Levelling from 0 to 1
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- Wild-Eyed Zealot
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Levelling from 0 to 1
Is level 0 going to be a one adventure origin for characters that results in survivors becoming level 1?
Is there any magic available to level 0 characters? Can they make pacts or call upon higher powers as a mage or priest would do?
I know generally levelling is supposed to be slow and think that is great. Just curious how much need there will be for level 0 adventures and if there was a need for any that were not 'origin' type stories where the characters are fresh off the farm/boat/whatever.
Any input would be appreciated - trying to storyline a few low level adventures.
Is there any magic available to level 0 characters? Can they make pacts or call upon higher powers as a mage or priest would do?
I know generally levelling is supposed to be slow and think that is great. Just curious how much need there will be for level 0 adventures and if there was a need for any that were not 'origin' type stories where the characters are fresh off the farm/boat/whatever.
Any input would be appreciated - trying to storyline a few low level adventures.
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Re: Levelling from 0 to 1
My understanding is that level 0 is the origin story, so to speak. I think Joseph calls it the "Character Funnel" or something like that. Those PCs that survive the 0-level adventure become level 1 and get a class at that time. The character will still have a back story. That is where the PC's profession comes into play.
I don't think that magic is really available unless some sort of deal is struck between the PC and some sort of higher power. But that would be a great way to explain how one of the PCs becomes a wizard.
Harley or Joseph should be able to expand in this more.
I don't think that magic is really available unless some sort of deal is struck between the PC and some sort of higher power. But that would be a great way to explain how one of the PCs becomes a wizard.
Harley or Joseph should be able to expand in this more.
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Re: Levelling from 0 to 1
That's the plan. It gives some interesting long-term characters, I'll tell you!kataskicana wrote:Is level 0 going to be a one adventure origin for characters that results in survivors becoming level 1?
Nope. Nothing. You're lucky to have a club or something similar to use as a weapon. Actually, if you live you should be happy.kataskicana wrote:Is there any magic available to level 0 characters? Can they make pacts or call upon higher powers as a mage or priest would do?
Depending upon how often you start new characters off, I think that 0-level adventures may be very important. If I start a campaign and every time it's the same adventure, players will get bored in a hurry. We need a whole pile of 0-level adventures since each gets used only once but is needed every time.kataskicana wrote:I know generally levelling is supposed to be slow and think that is great. Just curious how much need there will be for level 0 adventures and if there was a need for any that were not 'origin' type stories where the characters are fresh off the farm/boat/whatever.
Good luck, and please share what you come up with.kataskicana wrote:Any input would be appreciated - trying to storyline a few low level adventures.
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Re: Levelling from 0 to 1
I'm not so sure that starting at level 0 will always be desirable. There should be quite a bit of time between level 0 and level 1 to maintain some sort of realism. It would be kind of dumb for know nothing peasants to get in a battle and the next day they suddenly have the ability to cast spells or climb walls like a ninja.dkeester wrote:My understanding is that level 0 is the origin story, so to speak. I think Joseph calls it the "Character Funnel" or something like that. Those PCs that survive the 0-level adventure become level 1 and get a class at that time. The character will still have a back story. That is where the PC's profession comes into play.
I don't think that magic is really available unless some sort of deal is struck between the PC and some sort of higher power. But that would be a great way to explain how one of the PCs becomes a wizard.
Harley or Joseph should be able to expand in this more.
Last edited by mshensley on Tue May 24, 2011 5:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Levelling from 0 to 1
Well, level up at my table never happened like in WoW (DING!), the characters had to spend a weeks with training. The 0 level characters of DCC RPG could be already at the end of their training, or you could use the well know plot device:mshensley wrote:I'm not so sure that starting at level 0 will always be desirable. There should be quite a bit of time between level 0 and level 1 to maintain some sort of realism. It would be kind of dumb for no-nothing peasants to get in a battle and the next day they suddenly have the ability to cast spells or climb walls like a ninja.dkeester wrote:My understanding is that level 0 is the origin story, so to speak. I think Joseph calls it the "Character Funnel" or something like that. Those PCs that survive the 0-level adventure become level 1 and get a class at that time. The character will still have a back story. That is where the PC's profession comes into play.
I don't think that magic is really available unless some sort of deal is struck between the PC and some sort of higher power. But that would be a great way to explain how one of the PCs becomes a wizard.
Harley or Joseph should be able to expand in this more.
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Re: Levelling from 0 to 1
It doesn't work for every character, and it's not something you would want to use every time, but in some cases the difference between level 0 and level 1 could mostly be a matter of confidence. Hunarr the blacksmith always had a pretty good natural ability at combat, for example, but that first time he went into a dungeon everything was happening so fast and he didn't know what to expect. Now that's he survived a dungeon and fights with its denizens, he realizes his potential and isn't a frightened noob anymore.mshensley wrote: I'm not so sure that starting at level 0 will always be desirable. There should be quite a bit of time between level 0 and level 1 to maintain some sort of realism. It would be kind of dumb for no-nothing peasants to get in a battle and the next day they suddenly have the ability to cast spells or climb walls like a ninja.
