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 Post subject: Atributes for non-human races (?)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:09 pm 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer

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As far as I can tell, there are no attribute adjustments for non human races. Perhaps the thought here is that any differences in capability between races is encapsulated in their racial class abilities? If so, there would seem to be some odd inconsistencies. It is just as likely for a hobbit to have a strength of 18 as for a human, dwarf or elf. 2-4' tall chaps should be substantially weaker than average adult humans. Don't even try to argue with me on this one. What are we supposed to make of this? It actually isn't that easy to tweek with house rules because the problem occurs during 0 level character generation. Maybe have racial mods that kick in if you roll a non-human race background? My preference would be to do this as adjustments in attribute modifier rather than the attribute itself. I.e., a ST 18 hobbit is fine, but it doesn't mean the same thing as a ST 18 human. Maybe -2 adjustment to ST modifier, and some tweek up or down in other attribute modifiers as well to reflect typical assumed racial traits. Say, dwarves have good stamina and sucky personality, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Atributes for non-human races (?)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:23 pm 
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By the rules, no, there are no adjustments. It comes down to purely houserule territory and whether or not it matters to the individual group or not.

Colin


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 Post subject: Re: Atributes for non-human races (?)
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 1:07 am 
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Funny thing, I heard a guy (a 4e fan) once complain about how restrictive racial ability modifiers are, because they make it impossible for various races to reach the heights other races can - eg. a human fighter can never be as strong as a half-orc. As for me, it's okay either way.

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 Post subject: Re: Atributes for non-human races (?)
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 4:45 am 
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If I was to houserule along your lines, Lars (but I'm not, because my Crawl! article neatly sidesteps nearly every case of this issue and the issue of Strength 3 blacksmiths), I'd use something like this:

1) Roll 3d6 for abilities.
2) Roll Occupation.
2a) If Occupation indicates a dwarf, elf, or halfling, apply the following modifiers (the 3/18 limits still apply):
Dwarf: +2 Stamina, -2 Personality (dwarves are tough but gruff)
Elf: +1 Agility, +1 Intelligence, -1 Strength, -1 Stamina (elves are graceful and insightful, but their slender frames are slightly weaker and more fragile than humans)
Halfling: +1 Agility, +1 Personality, -2 Strength (halflings are small and weak, but nimble and gregarious)

Colin


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 Post subject: Re: Atributes for non-human races (?)
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:59 am 
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I like the numbers you suggest, but will apply them to attribute modifiers rather than attributes. They are more meaningful that way (I like differences among characters to be a bit more exagerated than core D&D generally supports).


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 Post subject: Re: Atributes for non-human races (?)
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 1:08 pm 
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I think apply a +2 to a modifier is too much. Maybe dial everything back to +1/-1?

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 Post subject: Re: Atributes for non-human races (?)
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2012 2:33 pm 
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Boo stereotypes. My favourite characters are dim-witted Elves or gregarious Dwarfs. Just my two cents!


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 Post subject: Re: Atributes for non-human races (?)
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:17 pm 
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I just want to avoid the impossible strength 18 hobbit. A 3' tall person weighing 60-80 pounds could never, under any circumstances, be as strong as the biggest, brawniest man you know.


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 Post subject: Re: Atributes for non-human races (?)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:08 am 
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Quote:
I just want to avoid the impossible strength 18 hobbit. A 3' tall person weighing 60-80 pounds could never, under any circumstances, be as strong as the biggest, brawniest man you know.



To me,your imagination has strange limitations :shock: . Of all the vast reality bending concepts to not be able to stretch credibility to fit,That 1 foot height difference between a Dwarf and a Halfling is too huge for you? :lol:


So far out of over 60 pc's not one of them has had a 18 strength in our DCC games so im not too worried about it. To each his own though.


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 Post subject: Re: Atributes for non-human races (?)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 3:36 am 
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Halflings have their own titans too. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Atributes for non-human races (?)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:37 am 
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larsdangly wrote:
I just want to avoid the impossible strength 18 hobbit. A 3' tall person weighing 60-80 pounds could never, under any circumstances, be as strong as the biggest, brawniest man you know.


