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 Post subject: Can Clerics only know 4 spells or can pick 4 every morning?
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 2:06 pm 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer

Joined: Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:17 pm
Posts: 35
I may be tainted beyond redemption from earlier versions but I almost didn't catch this. Do clerics pick 4 spells from table 5-9 ( page 128) to memorize every morning or do they pick 4 spells and only know those spells?

Being that spells like Detect Evil and Protection from Evil are based on the definiton of Evil from the cleric's perspective, I think most of the spells can work for any diety. Anyways, are clerical casters as restricted as arcane casters? Do they add spells similarly to Wizards then?

thanks,

Alex

ps- can't wait to get a game going. . .


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 Post subject: Re: Can Clerics only know 4 spells or can pick 4 every morni
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 2:23 pm 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer

Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:30 am
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Location: NC, USA
I'm planning on being literal and saying that it's the number of spells they know.

My reasoning:
-The chart says "spells known"
-Much of a cleric's power comes from the other ways they can manifest divine power, so they don't need as much versatility in spell selection
-The rules talk about a time of day to remove disapproval points, but not to recover spells

I'm sure there are equally valid points for the other way, too.

-Berc

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 Post subject: Re: Can Clerics only know 4 spells or can pick 4 every morni
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 3:59 pm 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:36 am
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The best thing to do, in my opinion: Remember the following - this is the very first version of DCC, there are no prior versions, no older editions... just a brand new game that has some occasional similarities to a completely different game of the same genre.


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 Post subject: Re: Can Clerics only know 4 spells or can pick 4 every morni
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 4:57 pm 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer

Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 6:06 am
Posts: 23
My reading is that they pick 'em and know 'em - except that there can be limits to what they can pick based on their deity, but that is up for you to determine. They do not need to find sources of magical knowledge as their deity grants their spells directly.


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 Post subject: Re: Can Clerics only know 4 spells or can pick 4 every morni
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 9:42 pm 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer

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giant wrote:
My reading is that they pick 'em and know 'em - except that there can be limits to what they can pick based on their deity, but that is up for you to determine. They do not need to find sources of magical knowledge as their deity grants their spells directly.



just once or every day?


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 Post subject: Re: Can Clerics only know 4 spells or can pick 4 every morni
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 9:44 pm 
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Hard-Bitten Adventurer

Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:46 am
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Just once!

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 Post subject: Re: Can Clerics only know 4 spells or can pick 4 every morni
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2012 10:55 pm 
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Hard-Bitten Adventurer

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 8:18 pm
Posts: 135
I'm of another opinion. I say Clerics can get new different spells, but they have to beseech their Master and may not always get what they ask for. DM can roll for it or it may depend on the cleric's current relationship... and I'm also leaning towards "Cleric" as a more limited arch-type, but that's another story.

Also, I totally consider this a game standing upon the shoulders of D&D. Part of the point is for it to be compatible after all. As Goodman often says, whatever your DM says at your table is official enough for DCC!

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 Post subject: Re: Can Clerics only know 4 spells or can pick 4 every morni
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 2:05 am 
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Mighty-Thewed Reaver

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caveman wrote:
...
Also, I totally consider this a game standing upon the shoulders of D&D. Part of the point is for it to be compatible after all. As Goodman often says, whatever your DM says at your table is official enough for DCC!


+d30
Blustar wrote:

just once or every day?


Whatever you and your players agree is best! :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Can Clerics only know 4 spells or can pick 4 every morni
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 4:15 am 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:36 am
Posts: 525
caveman wrote:
Also, I totally consider this a game standing upon the shoulders of D&D. Part of the point is for it to be compatible after all.


How is it really compatible though?

Spells? Nope, need to be re-written to fit the result-based tier system.
Ability scores? Almost, they mean different things at the same value sometimes.
Skills? Nope, no skill system actually matches up.
Classes? Nope, good inspiration but all the parts (even the ones with the same names) have to be changed to fit.
Monsters? Nope, the mechanics have to be tweaked no matter the edition even though the ideas transfer.
Magic Items? Almost, some work just fine (mostly the miscellaneous/wondrous types) and others defeat the purpose (+1 swords, for example)

Everything from any edition of D&D can have the flavor and idea transferred over, but the same is true of transferring the same materials to Savage Worlds, Shadowrun, or the World of Darkness - so that doesn't count as compatibility.

The mechanics though, have to be changed... and that, to me at least, means that they aren't compatible.

You wouldn't say an inch-and-a-quarter diameter dowel rod was compatible with an inch diameter hole because you can whittle it down with a knife, would you? That is basically how compatible DCC is with D&D.


