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 Post subject: Re: 3d6, in order
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:24 am 
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CEBrown wrote:
If we need to be "gentler" to the players, I'd strongly recommend something like this (the current system feels a bit like the DMG one that went: "Generate six sets of stats in order, take the best set" - except this is "2-4 sets, play them all until only one remains" :)

I agree. We kind of do a "take the best set" already, except that you don't know which one will actually survive. Sometimes it's "take the only set standing!" :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: 3d6, in order
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:43 am 
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bholmes4 wrote:
That's why I will make my players roll over their scores. If you have negative modifiers it will be easy to boost your way out of them. If you are already "heroic" you will have a hard time ever increasing them.


For what it's worth, my game will be doing the same. And if this isn't in core DCC, it will be a variant rule offered in the book I'm putting together. It will switch between a stat that is picked by the player and a randomly determined stat -- not including Luck, of course.

The only sticking point for me is whether to offer the benefit every level or every other level. I'm leaning towards every other level starting at 1st. I'll put the mechanic through its paces before I settle on anything concrete.


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 Post subject: Re: 3d6, in order
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:46 am 
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ericphillips wrote:
The difference is that in Basic D&D 10 was average. Look at the pregens in the back of module B1, Keep on the Borderlands. They are all over the place, higher and lower, but with 10 in the middle. Try and use the stats for any AD&D or d20 versions and they make unplayable characters, yet they worked fine in Basic/Expert.

AD&D began a change to where higher scores are better, especially in relation to the changes made to monsters. Eventually, 10 became low, and below 10 became feeble. Thus its been all the way through 3.5. However, it works because it is tuned for that. However, making 10 the medium again is good.


The thing I like best about Basic D&D's stat modifiers is that they're modeled after the bell curve of 3d6. To me, that's a big plus.


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 Post subject: Re: 3d6, in order
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:59 am 
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smathis wrote:
The thing I like best about Basic D&D's stat modifiers is that they're modeled after the bell curve of 3d6. To me, that's a big plus.


I agree. That works great. Reading this topic though, i noticed that these bell-curve modifiers have the strange effect of making it easier to raise higher stats: if you have STR 9 and you get a +3, going to 12, nothing changes. The same bonus applied to STR 15, brings you up to 18 and the modifier changes by +2.
That should work the other way around. Raising stats between 11 and 18 should be increasingly hard. The same of course with dropping stats between 10 and 3.

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 Post subject: Re: 3d6, in order
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:18 am 
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abk108 wrote:
I agree. That works great. Reading this topic though, i noticed that these bell-curve modifiers have the strange effect of making it easier to raise higher stats: if you have STR 9 and you get a +3, going to 12, nothing changes. The same bonus applied to STR 15, brings you up to 18 and the modifier changes by +2. That should work the other way around. Raising stats between 11 and 18 should be increasingly hard. The same of course with dropping stats between 10 and 3.


That's a good point. But maybe the issue is the boosting of stats after character creation, not so much the 3d6 method of generating stats?

One possible solution is to have items, spells, etc. boost stats by a specific bonus (say +1) so that way the value is fairly static. A character with a STR 9 would get a +1 Str modifier when wearing the Bracers of +1 Strength. A character with 18 STR would get a boosted modifier of +4.

Another is to set a specific value for the benefit. A Girdle of Giant Strength gives you a 20 Strength or a +4 or +5 modifier -- whether your character has a natural Strength of 9 or 18.

I'd prefer to keep the Basic D&D modifiers. They solve more problems than they create, IMO. But the desire to make the 3d6 roll --> modifier table applicable to anything and everything after the fact is what needs fixin', IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: 3d6, in order
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:53 am 
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Simple point buy system: Set all ability scores to 10. You can increase an ability score by 1 by decreasing a single other score by 2. Repeat as desired.

What? Foul you cry? That results in a character that is by definition below average? Tough. Roll 3d6 six times in order if you don't like it.