I would point out that it's not obligatory to treat the other races as size- or shape-distorted humans. Our closest relative is the chimpanzee, slightly smaller but significantly stronger.


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 Post subject: Re: Atributes for non-human races (?)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:01 am 
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thogard wrote:
larsdangly wrote:
I just want to avoid the impossible strength 18 hobbit. A 3' tall person weighing 60-80 pounds could never, under any circumstances, be as strong as the biggest, brawniest man you know.


I would point out that it's not obligatory to treat the other races as size- or shape-distorted humans. Our closest relative is the chimpanzee, slightly smaller but significantly stronger.


Yep, plus it can be surprising just how powerful smaller folk can become. Andrzej Stanaszek, a medical dwarf significantly under 4' tall, weighs only 50kg (110 lb.), for example, but powerlifted 300 kg (661 lb.)! Even if a halfling adhered strictly to human limits (and as noted, there's not necessarily any reason for them to) that'd still enable a high strength 50 lb. halfling to powerlift 300 lbs. Give them a slightly highly power-to-weight ratio and that can change dramatically.

Colin


Last edited by Colin on Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:06 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Atributes for non-human races (?)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:02 am 
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thogard wrote:
larsdangly wrote:
I just want to avoid the impossible strength 18 hobbit. A 3' tall person weighing 60-80 pounds could never, under any circumstances, be as strong as the biggest, brawniest man you know.


I would point out that it's not obligatory to treat the other races as size- or shape-distorted humans. Our closest relative is the chimpanzee, slightly smaller but significantly stronger.

Found and article about that: http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/science/2009/02/how_strong_is_a_chimpanzee.html

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 Post subject: Re: Atributes for non-human races (?)
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 9:42 am 
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BTW, that makes Andrzej Stanaszek Strength 19 in AD&D1e/2e terms. For a guy weighing 110 lb. and not much taller than 3'. If that doesn't make someone question some of their assumptions, nothing will.

Colin


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 Post subject: Re: Atributes for non-human races (?)
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:53 pm 
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Don't get too carried away with the examples of strong small people. First, humans and hobbits aren't chimpanzees, so the fact that a 3' tall living creature can be stronger than an average adult man is not a good indication of Frodo's bench press.

Second, a 110 lbp strong man might have impressive lift totals, but compare him with the strongest 6' tall man, not your average joe. Andrzej Stanaszek's top bench press is greater than most people posting here could likely do, but less than you would see someone do on on any given day at a well attended weight lifting gym, and, more importantly, about half the world record for anyone of any size. When compared with his peer group (elite power lifters) he is about as strong as you would guess for his size

Straight up, it makes no sense whatsoever for a hobbit to have a chance of maximum strength equal to that for a human.


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 Post subject: Re: Atributes for non-human races (?)
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:22 pm 
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larsdangly wrote:
Straight up, it makes no sense whatsoever for a hobbit to have a chance of maximum strength equal to that for a human.
I am probably being sarcastic at a very annoying time to be sarcastic... but...

[sarcasm]okay, so hobbits aren't strong like chimps... cool... glad we sorted that out. What about halflings, I hear they are somehow just as capable as humans despite their smaller stature... how do you feel about halflings?[/sarcasm]

Seriously though, I can get behind a feeling that there is no way that Frodo could ever manage the strength that Gimli could, and both would likely have trouble matching Aragorn if he pushed himself to the maximum power-potential of his body... what I can't get behind is locking down every fantasy game's interpretation of Dwarf, Elf, and Hobbi*cough* Halfling to the interpretations found strictly in Tolkien's works.

Why can't dwarves match the norse dvergr? Why can't elves match the alfar and svartalfar? Why can't these little halflings match up more to a redcap than to [gollum]filthy hobbitses[/gollum]?

There is no reason that a fantastical creature (called halfling) must be relegated to being inherently less physically powerful because of his decreased size. I actually feel that there are more reason for such a thing to be intentionally avoided - especially in the case where it seems obvious by racial powers given that Halflings are intended to have surprising strength.

Note the abilities to fight with two-weapons of the same size and no limitation existent in the rules for those two weapons to be the exact same weapons sized for your medium companions - and even without getting your hands on a longsword at 0-level, a Halfling as written is capable of wielding A PAIR OF SPEARS (the exact spear a medium character would wield)... and doing so more adeptly than most could wield one of said spears and an easier to manage off-hand weapon.

