Goodman Games

Fan Forums
It is currently Wed Aug 20, 2014 12:30 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours




Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 151 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:59 am 
Offline
Mighty-Thewed Reaver
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:13 am
Posts: 376
Location: Newcastle, England
Sunsword wrote:
Is there a difference between a pdf on the publisher's website or an appendix?

Yes, I think so. In my experience what's in the core rules is the canon to us to houserule from. I don't want a designer's houserules for his own game in the core book, give me a clear statement of intent. I have no problem with PDFs or annual supplements that explore what you can do with the rules, where you can take the game, but don't dilute the game's core book by optional rules appendices.

_________________
Sean Wills


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:31 am 
Offline
Chaos-Summoning Sorcerer

Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:28 am
Posts: 779
"no skills, just ability checks" plus "class die" is already a Zocchi die solution since class dice tend to run d3/d4/d5/d6/d7/d8/d10/d12/d14/d16


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:04 pm 
Offline
Ill-Fated Peasant

Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:51 pm
Posts: 8
jmucchiello wrote:
"no skills, just ability checks" plus "class die" is already a Zocchi die solution since class dice tend to run d3/d4/d5/d6/d7/d8/d10/d12/d14/d16


To my mind the best solution by far.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:57 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:04 pm
Posts: 757
Location: Los Angeles
jmucchiello wrote:
"no skills, just ability checks" plus "class die" is already a Zocchi die solution since class dice tend to run d3/d4/d5/d6/d7/d8/d10/d12/d14/d16


Something like this is definitely better. My only concern is if a d3, etc. is enough to make a significant difference, or even justify a whole class? i.e. make the thief special.

_________________
Reverend Dakota Jesus Ultimak, S.S.M.o.t.S.M.S., D.M.

(Dungeon) Master In Chief of Crawl! fanzine. - http://www.crawlfanzine.com/

"[...] there is no doubt that Dungeons and Dragons and its imitators are right out of the pit of hell." - William Schnoebelen, Straight talk on Dungeons & Dragons


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 4:46 pm 
Offline
Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Mon May 23, 2011 6:38 pm
Posts: 76
For a D3, that's +1 to +3 to the roll. 3.x "class skills" are only, what, +4 (at level 1), versus cross class at 2? Given that DCC RPG targets are a LOT lower than in 3rd, it's totally fitting for a class.

I mean, MDoA's aside, that big boost a warrior gets is that additional +1 to +3 in to hit or damage.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 4:52 pm 
Offline
Ill-Fated Peasant

Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:51 pm
Posts: 8
talmor wrote:
For a D3, that's +1 to +3 to the roll. 3.x "class skills" are only, what, +4 (at level 1), versus cross class at 2? Given that DCC RPG targets are a LOT lower than in 3rd, it's totally fitting for a class.


Indeed.

If it were to follow the same progression as the warrior that's d7 at 5th level and d16 at 10th - a master thief if ever there was one!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 5:23 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:04 pm
Posts: 757
Location: Los Angeles
Bronn wrote:

Indeed.

If it were to follow the same progression as the warrior that's d7 at 5th level and d16 at 10th - a master thief if ever there was one!


Well, but what really makes the Warrior significantly better (in combat) is not only the bonus die but the MDoA.

Regarding the Thief, I'd like to see something other than "better than everyone else at skills" (my biggest gripe with d20/3e+.) Basically some kind of "only Thieves can do" kind of thing. That's why the current % chart is "better" than a bunch of modifiers vs arbitrary DCs. The % based charts imply that only a Thief can do those things. While a bunch of mods vs DC "suggests" that everyone can.

I don't have a solution, only suggestions and preferences: rolling high being better and usage of funky dice.

I've been staring at the charts, other games and my new funky dice for while now. I can't come up with anything myself. I wish my posts were more constructive.

_________________
Reverend Dakota Jesus Ultimak, S.S.M.o.t.S.M.S., D.M.

(Dungeon) Master In Chief of Crawl! fanzine. - http://www.crawlfanzine.com/

"[...] there is no doubt that Dungeons and Dragons and its imitators are right out of the pit of hell." - William Schnoebelen, Straight talk on Dungeons & Dragons


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 6:38 pm 
Offline
Chaos-Summoning Sorcerer

Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:28 am
Posts: 779
Rev, did you see my proposal that attempting an ability check for an action way outside the purview of the character's class uses a d10 instead of a d20? That is why the thief much better at thieving, it's in his wheelhouse.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 7:23 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:04 pm
Posts: 757
Location: Los Angeles
jmucchiello wrote:
Rev, did you see my proposal that attempting an ability check for an action way outside the purview of the character's class uses a d10 instead of a d20? That is why the thief much better at thieving, it's in his wheelhouse.


