit, but if you include feats like Cleave and
Great Cleave, a suboptimal result for average damage per hit may
actually result in the most dead bugbears per round--because every time
you kill a bugbear you get another attack. If a slightly higher average per hit damage increases your chances of one-shotting the bugbear, then it's worth reducing your average damage per attack to decrease the number of attacks it takes to kill the bugbear. Similarly, if the higher average damage per hit gained by optimal power attack is not enough to one-shot the bugbear but the no-Power Attack damage is enough to kill the bugbear in two shots every time, Power Attack doesn't buy you anything because all the extra damage is going to waste.
2. There is the question of whether you get to make a single attack or
a full attack. Obviously, against AC 20, a fighter with an attack bonus
of +20 will want to power attack for at least one point--if he's making
a single attack. However, if the fighter is attacking at
+20/+15/+10/+5, the calculation isn't quite as simple. More to the point, the calculation is definitely not the same.
3. There is also the question of haste attacks. From boots of speed to
the haste spell to weapons of speed, mid-high level fighters will
generally attack at +X/+X/+(X-5)/+(X-10). Those calculations are very
different from +X/+(X-5)/+(X-10).
4. There is also the question of one or two handed attacks. Characters
wielding weapons in two hands are advised to power attack more than
characters wielding weapons in one hand.
5. There is finally the question of how much damage you're dealing in
the first place. If, for instance, you deal an average of 22 points of
damage per swing, a 5% reduction in your chance to hit yields a 1.1
point reduction in average damage (excluding criticals). Since one
handed power attack increases average damage by only 1 point, it's
always a bad idea to Power Attack with a one-handed weapon when the
penalty affects your chance to hit. (With two handed weapons, the
average damage per hit has to be greater than 40 for that to be true).
Including crits in that calculation can make a significant difference
for weapons like falchions, etc.
Consequently, I'm not sure it's possible to make an accurate optimal
Power Attack table that is not character specific, nor am I sure how
useful it would be. The simplest way to do it would be to do a table
for single attacks only with an assumed no-power-attack average damage
per hit. I'm just not sure how much use that would be since any given character is likely to be significantly different from my assumed character. What do you all think?
I might be up for it but my own thought is that a table for optimal
Power Attack is a lot more complex than people realize.
1. There's the basic question of what are you optimizing for. The usual
answer is average damage per hit, but if you include feats like Cleave and
Great Cleave, a suboptimal result for average damage per hit may
actually result in the most dead bugbears per round--because every time
you kill a bugbear you get another attack. If a slightly higher average per hit damage increases your chances of one-shotting the bugbear, then it's worth reducing your average damage per attack to decrease the number of attacks it takes to kill the bugbear. Similarly, if the higher average damage per hit gained by optimal power attack is not enough to one-shot the bugbear but the no-Power Attack damage is enough to kill the bugbear in two shots every time, Power Attack doesn't buy you anything because all the extra damage is going to waste.
2. There is the question of whether you get to make a single attack or
a full attack. Obviously, against AC 20, a fighter with an attack bonus
of +20 will want to power attack for at least one point--if he's making
a single attack. However, if the fighter is attacking at
+20/+15/+10/+5, the calculation isn't quite as simple. More to the point, the calculation is definitely not the same.
3. There is also the question of haste attacks. From boots of speed to
the haste spell to weapons of speed, mid-high level fighters will
generally attack at +X/+X/+(X-5)/+(X-10). Those calculations are very
different from +X/+(X-5)/+(X-10).
4. There is also the question of one or two handed attacks. Characters
wielding weapons in two hands are advised to power attack more than
characters wielding weapons in one hand.
5. There is finally the question of how much damage you're dealing in
the first place. If, for instance, you deal an average of 22 points of
damage per swing, a 5% reduction in your chance to hit yields a 1.1
point reduction in average damage (excluding criticals). Since one
handed power attack increases average damage by only 1 point, it's
always a bad idea to Power Attack with a one-handed weapon when the
penalty affects your chance to hit. (With two handed weapons, the
average damage per hit has to be greater than 40 for that to be true).
Including crits in that calculation can make a significant difference
for weapons like falchions, etc.
Consequently, I'm not sure it's possible to make an accurate optimal
Power Attack table that is not character specific, nor am I sure how
useful it would be. The simplest way to do it would be to do a table
for single attacks only with an assumed no-power-attack average damage
per hit. I'm just not sure how much use that would be since any given character is likely to be significantly different from my assumed character. What do you all think?
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eldonunderbough
- Gongfarmer
- Posts: 1
- Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:49 pm
Re: Warrior´s Strategy Guide
Not exactly an errata worthy issue but I'd greatly appreciate a suggested feat tree for the multiclassed archetypes, in particular the skirmisher. I tried creating one at 10th using the either the fighter or ranger examples. The ranger comes close, the same number of feats, however using the elite stat array it isn't possible to complete the two-weapon fighting tree which seems like an appropriate tree for the skirmisher.
edit:
Playing around a little to still get the throwing axe fun of the ranger based skirmisher, I came up with this feat progression. Bearing in mind that it is not in a skirmisher to be the best in any one area, he only goes 1 step into two-weapon fighting to gain that 1 extra iterative attack at only a -2 penalty. This progression assumes a Human for the extra feat and the multiclass example presented in table 3-11 on page 28.
1: Dodge, Mobility (bonus)
3: Quick Draw
6: Two-Weapon Fighting
9: Point Blank Shot
10: Precise Shot (bonus)
11: Far Shot (bonus)
12: Power Attack
13: Track (Ranger)
14: Combat style: rapid shot
15: Cleave
17: Endurance (Ranger)
18: Improved Critical (Axe, Throwing)
edit:
Playing around a little to still get the throwing axe fun of the ranger based skirmisher, I came up with this feat progression. Bearing in mind that it is not in a skirmisher to be the best in any one area, he only goes 1 step into two-weapon fighting to gain that 1 extra iterative attack at only a -2 penalty. This progression assumes a Human for the extra feat and the multiclass example presented in table 3-11 on page 28.
1: Dodge, Mobility (bonus)
3: Quick Draw
6: Two-Weapon Fighting
9: Point Blank Shot
10: Precise Shot (bonus)
11: Far Shot (bonus)
12: Power Attack
13: Track (Ranger)
14: Combat style: rapid shot
15: Cleave
17: Endurance (Ranger)
18: Improved Critical (Axe, Throwing)