In one of my campaigns right now there is a Halfling wielding a pair of longswords... a roughly 3' tall man wielding swords both roughly 3' in length - and that's fine with me because this isn't LoTR, and he's not a puny hobbit - he's a Halfling, and he means business.


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 Post subject: Re: Atributes for non-human races (?)
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 2:49 pm 
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I'm with the RAW on this one, both as in supporting the possibility of halflings that can bend bars and lift gates w/ the best of them, OR, to quote page 314:

Quote:
Fear no rule. I know you will homebrew this game: I
trust it will remain recognizable but different from as I
conceived it. Such is as it should be.


...saying that as the Judge it's perfectly acceptable to change or ignore that.


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 Post subject: Re: Atributes for non-human races (?)
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:46 pm 
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TheNobleDrake wrote:
Seriously though, I can get behind a feeling that there is no way that Frodo could ever manage the strength that Gimli could, and both would likely have trouble matching Aragorn if he pushed himself to the maximum power-potential of his body... what I can't get behind is locking down every fantasy game's interpretation of Dwarf, Elf, and Hobbi*cough* Halfling to the interpretations found strictly in Tolkien's works.

Also, let's not forget that not every hobbit/halfling is Frodo. That the Fellowship didn't have any strong hobbits doesn't means there weren't any on Middle Earth. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Atributes for non-human races (?)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:59 am 
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On the other hand.


If you want to set limits and bonus/penalties for Deni-humans for your home games go right ahead.

Use the D&D ones,make up your own or whatever ya want.


I myself hate the every round is a trick shot version of Mighty Deeds so set limits on it for my home game. This entire game is MADE for you to fiddle with as you like.

It's your game! If you want to change something just do it. Getting advice is ok here as well. Just don't try to convince everyone else to change how its done in there games unless you want a long and drawn out bloody fight! :lol:

So in other words to try and help your question.....


If I wanted to add race mods in I would go with AD&D mods. I would pretty much just go by the list found in the players handbooks. It wouldn't change much in the game and I don't think it would effect all that much.


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 Post subject: Re: Atributes for non-human races (?)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:12 am 
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Ravenheart87 wrote:
TheNobleDrake wrote:
Seriously though, I can get behind a feeling that there is no way that Frodo could ever manage the strength that Gimli could, and both would likely have trouble matching Aragorn if he pushed himself to the maximum power-potential of his body... what I can't get behind is locking down every fantasy game's interpretation of Dwarf, Elf, and Hobbi*cough* Halfling to the interpretations found strictly in Tolkien's works.

Also, let's not forget that not every hobbit/halfling is Frodo. That the Fellowship didn't have any strong hobbits doesn't means there weren't any on Middle Earth. :)


Didn't the game of golf get invented when a hobbit knocked a goblin's head off?

"He charged the ranks of the goblins of Mount Gram in the Battle of The Green Fields, and knocked their king Golfimbul's head clean off with a wooden club. It sailed a hundred yards through the air and went down a rabbit hole, and in this way the battle was won, and the game of Golf invented at the same moment."

I am guessing that some halflings have higher Strength scores than others.

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 Post subject: Re: Atributes for non-human races (?)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:33 am 
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larsdangly wrote:
First, humans and hobbits aren't chimpanzees...


Similarly, halflings are not humans.


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 Post subject: Re: Atributes for non-human races (?)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:56 am 
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This is madness. MADNESS! Next you'll tell me that springer spaniels are exactly as strong as rotweilers.

Do what you want with your world, but in mine the physical strength of beings that are physiologically similar is in some way related to their size.


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 Post subject: Re: Atributes for non-human races (?)
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 10:27 pm 
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larsdangly wrote:
This is madness. MADNESS!
Careful saying things like that... make sure there is no giant pit behind you beforehand at least.

larsdangly wrote:
Next you'll tell me that springer spaniels are exactly as strong as rotweilers.
Of course I won't. Both of those are things that exist in the real world first and would exist in an RPG to represent their real world selves.

larsdangly wrote:
Do what you want with your world
Of course, we all will, you included.

larsdangly wrote:
in mine the physical strength of beings that are physiologically similar is in some way related to their size.
I added some bold to emphasis my question in this whole matter - why are they physiologically similar? There is no necessity for such a thing to be true, the description of their physiology could differ so as to explain that halflings are able to be as strong as humans despite their similar size.