I did see that. I like where that's going. But it's still just a different way of making the Thief "better" only mathematically, not thematically or stylistically. I'm beginning to think that that is all the thief is essentially--someone would succeeds in doing the mundane more often than others.

_________________
Reverend Dakota Jesus Ultimak, S.S.M.o.t.S.M.S., D.M.

(Dungeon) Master In Chief of Crawl! fanzine. - http://www.crawlfanzine.com/

"[...] there is no doubt that Dungeons and Dragons and its imitators are right out of the pit of hell." - William Schnoebelen, Straight talk on Dungeons & Dragons


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 8:05 pm 
Offline
Chaos-Summoning Sorcerer

Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:28 am
Posts: 779
I think you are asking for a system solution to a role-play issue. Theoretically, only the thief is going to think he can sneak up on the sleeping guard and pick the keyring off his belt without waking the guard. Normal people would not expect to be able to do that. Anyone able to open this lock? Thief says he can. Anyone able to disarm this fire trap? I'll take a look, says the thief.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 9:27 pm 
Offline
Far-Sighted Wanderer
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:57 pm
Posts: 33
goodmangames wrote:
+D30...ha!

Ironically the thief skill system was d20 based for the first year of playtesting. I just changed it a month or two ago. The thief class just wasn't quite "special" enough. I think the use of the Luck die really made a difference in that. So far the reaction to % skills in games has been love it / hate it...appears that everyone here hates it! Does ANYBODY like it? Just curious...

Also, noted elsewhere but bears repeating: thieves can make their % check in addition to the d20 check. So the above noted sneaking example, if the thief fails his % check he can ALSO make the normal Agi check. I think I forgot to actually write this anywhere in the rules though. Thank goodness for playtesters who catch things. :)


I think that both multiple checks (normal d20 skill check + % check if the d20 check fails) and % checks as a whole are both less elegant when compared to how the rest of the rules have shaped up, using the d20 and DCs for skill checks.

I think that the Thieves' Luck die is an excellent way to emulate the literature and compares favorably, given the class's role, to the MDoA die Warriors get. I also think that the Thief's ability to recoup Luck is actually a very powerful defining ability that I suspect will become even more apparent through extended play. Add these plus the extra skills thieves have that other classes do not, and I think that the Thief class is actually quite special in its own right.

I love older versions of D&D, and I understand the draw to a % system for thieves, but this seems to me a case where you had it right the first time, and it fits the system you've adapted better.

_________________
"Plot does not define story. Plot is the framework within which ideas are explored and personalities and relationships are unfolded."
~ Warren Ellis

Explore Science Fiction:
Read On ... Science Fiction: Reading Lists for Every Taste


Last edited by Roman on Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:16 pm 
Offline
Far-Sighted Wanderer
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:57 pm
Posts: 33
talmor wrote:
Secondly, can we collapse the thief skill list? Combine Sneak Silently and Hide in Shadows to a generic "stealth" roll?


I agree that this would be a more elegant way to handle Stealth (or whatever you choose to call "avoid being noticed"). I think it's been noted elsewhere that the point of these skills is to avoid detection, and combining the two would make sense.

Also, I think that combining "Find Trap" and "Disable Trap" would also be more elegant and fluid. Is there a good game system or precedent from the Appendix N literature to keep the two separate?

I might even be tempted and convinced to add "Pick Lock" into that second group of skills ...

_________________
"Plot does not define story. Plot is the framework within which ideas are explored and personalities and relationships are unfolded."
~ Warren Ellis

Explore Science Fiction:
Read On ... Science Fiction: Reading Lists for Every Taste


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:19 pm 
Offline
Chaos-Summoning Sorcerer

Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:28 am
Posts: 779
No, no, no thief skills. Just thief activities that sometimes require ability checks. Skill should be a four-letter word.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:39 pm 
Offline
Far-Sighted Wanderer
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:57 pm
Posts: 33
Hamakto wrote:
One thing that you might of missed in the first walk though of the thief is the following:

Thieves are supposed to burn luck to do successful thief checks. And luck can be burnt after you failed the initial check.