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 Post subject: Re: 3d6, in order
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:14 am 
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I've got no problem with 3d6 in order. Besides, rules for an RPG are merely suggestions. If it makes it more fun for your group to do it some other way - best not let something printed dissuade you from having an awesome time at the table. That would be criminal.

I realize this isn't D&D, but the 1e DMG back in '78 goes on to describe piles of alternate ways to deal with the 'rules' including no less than four methods of rolling abilities (4d6 drop lowest and arrange was very popular).

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 Post subject: Re: 3d6, in order
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:26 pm 
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jmucchiello wrote:
Simple point buy system: Set all ability scores to 10. You can increase an ability score by 1 by decreasing a single other score by 2. Repeat as desired.

What? Foul you cry? That results in a character that is by definition below average? Tough. Roll 3d6 six times in order if you don't like it.


I think the 3d6, as it says in the Beta, has the goal of avoiding any possible min/maxing. With a point buying system like that I could get a ch with 16 STR, dropping PER and INT to 4. A warrior wouldn't need those. Or a wiz with 16 INT, dropping PER and STR.

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 Post subject: Re: 3d6, in order
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:35 pm 
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abk108 wrote:
I think the 3d6, as it says in the Beta, has the goal of avoiding any possible min/maxing. With a point buying system like that I could get a ch with 16 STR, dropping PER and INT to 4.

And then he rolls his occupation and ends up a Halfling.


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 Post subject: Re: 3d6, in order
PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:02 pm 
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jmucchiello wrote:
abk108 wrote:
I think the 3d6, as it says in the Beta, has the goal of avoiding any possible min/maxing. With a point buying system like that I could get a ch with 16 STR, dropping PER and INT to 4.

And then he rolls his occupation and ends up a Halfling.


Good point, but that's just 10%, let's say 20% if you count elves (you don't want 4 Int elves). Dwarves are fine with those stats.
If you create 3-4 identical 0-levels you'll get *at least* 2 humans.

Just want to clarify, I'm not against point-based creation, but in this game it kinda screws the funnel thing up i think

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 Post subject: Re: 3d6, in order
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:51 am 
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Or he'll roll a 1 on his hit points. Or fail a crucial WILL save. I don't think gaming your stats will overcome the FUNNEL. The funnel is not your characters' friend.


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 Post subject: Re: 3d6, in order
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:37 pm 
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jmucchiello wrote:
Or he'll roll a 1 on his hit points. Or fail a crucial WILL save. I don't think gaming your stats will overcome the FUNNEL. The funnel is not your characters' friend.


You got that right. Invariably, it's been the stacked characters that have bit the dust in my 0-level playtests. Maybe it's because players put them up front or play them more recklessly.

Bonuses aren't nearly as important in DCC either. I'd still like to see some form of stat advancement over time. I like bholmes' suggestion, personally. But it's not as macho as getting to 10th level with a 6 Strength, I guess.


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 Post subject: Re: 3d6, in order
PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 3:32 am 
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finarvyn wrote:
I'm curious as to whether folks here plan to do attribute rolls by the book or if this is one of those rules in the book that gets "house ruled" away once the game is published.

I'd need to experience a few games on both sides of the screen to be sure, but I suspect there are exactly two things I'd house rule, with possibly a third:

Char Gen: Roll 3d6 SEVEN times. First six, in order go to stats. Seventh may be discarded or swapped for an earlier stat at player's discretion.

Combat: No fixed "Base AC" - defense is rolled for every attack, on d20 normally, may have higher or lower dice for some situations.

Possibly: Spell DCs may also get an "active roll" instead of a fixed DC; this would need more testing than the above though...


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 Post subject: Re: 3d6, in order
PostPosted: Mon Jul 04, 2011 3:07 pm 
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Heres my cunning 3d6 / 4d6 compromise:

Roll 4d6. Three white dice and a red one.

The white 3d6 is your 0 level starting stat

The best 3 out of all 4 dice = AD&D style - is your potential stat.