You seem to insist that halflings be used to represent some real world counterpart - but no such counterpart exists, they are entirely creatures of fantasy and are thereby entitled to do and be whatever we wish to make of them.

Halflings aren't humans with medical conditions that limit their size - humans with medical conditions that limit their size are - so why force the two to be the same?

Can you not handle skeletons either? Physiologically they couldn't possibly even move, let alone swing a sword with the ferocious force of a warrior... but yet they seem to do it all the time, tirelessly even. It's because they are fictional and fantastical, two qualities I will repeatedly remind anyone that they share in common with Halflings.


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 Post subject: Re: Atributes for non-human races (?)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:03 am 
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TheNobleDrake wrote:
larsdangly wrote:
This is madness. MADNESS!
Careful saying things like that... make sure there is no giant pit behind you beforehand at least.

larsdangly wrote:
Next you'll tell me that springer spaniels are exactly as strong as rotweilers.
Of course I won't. Both of those are things that exist in the real world first and would exist in an RPG to represent their real world selves.

larsdangly wrote:
Do what you want with your world
Of course, we all will, you included.

larsdangly wrote:
in mine the physical strength of beings that are physiologically similar is in some way related to their size.
I added some bold to emphasis my question in this whole matter - why are they physiologically similar? There is no necessity for such a thing to be true, the description of their physiology could differ so as to explain that halflings are able to be as strong as humans despite their similar size.

You seem to insist that halflings be used to represent some real world counterpart - but no such counterpart exists, they are entirely creatures of fantasy and are thereby entitled to do and be whatever we wish to make of them.

Halflings aren't humans with medical conditions that limit their size - humans with medical conditions that limit their size are - so why force the two to be the same?

Can you not handle skeletons either? Physiologically they couldn't possibly even move, let alone swing a sword with the ferocious force of a warrior... but yet they seem to do it all the time, tirelessly even. It's because they are fictional and fantastical, two qualities I will repeatedly remind anyone that they share in common with Halflings.


I've never seen a version of D&D (or any other game) in which 'halflings' are anything other than re-branded hobbits. Hobbits are small, plucky, portly people (for all practical purposes). It would be obtuse to suggest hobbits have the steel-wire strength of the monster from Alien. Of course, anyone can make a race like that any time they want. But they aren't hobbits (er, 'halflings').


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 Post subject: Re: Atributes for non-human races (?)
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:09 am 
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larsdangly wrote:
I've never seen a version of D&D (or any other game) in which 'halflings' are anything other than re-branded hobbits. Hobbits are small, plucky, portly people (for all practical purposes).

Well, since 3rd edition they don't seem to look like hobbits at all in D&D...

Image

Luckily, DCC isn't D&D, the halflings are based on hobbits as they should be.

larsdangly wrote:
It would be obtuse to suggest hobbits have the steel-wire strength of the monster from Alien.

It would be obtuse to suggest that an Alien has only a strength of 18. It would be obtuse to compare monsters, who aren't bound by the rules like the players, to the players. :)

larsdangly wrote:
Of course, anyone can make a race like that any time they want. But they aren't hobbits (er, 'halflings').

Well, if there are short people around us with above the average strength, then it makes sense to have strong halflings too. It still won't happen often, rolling an 18 for Strength is not that easy. And while demi-humans does have their own stereotypes, saying that my hobbits aren't hobbits because they aren't exactly like Frodo or Sam (who are quite the average Joes among hobbits) or like how you imagined them seems to be nonsense.

Halflings are short, sturdy, sneaky, peaceful guys in my campaing - if I tell one of my players they're hobbits, he will clearly recognise them. And if he rolls up a hobbit with 18 strength, he won't say that "this isn't a hobbit anymore", but "cool, I have a strong hobbit, maybe he was the local bully". If you feel this is wrong, then feel free to change them in your game, but don't tell me I'm a fool because I can imagine having a strong hobbit. :)

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