For example: 50% chance to pick the lock... I rolled a 70%. I need 20% more. As a 3rd level thief, I roll a d5 for for each luck point burned, so I might burn two points of luck 2d5 to have a high likely hood of making the 20% I need.

But if I had already rolled a 30% chance, I would not need to bother to burn luck. So the %'s are intentionality low so you have to use the mechanic of the thief.

It is a pretty elegant method to be honest.


You do bring up an excellent point here, I admit. Flat bonuses to a d20 roll vs. a DC might not require a given thief to spend luck as often.

Then again, I know friends who can't roll well to save their lives, and will likely be spending Luck left and right anyway.

_________________
"Plot does not define story. Plot is the framework within which ideas are explored and personalities and relationships are unfolded."
~ Warren Ellis

Explore Science Fiction:
Read On ... Science Fiction: Reading Lists for Every Taste


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Sun Jun 12, 2011 10:53 pm 
Offline
Far-Sighted Wanderer
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 9:57 pm
Posts: 33
jmucchiello wrote:
No, no, no thief skills. Just thief activities that sometimes require ability checks. Skill should be a four-letter word.


Fair enough. Action checks / Ability checks. I'm not wedded to the word "skill."

_________________
"Plot does not define story. Plot is the framework within which ideas are explored and personalities and relationships are unfolded."
~ Warren Ellis

Explore Science Fiction:
Read On ... Science Fiction: Reading Lists for Every Taste


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 2:02 am 
Offline
Ill-Fated Peasant

Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:51 pm
Posts: 8
reverenddak wrote:
Bronn wrote:

Indeed.

If it were to follow the same progression as the warrior that's d7 at 5th level and d16 at 10th - a master thief if ever there was one!


Well, but what really makes the Warrior significantly better (in combat) is not only the bonus die but the MDoA.

Regarding the Thief, I'd like to see something other than "better than everyone else at skills" (my biggest gripe with d20/3e+.) Basically some kind of "only Thieves can do" kind of thing. That's why the current % chart is "better" than a bunch of modifiers vs arbitrary DCs. The % based charts imply that only a Thief can do those things. While a bunch of mods vs DC "suggests" that everyone can.

I don't have a solution, only suggestions and preferences: rolling high being better and usage of funky dice.

I've been staring at the charts, other games and my new funky dice for while now. I can't come up with anything myself. I wish my posts were more constructive.



Maybe the thief gets a bonus die plus access to unique MDoAs when backstabbing? Or you could go the whole hog and have Cunning Deeds of Guile that spin off stealth and lockpicking attempts, etc.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 6:02 am 
Offline
Cold-Hearted Immortal
User avatar

Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 5:42 am
Posts: 2246
Location: Chicago suburbs
jmucchiello wrote:
I think you are asking for a system solution to a role-play issue. Theoretically, only the thief is going to think he can sneak up on the sleeping guard and pick the keyring off his belt without waking the guard. Normal people would not expect to be able to do that. Anyone able to open this lock? Thief says he can. Anyone able to disarm this fire trap? I'll take a look, says the thief.
Agreed, and well said! The thief has a whole list of specialist options that typical characters don't get, and that's what makes this class special.

The problem with skill-based RPGs is that everyone gets to put points into these actions so suddenly the thief has little value anymore.

_________________
Marv / Finarvyn
DCC Minister of Propaganda; Deputized 6/8/11
Image
DCC RPG playtester 2011, C&C playtester 2003,T&T since 2003,
ADRP Since 1993, OD&D player since 1975

"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own."
-- Gary Gygax
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!"
-- Dave Arneson


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 12:59 pm 
Offline
Far-Sighted Wanderer

Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:11 pm
Posts: 45
reverenddak wrote:
Well, but what really makes the Warrior significantly better (in combat) is not only the bonus die but the MDoA.


Something to keep in mind, if Thieves gained the progression to their Skills (or a mix of some kind) using polyhedral dice, the other classes wouldn't get any bonuses. Thats a key difference to the Attack progressions. So having a D3 or whatever to my Ability roll to Hide in Shadows is a big deal compared to just having my Ability, if I'm not a Thief. I prefer the flat bonuses myself. But either is preferable to the percentile.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:02 pm 
Offline
Far-Sighted Wanderer

Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 8:11 pm
Posts: 45
geordie racer wrote:
Sunsword wrote:
Is there a difference between a pdf on the publisher's website or an appendix?