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 Post subject: Re: Can Clerics only know 4 spells or can pick 4 every morni
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 4:41 am 
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Joined: Sat May 12, 2012 6:06 am
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Blustar wrote:
giant wrote:
My reading is that they pick 'em and know 'em - except that there can be limits to what they can pick based on their deity, but that is up for you to determine. They do not need to find sources of magical knowledge as their deity grants their spells directly.



just once or every day?


An option could be picking from scratch at each level.


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 Post subject: Re: Can Clerics only know 4 spells or can pick 4 every morni
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:25 pm 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer

Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:05 pm
Posts: 10
I just posted this in another area with a similar discussion:

On page 110 the book talks about regaining spells for "divine magic after resting and praying to the cleric’s god." For me, I allow the cleric to choose 4 spells for the day at this time. The cleric can then pray for a different set of spells after the next rest and pray period or keep the same ones, the clerics choice.

One question I have is that "A wizard knows a number of spells as shown on table 1-12, modified by his Intelligence score." Do clerics get a number of spells modified by personality?


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 Post subject: Re: Can Clerics only know 4 spells or can pick 4 every morni
PostPosted: Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:51 pm 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

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Cleric spells known are not modified for personality - Clerics get way more spells than Wizards do overall, so it "balances" out.


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 Post subject: Re: Can Clerics only know 4 spells or can pick 4 every morni
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:07 am 
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FWIW, I interpret the RAW as a lvl 1 cleric knowing 4 spells and that's it. There is no choosing different spells another day. Unlike Wizards, Clerics generally don't lose spells when they fail to cast them; instead they must cope with the disfavor of their deities. There is a chance that disfavor will result in spell loss, then the "regain spells the next day" may come into play. In this case the spells that were lost are regained, and the deity is appeased...for the time being.


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 Post subject: Re: Can Clerics only know 4 spells or can pick 4 every morni
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 1:28 am 
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Chaos-Summoning Sorcerer
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Pesky wrote:
FWIW, I interpret the RAW as a lvl 1 cleric knowing 4 spells and that's it. There is no choosing different spells another day. Unlike Wizards, Clerics generally don't lose spells when they fail to cast them; instead they must cope with the disfavor of their deities. There is a chance that disfavor will result in spell loss, then the "regain spells the next day" may come into play. In this case the spells that were lost are regained, and the deity is appeased...for the time being.

Same here. I even choose the spells for the clerics based on their gods.

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 Post subject: Re: Can Clerics only know 4 spells or can pick 4 every morni
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:20 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:53 am
Posts: 379
TheNobleDrake wrote:
caveman wrote:
Also, I totally consider this a game standing upon the shoulders of D&D. Part of the point is for it to be compatible after all.


How is it really compatible though?

Spells? Nope, need to be re-written to fit the result-based tier system.
Ability scores? Almost, they mean different things at the same value sometimes.
Skills? Nope, no skill system actually matches up.
Classes? Nope, good inspiration but all the parts (even the ones with the same names) have to be changed to fit.
Monsters? Nope, the mechanics have to be tweaked no matter the edition even though the ideas transfer.
Magic Items? Almost, some work just fine (mostly the miscellaneous/wondrous types) and others defeat the purpose (+1 swords, for example)

Everything from any edition of D&D can have the flavor and idea transferred over, but the same is true of transferring the same materials to Savage Worlds, Shadowrun, or the World of Darkness - so that doesn't count as compatibility.

The mechanics though, have to be changed... and that, to me at least, means that they aren't compatible.

You wouldn't say an inch-and-a-quarter diameter dowel rod was compatible with an inch diameter hole because you can whittle it down with a knife, would you? That is basically how compatible DCC is with D&D.


Don't want to derail this thread but what edition of D&D are you using? I can use any 2nd edition or older module and with minor tweaks on the fly (or with a short prep before a module) run it with little issue. I imagine you can do the same with 3.5 edition or lower as well. The core mechanics of the engine are still the same. You can't say that about other RPGs you listed.

Sure maybe you can't use the sourcebooks and such but the modules, which I suspect is what caveman was talking about, are certainly compatible enough for me. All I know is I much prefer my old hand-crafted antique dowels (modules) over these "new and improved" ones (essentially linear dungeons with minor path variatons). In fact in less than an hour we will be playing B4 The Lost City (an AD&D module), with all adjustments to be made on the fly. If I remember I will come back and let you know how it went.


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 Post subject: Re: Can Clerics only know 4 spells or can pick 4 every morni
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 2:41 pm 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 3:36 am
Posts: 525
TheNobleDrake wrote:
caveman wrote:
How is it really compatible though?
<snip>
The mechanics though, have to be changed... and that, to me at least, means that they aren't compatible.

You wouldn't say an inch-and-a-quarter diameter dowel rod was compatible with an inch diameter hole because you can whittle it down with a knife, would you? That is basically how compatible DCC is with D&D.