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Re: Levelling from 0 to 1
I like to think about level-0 as "inexperienced" and level-1 as "experienced." To me, you don't need to be a combat veteran to be level-1.
Now, above level-1 it's a little different. I like to think that it becomes progressively harder and harder to "work up the pyramid" as you try to become higher level. That's part of why I top-out character levels lower than many other DM's do.
Now, above level-1 it's a little different. I like to think that it becomes progressively harder and harder to "work up the pyramid" as you try to become higher level. That's part of why I top-out character levels lower than many other DM's do.
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Re: Levelling from 0 to 1
I tend to agree with this idea.finarvyn wrote:I like to think about level-0 as "inexperienced" and level-1 as "experienced." To me, you don't need to be a combat veteran to be level-1.
Now, above level-1 it's a little different. I like to think that it becomes progressively harder and harder to "work up the pyramid" as you try to become higher level. That's part of why I top-out character levels lower than many other DM's do.
Also the outcome of the first adventure can also be used to explain 'why' or 'how' someone gains a certain class. For example, Roger the jeweler becomes a wizard because of a scroll that he found during the first adventure which allowed him to cast his first spell and he really enjoyed the power which that gave him.
I also think that most adventures in DCC should start with the 0-level adventure. Perhaps after the first adventure the GM decides to hand-wave levels 1-4 and start with level 5. I see the Character Funnel as one of the most important parts of the game.
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Re: Levelling from 0 to 1
An excellent example. Most RPGs encourage you to look at a pile of stats and then build an optimal character around them, but that's not how a lot of fiction plays out.dkeester wrote:Also the outcome of the first adventure can also be used to explain 'why' or 'how' someone gains a certain class. For example, Roger the jeweler becomes a wizard because of a scroll that he found during the first adventure which allowed him to cast his first spell and he really enjoyed the power which that gave him.
Luke Skywalker didn't become a jedi because somebody thought he had the stats for it -- there's a backstory that seems random, a family heirloom that gets handed down, and an adventure sweeps him away from his comfortable life. His first adventure could be called "Escape from Tattooine" and maybe ends when he boards the Falcon and blasts off from Mos Eisley. Prior to that, he's certainly a 0-level dude.
I agree. I'm not sure if it will become boring after a while, which is why I hope we get a flood of 0-level adventures to choose from, but the concept of a group of average guys getting caught up in something bigger than all of them ... and only a few survive to become heroes ... is what the DCC RPG is all about!dkeester wrote:I also think that most adventures in DCC should start with the 0-level adventure. Perhaps after the first adventure the GM decides to hand-wave levels 1-4 and start with level 5. I see the Character Funnel as one of the most important parts of the game.
Marv / Finarvyn
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"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own."
-- Gary Gygax
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Re: Levelling from 0 to 1
I like going from level 0 to 1 in one adventure. I don't think I would like to drag it out. I also think of it as that final step in a characters training before becoming a career adventurer. Kind of like in the movies when a bunch of soldiers straight out of boot camp make it through that first firefight. Now they are grunts.
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Re: Levelling from 0 to 1
I'm quite looking forward to the DCC Rpg. I'm always nostalgic for that old scholl feel but don't really like retro clones since I have the original source material.
This promises to be a fun and new exploration of that old timey religion
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Re: Levelling from 0 to 1
Really? That's not what Appendix N is all about. In fact, most of Appendix N is about people who sought out adventure. What books in N are about people who get caught up in something bigger than them all?finarvyn wrote:but the concept of a group of average guys getting caught up in something bigger than all of them ... and only a few survive to become heroes ... is what the DCC RPG is all about!
Additionally, not all App N protagonists strive to become heroes.
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Re: Levelling from 0 to 1
As it happens, I am mid-stream (so to speak) in The Moon Pool, and it's about a guy who's trying to find out what happened to a colleague, and the world opens up into something bigger and stranger from there...jmucchiello wrote:Really? That's not what Appendix N is all about. In fact, most of Appendix N is about people who sought out adventure. What books in N are about people who get caught up in something bigger than them all?
Additionally, not all App N protagonists strive to become heroes.
Admittedly, that's only one example.
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Re: Levelling from 0 to 1
Bilbo? The four hobbits of the Fellowship of the Ring? Lovecraft is also there in Appendix N, IIRC.jmucchiello wrote:Really? That's not what Appendix N is all about. In fact, most of Appendix N is about people who sought out adventure. What books in N are about people who get caught up in something bigger than them all?
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Re: Levelling from 0 to 1
John Carter wasn't looking for Mars.
Corum was the last of an entire race of level 0s... thats a hardcore character funnel!
Corum was the last of an entire race of level 0s... thats a hardcore character funnel!
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Re: Levelling from 0 to 1
I'll admit that there are also quite a few examples of heroes going on more adventures, but there are also quite a few of the kind I mentioned where common folk get swept away by the adventure.
