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 Post subject: Beta Rules Bleed Out
PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2011 9:34 pm 
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Deft-Handed Cutpurse

Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:05 pm
Posts: 261
Location: Central Vermont
In looking at the rules as written, for X levels after taking a fatal wound, where X is the character's level, any healing automatically brings you back, but with a permanent -1 on Stamina.

Also, after the battle you can be found and get a DC 10 Luck check to be alive with 1 hp, an hour of -4 rolls and a permanent -1 to Strength, Agility and Stamina.

We just inadvertently combined the two, using the second rules but thinking they had to happen within one round. A couple quick questions:

Is there any type of healing other than a cleric's Lay On Hands that would allow the first type of character save? is it anything that could be done quickly if the rescuing character didn't already have equipment in hand?
For some characters the chance of losing agility or strength instead of stamina may be considered a plus, why the difference in the two types of permanent damage?


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 Post subject: Re: Beta Rules Bleed Out
PostPosted: Sat Jun 18, 2011 8:37 am 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 8:41 am
Posts: 59
I had a similar question about this. If you follow the bleed out rule then how you die is fairly clear. I wondered about some type of natural healing, but I actually like that it takes magic to save you at this point.

My question is about being "found" on the battlefield. Is this rule designed to mitigate the harshness of the bleed out rule? If so I kind of dislike it. Can you only be "found" if noone noticed that you went down? Cause if so this is only likely to happen if you were fighting alone. But why the "extra save" rule when bleed out already covers it?

If you do combine the two then when you go to zero and are bleeding out and happen to "die" and noone can heal you for whatever reason, you get a luck roll to see if the second situation applies. This is probably how I will handel it when it comes up.


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 Post subject: Re: Beta Rules Bleed Out
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:28 am 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer
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Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:15 am
Posts: 34
I have an additional Bleed Out question... in the Beta Rules it seems to specifically say "reaches 0 hit points". I read that to mean 0 exactly (and that -1 or below was dead-dead). Or do they really mean 0 or fewer = bleeding out?

-Dave


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 Post subject: Re: Beta Rules Bleed Out
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:43 am 
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Cold-Hearted Immortal

Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2002 2:41 pm
Posts: 2694
Location: San Jose, CA
Hi guys,

Thanks for the good questions -- sounds like I need to clarify some things.

Firstly, the rule is that you're dead at ZERO hit points. No -1 hit points here!

Second, we playtested with various kinds of rules over the last 18 months and these two seemed to best evoke the Appendix N feel we're going for. The "body recovery" rule was inspired by Robert E. Howard -- it seems like there are multiple times in the Conan sagas where he's left for dead but it turns out he's just unconscious once someone rolls over his body. (This appears in some other Appendix N fiction as well...plus just "fiction in general.") The "found" rule is only supposed to be used by the party. If the body is swept away in a river, or burned to bits in a fireball, or otherwise can't be recovered, well, then the body can't be recovered! And if the body is recovered by a party not interested in saving the character (i.e., orc raiders sweeping the battlefield for loot), then I would expect they would slit the character's throat if they discovered he wasn't really dead.

The "bleed out" rule is designed to keep higher-level play more fun. At lower levels the two rules might seem redundant. But after you've played a couple adventures and managed to shepherd a character from level 0 to level 3 or 4, it can be a real disappointment to lose him. Yes, this game is supposed to be brutal and pull no punches for the players, but at the same time, I had some bummed out guys in my local campaign after a session where literally the last survivors of the original level 0 game were wiped out and there was nobody surviving of the "original party." After all that character development and those great stories of survival and shared adventure, the players felt really bummed out that there was no way to save their characters as they were downed in combat. We played with several options but I like the "bleed out" rule the best because it creates a strong sense of urgency -- the cleric has to act fast to save the character!! And because this allows the character to recover in that battle it's conceivable that he can still participate in at least some partial manner (i.e., a spellcaster could launch a spell). I think you'll see that this rule makes more sense as your characters level up. If the PC does "bleed out" and completely die, they may still have their "body found" using the other rule, but that one is less forgiving because you've been slowly growing cold on the battlefield...

To answer your specific question, there isn't much natural healing in this game. No healing surges and not many potions! The clerics ability to lay on hands is the primary source of healing after a "bleed-out". (There is value in having two clerics...because if one goes down you've got a backup.) In my personal games I have made allowances for good role playing ideas (i.e., healing herbs recovered from a shaman's hut, stuff like that) and I suppose that could be a good adventure hook -- "there is an herb that makes a great healing poultice but it can only be found in a faraway place..."

Hope that helps.

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Joseph Goodman
Goodman Games
www.goodman-games.com


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 Post subject: Re: Beta Rules Bleed Out
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:47 am 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer
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Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:15 am
Posts: 34
goodmangames wrote:
Firstly, the rule is that you're dead at ZERO hit points. No -1 hit points here!

You might have misinterpreted my question. My question was ... is Zero dead and potentially recoverable and -1 dead-dead (non-recoverable)? Or is 0, -1, -2, -100 all the same level of dead (i.e. can potentially be recovered if handled properly in the bleed out rules)? The beta rules read as if only 0hp invokes bleed-out and less than 0 means you're permanently dead.

-Dave


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 Post subject: Re: Beta Rules Bleed Out
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 7:54 am 
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Cold-Hearted Immortal

Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2002 2:41 pm
Posts: 2694
Location: San Jose, CA
Also, random addition: healing a downed ally while he's bleeding out is also a good creative use of the invoke patron spell. While there are defined tables for that spell, it's also intended for these sorts of moments. "Arioch, restore my ally to life and I promise you a debt of equal value!"

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Joseph Goodman
Goodman Games
www.goodman-games.com


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 Post subject: Re: Beta Rules Bleed Out
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:47 am 
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Deft-Handed Cutpurse

Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:05 pm
Posts: 261
Location: Central Vermont
I have the same question as Dave. I assumed that there just isn't anything below 0, and any damage beyond that doesn't matter.

This led to a great moment in our last session where the party was fighting in a cave above some scaffold. The cleric had already started scrambling down and a first level player at the cave mouth was dropped to zero. Another player in the party figured "well, dead is dead, maybe the cleric can help" and used a Mighty Deed of Valor to sweep the body off the edge with the rear of her spear whilst simultaneously slaying a foe with the tip. No lay on hands, but the fallen body was subsequently checked and found to be alive. I did make the dropped character roll fall damage, but it remarkably resulted in no broken bones (we figure that like being drunk, being dead leaves you rather limp).

So, I like the notion that there just is no negative HP.


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 Post subject: Re: Beta Rules Bleed Out
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:54 am 
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Chaos-Summoning Sorcerer

Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:28 am
Posts: 779
That there are no negative hit points is what the rulebook (and Joseph's other postings) seems to imply.


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 Post subject: Re: Beta Rules Bleed Out
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:56 am 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer
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Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2011 8:15 am
Posts: 34
Ah! Okay... that works. It's a little odd to be crushed by a boulder for 20 points of damage with only 1 remaining and be in the same bleed-out condition as getting a paper-cut under the same circumstances but I can deal with that.

-Dave


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 Post subject: Re: Beta Rules Bleed Out
PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:31 pm 
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Chaos-Summoning Sorcerer

Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:28 am
Posts: 779
The Judge can always apply situational modifiers.


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