Don't want to derail this thread but what edition of D&D are you using? I can use any 2nd edition or older module and with minor tweaks on the fly (or with a short prep before a module) run it with little issue.

The bold portions show my definition of "not compatible" and your explanation of what must be done to use the material. As you can see, I am simply saying that "minor tweaks on the fly" being needed makes something not compatible... I don't really know any other definition to use, as I can run a Shadowrun module with DCC by only making what I consider to be minor tweaks on the fly, so that has to be excluded or I would have to say that every game is compatible with every other game.


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 Post subject: Re: Can Clerics only know 4 spells or can pick 4 every morni
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:40 pm 
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The magic issue of Crawl! has great rules for easily converting older edition spells. Well worth a look.

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 Post subject: Re: Can Clerics only know 4 spells or can pick 4 every morni
PostPosted: Sun Oct 28, 2012 5:21 pm 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer

Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2012 9:45 am
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Location: New Hampshire
I've been thinking about this.

Each god will have their own list of spells which will basically consist of the Cleric spell list, minus any spells that don't make any sense for the deity they choose, plus a few spells specific to that deity. I'm going to allow my clerics to choose their initial spells. After that, if they wish to swap out a spell it will require a Divine Aid check with a DC of 10+spell level.

I decided to go that route because the Divine Aid mechanic is already there, and it has a built in sliding scale of difficulty (that can be lowered by appeasing the god) as the god starts to get annoyed if the cleric tries to switch spells too often.

I feel like it gives Clerics a completely different flavor than Wizards.


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 Post subject: Re: Can Clerics only know 4 spells or can pick 4 every morni
PostPosted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:22 pm 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer

Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2012 8:05 pm
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I like that idea about using the divine aid check, I may have to try that.


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 Post subject: Re: Can Clerics only know 4 spells or can pick 4 every morni
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:00 am 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer

Joined: Tue Aug 21, 2012 3:21 pm
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TheNobleDrake wrote:
You wouldn't say an inch-and-a-quarter diameter dowel rod was compatible with an inch diameter hole because you can whittle it down with a knife, would you? That is basically how compatible DCC is with D&D.


I'd say it's more like a 25 mm dowel in a one-inch hole, IMO - its close enough for most purposes, and the level of conversion required from any edition of D&D or its clones is minimal as long as you're using adventures or setting material.

Converting character options or certain rules might take some work, but in my experience most of the conversion that you'd actually do is running an adventure written for a different game. The amount of work required to run a Shadowrun or World of Darkness adventure in DCC is significantly more than the amount required to run any D&D/Pathfinder/retro-clone/heartbreaker adventure, where most of the relevant numbers such as to-hit, damage, and saving throws can be carried straight across or represented with a quick mental calculation (e.g. DCC AC = 20 - pre-3e AC; 20 - THAC0 = DCC to-hit bonus). I don't even have to look up the DCC equivalent monster, because the difference in values is unimportant for calculating experience points challenge rating, or whatever.


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 Post subject: Re: Can Clerics only know 4 spells or can pick 4 every morni
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 12:07 pm 
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I run old edition modules all the time with NO problem. NPC/Monsters don't play by the same rules for powers/features/kills/stats, so it's not an issue. All you need is Hit Dice, and roll some dice. I use HD for everything from Saves to To-Hit bonus. Old edition monsters can use Old Edition spells without a hitch. A 1st level fighter from 3e can show up (as an NPC) and it'll play exactly the same. Heck, even a 4e wizard would work perfectly fine. It takes NO effort to covert on the fly... (I guess as long as you're familiar to the rules.)

Back to OT.

I make the cleric roll them randomly, and then change a couple as long as the spells picked are compatible with their deity (if you want to be technical, use their Personality Modifier to determine how many they can change). After that, they have to "find" new spells, or earn them. Divine Aid RAW works really well to answer prayers and requests.

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 Post subject: Re: Can Clerics only know 4 spells or can pick 4 every morni
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 1:07 pm 
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Gizrond wrote:
I've been thinking about this.

Each god will have their own list of spells which will basically consist of the Cleric spell list, minus any spells that don't make any sense for the deity they choose, plus a few spells specific to that deity. I'm going to allow my clerics to choose their initial spells. After that, if they wish to swap out a spell it will require a Divine Aid check with a DC of 10+spell level.

I decided to go that route because the Divine Aid mechanic is already there, and it has a built in sliding scale of difficulty (that can be lowered by appeasing the god) as the god starts to get annoyed if the cleric tries to switch spells too often.

I feel like it gives Clerics a completely different flavor than Wizards.


Awesome! I think this works perfectly. To be even more strict, you could also limit the timing to the level-up process (you are being allowed into an even greater level of connection with your diety, week long rites, quests etc.) or just have the DC for the divine aid check lower during level-up vs. random request "I really need this spell to fight the baddie tomorrow..."


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