You can close the gap with your potential every time you gain a level, by rolling over your current stat on 3d6.

So everyone wins. 3d6 dweebness for the funnel: 4d6 competence for the heroes.


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 Post subject: Re: 3d6, in order
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:20 pm 
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smathis wrote:
bholmes4 wrote:
That's why I will make my players roll over their scores. If you have negative modifiers it will be easy to boost your way out of them. If you are already "heroic" you will have a hard time ever increasing them.


For what it's worth, my game will be doing the same. And if this isn't in core DCC, it will be a variant rule offered in the book I'm putting together. It will switch between a stat that is picked by the player and a randomly determined stat -- not including Luck, of course.

The only sticking point for me is whether to offer the benefit every level or every other level. I'm leaning towards every other level starting at 1st. I'll put the mechanic through its paces before I settle on anything concrete.


Not that I am in favor of this system because bonuses are really huge in DCC, but from a quick analysis I would suggest the following:

At every odd level, you can roll one die in the classes primary attribute (i.e. Warrior = STR ) --- Includes level 1.
At every even level, you can roll one die in one of the a classes Secondary attributes. (i.e. Warrior = AGL, STA)

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 Post subject: Re: 3d6, in order
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:30 pm 
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One thing to remember is that all of the numbers in DCC are compresses closer together. AC's are not has high as in prior versions. Saving Throw bonuses are not as high either. Everything is tighter together... so a bonus from a stat has a far larger impact than in prior editions of d20 type games.

That being said, I would like to float an idea out there for character generation that provides a help or customization to first level characters.

When creating a character, you roll on the profession table before ever picking up a d6 to roll statistics. Next to each profession will be an ability stat. For that single stat, you roll 4d6 instead of 3d6.

I provides a little bit of a pre-disposition for a better stat and allows for racial modifiers (i.e. Halfling professions will provide a Dex bonus). Without starting to significantly disrupt the power curve of DCC RPG.

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 Post subject: Re: 3d6, in order
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 1:38 pm 
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Hamakto wrote:
That being said, I would like to float an idea out there for character generation that provides a help or customization to first level characters.

The problem here is Joseph wants ZERO customization. I'm surprised there isn't a d3 for Alignment chart in the book.

The best fix the community has come up with for this is six occupation charts, one for each stat, and to roll on the chart of your best ability score. (Randomly choose on a tie.)


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 Post subject: Re: 3d6, in order
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:35 pm 
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jmucchiello wrote:
Joseph wants ZERO customization


I don't buy that. I think we are encouraged to try the game that way before discarding that method for something else, especially during beta testing, but ultimately, once a person buys the book, they can do whatever the hell they want with the rules in their home game. Joe Goodman is not going to come to your house and tell you that you are doing it wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: 3d6, in order
PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2011 4:46 pm 
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Aplus wrote:
Joe Goodman is not going to come to your house and tell you that you are doing it wrong.

WTF does that have to do with what I said? Joseph has said on several occasions that he wants chargen to be boom boom boom done in under 5 minutes. The fewer choices the player has THE BETTER. Currently (in the beta) you get exactly one mechanical choice: Alignment. That's as close to zero customization as possible.


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 Post subject: Re: 3d6, in order
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 1:29 am 
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jmucchiello wrote:
The best fix the community has come up with for this is six occupation charts, one for each stat, and to roll on the chart of your best ability score. (Randomly choose on a tie.)


:oops:
i feel ... LIKE A BOSS 8)

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 Post subject: Re: 3d6, in order
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:43 am 
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Point-build was mentioned. I'd like to toss in another vote against, because (1) it opens up the min/max potential, and (2) it makes the funnel pretty much pointless since you could just build three identical characters, knowing that two would die but you'd still have the third.

bholmes4 wrote:
That's why I will make my players roll over their scores. If you have negative modifiers it will be easy to boost your way out of them. If you are already "heroic" you will have a hard time ever increasing them.
I was thinking about this system again. I think that MERP did something similar for skills, and it worked pretty well. How about this:
  • +1 to a single stat every odd numbered level.
  • Pick a stat, try to roll over it. If you succeed you're done.
  • If you fail, you pick another stat and repeat the process until you have attempted all six stats. Once you finish the process, if you still don't have a +1 yet, go back through the list in order.