Yes, I think so. In my experience what's in the core rules is the canon to us to houserule from. I don't want a designer's houserules for his own game in the core book, give me a clear statement of intent. I have no problem with PDFs or annual supplements that explore what you can do with the rules, where you can take the game, but don't dilute the game's core book by optional rules appendices.


I appreciate your POV, but technology & "revised/second editions" have blurred the lines for me. Understand, I hope that the percentage rule is changed, but I think this thread shows how "hot button" this issue is. Besides, my DCC probably won't look like yours exactly or anyone else's & thats why I'm wanting to play DCC as opposed to a myriad of other games.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 1:59 pm 
Offline
Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2010 9:05 pm
Posts: 66
I wonder if thieves could gain bonus dice to any attribute check that pertains to thieving (sneak, device, scale, pick pockets, sleight of hand etc.) with two additions.

One, judges could set some DCs at 25 or higher for actions only thieves could do (detect a magic trap, pick a lock just by banging on it, climb a sheet of ice with no tools etc.).

Two, thieves could get skullduggery (love that word) as a class ability. This ability works like mighty deed of arms but only outside of combat. The thief has to roll 3 or higher on his thief die to succeed.

Examples: go hand over hand on stalactites over boiling oil, climb up a waterfall using the hardest to find handholds, sneak past guards without cover, get past guards into a place no thief should be allowed, take the king's crown from his head while he sits at the round table with all his knights etc. Stuff no one could do with just an attribute check, that require an audacious thief using skullduggery, and things that will really, really get the thief in trouble if (when? :D ) he fails.

Mighty deeds of arms could just become mayhem even. :wink: The mayhem of the warrior would then compliment the skullduggery of the thief.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 3:02 pm 
Offline
Mighty-Thewed Reaver
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:13 am
Posts: 376
Location: Newcastle, England
Kruvil wrote:
Stuff no one could do with just an attribute check, that require an audacious thief using skullduggery, and things that will really, really get the thief in trouble if (when? :D ) he fails.
The Thief can already use an ability check and burn his Luck (the Thieves version of MDoA) to attempt such audacious acts.

_________________
Sean Wills


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 5:15 pm 
Offline
Chaos-Summoning Sorcerer

Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:28 am
Posts: 779
DCs in DCCRPG do not map to 3e/4e DCs at all. A DC of 15 is HARD. (Especially if you use the d10 for non-class behavior concept from one of my threads.) Picking a normal lock should be around 15 and hard lock should be around 20. A DC of 25 is for tasks that Hercules would find difficult and 30 for tasks he would find Herculean.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:30 pm 
Offline
Tight-Lipped Warlock

Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:52 pm
Posts: 1084
jmucchiello wrote:
DCs in DCCRPG do not map to 3e/4e DCs at all. A DC of 15 is HARD. (Especially if you use the d10 for non-class behavior concept from one of my threads.) Picking a normal lock should be around 15 and hard lock should be around 20. A DC of 25 is for tasks that Hercules would find difficult and 30 for tasks he would find Herculean.


I hadn't seen that yet. That's a great suggestion, j.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:41 pm 
Offline
Hard-Bitten Adventurer
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:35 pm
Posts: 133
Location: Travelling the Otherworld
Hi all forgive any noobishness on a first post. But.,,

Totally agree with general sentiment. Ditch the % system use a DC d20 check for everything or use % for everything having two systems does not pay homage to anything it just complicates what needs to be a simple and easily grasped system.

Sorry Mr Goodman but you can't do both. Ease of use or "realism" is the choice here. Please. We tried a % system, it didn't suck but it was a confusion. Let it rest in peace.

_________________
{Standard Disclaimer} If it was mentioned already and I missed it, please put this down to my advanced age and senility rather than discourtesy!
My DCC spell work page is here https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1x_NmKhGbZLBukbWH78qR-38ebmMULEIbz1vt64YaILM


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Percentage Thief Skills
PostPosted: Mon Jun 13, 2011 10:06 pm 
Offline
Chaos-Summoning Sorcerer

Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:28 am
Posts: 779
smathis wrote:
jmucchiello wrote:
DCs in DCCRPG do not map to 3e/4e DCs at all. A DC of 15 is HARD. (Especially if you use the d10 for non-class behavior concept from one of my threads.) Picking a normal lock should be around 15 and hard lock should be around 20. A DC of 25 is for tasks that Hercules would find difficult and 30 for tasks he would find Herculean.


I hadn't seen that yet. That's a great suggestion, j.

viewtopic.php?f=65&t=14599


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Forum locked This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 151 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group