What this does is lets the player slowly advance stats, and gives some choice (although not automatic) about which stat to improve.

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 Post subject: Re: 3d6, in order
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:50 am 
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finarvyn wrote:
  • +1 to a single stat every odd numbered level.
  • Pick a stat, try to roll over it. If you succeed you're done.
  • If you fail, you pick another stat and repeat the process until you have attempted all six stats. Once you finish the process, if you still don't have a +1 yet, go back through the list in order.

What this does is lets the player slowly advance stats, and gives some choice (although not automatic) about which stat to improve.


+d16, love this.
I was against the "roll over the score you want to increase" because some PCs could improve and others not, just based on a single roll. Maybe Jon has 6 STR and rolls a 5, while Eppin who has 16 rolls over it, and gets +1.
Your way of "you get a +1, somewhere" is good :idea:

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 Post subject: Re: 3d6, in order
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 5:53 am 
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jmucchiello wrote:
The problem here is Joseph wants ZERO customization.
I'm not sure that this is true. What we know is (1) Joseph built zero customization into the original game design, and (2) at this point he hasn't endorsed any of the customization ideas suggested on these boards. (Actually, he hasn't offically weighed in on many ideas suggested on any topic.) While we can safely say that Joseph wants something quick and simple to get players started in a hurry, I don't know for certain that he would veto a simple customization option. He might like it.

jmucchiello wrote:
The best fix the community has come up with for this is six occupation charts, one for each stat, and to roll on the chart of your best ability score. (Randomly choose on a tie.)
Maybe, but I think that folks are putting a lot of weight on something that is supposed to be light and fluffy. Occupation doesn't have a lot of lasting impact in the game. What it does is mostly give flavors to the level-0 dudes at the onset, but this becomes quickly overshadowed once they choose a class.

Making six occupation charts will have the interesting side-effect of making stats more important because a player wanting a particular occupation (say, anything elven) might have to have a particular stat in order to make it happen. It might also reduce some of the cool randomness as you might not get any more "smart dwarf" characters if all of the dwarf options fall under other stats. If nothing else, you'd have to be really careful how the charts were developed.

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 Post subject: Re: 3d6, in order
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:43 am 
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finarvyn wrote:
Maybe, but I think that folks are putting a lot of weight on something that is supposed to be light and fluffy. Occupation doesn't have a lot of lasting impact in the game. What it does is mostly give flavors to the level-0 dudes at the onset, but this becomes quickly overshadowed once they choose a class.

Making six occupation charts will have the interesting side-effect of making stats more important because a player wanting a particular occupation (say, anything elven) might have to have a particular stat in order to make it happen. It might also reduce some of the cool randomness as you might not get any more "smart dwarf" characters if all of the dwarf options fall under other stats. If nothing else, you'd have to be really careful how the charts were developed.


Please correct me if I am wrong. But the occupation charts have a long lasting effect in the game.

Those charts indicate what you character is allowed to make Skill/Knowledge checks on. It provides a very good gauge for the DM on if that action is something a character can attempt.

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 Post subject: Re: 3d6, in order
PostPosted: Sat Jul 09, 2011 2:05 pm 
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Hamakto wrote:
Please correct me if I am wrong. But the occupation charts have a long lasting effect in the game.

Those charts indicate what you character is allowed to make Skill/Knowledge checks on. It provides a very good gauge for the DM on if that action is something a character can attempt.

That's how I see it. Marv keeps dismissing the occupation charts but he forgets that the "skill" system makes your starting occupation potentially important.


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