I didn't mean to imply that all books in Appendix N start out the same way.
I didn't mean to imply that all books in Appendix N start out the same way.
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-- Gary Gygax
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Re: Levelling from 0 to 1
I've had so much fun running 0-level adventures that I may never do much more than that...finarvyn wrote:I agree. I'm not sure if it will become boring after a while, which is why I hope we get a flood of 0-level adventures to choose from, but the concept of a group of average guys getting caught up in something bigger than all of them ... and only a few survive to become heroes ... is what the DCC RPG is all about!
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Re: Levelling from 0 to 1
And that wasn't my point either really. I'm just hoping the game doesn't "need" the 0-1 transition adventure.finarvyn wrote:I didn't mean to imply that all books in Appendix N start out the same way.
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Re: Levelling from 0 to 1
My playtest group "The DCC Expendables" (shameless plug ) didn't run the 0-level adventure. We started at level 5. We did that for the purposes of the playtest, but it is working out well.jmucchiello wrote:And that wasn't my point either really. I'm just hoping the game doesn't "need" the 0-1 transition adventure.finarvyn wrote:I didn't mean to imply that all books in Appendix N start out the same way.
The game can be started at any level. However, the 0-level adventure is basically a part of the character creation process.
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Re: Levelling from 0 to 1
I'll admit that 0-level games have been a blast, but I think eventually players may get bored with them.mythfish wrote:I've had so much fun running 0-level adventures that I may never do much more than that...finarvyn wrote:I agree. I'm not sure if it will become boring after a while, which is why I hope we get a flood of 0-level adventures to choose from, but the concept of a group of average guys getting caught up in something bigger than all of them ... and only a few survive to become heroes ... is what the DCC RPG is all about!
The problem is that 0-level adventures all sort-of resemble a Call of Cthulhu game, where insignificant investigators get bashed by extremely nasty badduns. I think that most fantasy gamers want to dish out some of the bashin' somewhere along the line, and to do that you need to level up so they can access spells and other cool stuff.
Marv / Finarvyn
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"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own."
-- Gary Gygax
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-- Gary Gygax
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Re: Levelling from 0 to 1
That's the sort of game that appeals to me. I'm all for dishing out hurt sometimes, but I much prefer having nobody characters with extremely limited resources who are forced to be creative to survive.finarvyn wrote: I'll admit that 0-level games have been a blast, but I think eventually players may get bored with them.
The problem is that 0-level adventures all sort-of resemble a Call of Cthulhu game, where insignificant investigators get bashed by extremely nasty badduns. I think that most fantasy gamers want to dish out some of the bashin' somewhere along the line, and to do that you need to level up so they can access spells and other cool stuff.
Still, I'm not saying I'd run a 0-level game every week or anything.
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Re: Levelling from 0 to 1
This sounds perfect! I really liked running the DCC adventure where level 0 pcs had to hunt down and slay a wounded minotaur using only cheap weapons that the local milita loaned them. The fact that they were avenging the death of a paladin was also great for planting further plot hooks in the future. It was alot fun with a system that was not meant to be played with level 0 characters (3.5 DnD) so I am sure it will be a blast with DCCRPG.
Being able to start from such humble beginings, and work your way up to being hero's of the realms sounds like a lot of fun. One suggestion that I have is that after the 0 level adventure is over, those that survive become level one, and those that don't roll up new level one pcs. However, those that survived get a little bit of an extra boon. For example, in the DnD version, players that lived and leveld their characters had a couple of extra skill points, and even some low level special abilities or an extra feat. Just offer something to serve as a little bit of an extra perk for those that survive their trial by fire!
Being able to start from such humble beginings, and work your way up to being hero's of the realms sounds like a lot of fun. One suggestion that I have is that after the 0 level adventure is over, those that survive become level one, and those that don't roll up new level one pcs. However, those that survived get a little bit of an extra boon. For example, in the DnD version, players that lived and leveld their characters had a couple of extra skill points, and even some low level special abilities or an extra feat. Just offer something to serve as a little bit of an extra perk for those that survive their trial by fire!
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Re: Levelling from 0 to 1
+1 on saves vs. fear springs to mind...moes1980 wrote:...One suggestion that I have is that after the 0 level adventure is over, those that survive become level one, and those that don't roll up new level one pcs. However, those that survived get a little bit of an extra boon....
...
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- finarvyn
- Cold-Hearted Immortal
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Re: Levelling from 0 to 1
While you could give some sort of extra, one could argue that advancing to 1st level is its own reward. Characters at 1st level get to choose a class with all of the benefits that come along with that class.GnomeBoy wrote:+1 on saves vs. fear springs to mind...moes1980 wrote:...One suggestion that I have is that after the 0 level adventure is over, those that survive become level one, and those that don't roll up new level one pcs. However, those that survived get a little bit of an extra boon....
If some players have to re-roll a character funnel and start over at level-0 they don't get those advantages, so the system is already designed to deal with that issue. (Unless you are suggesting that even players whose level-0 characters all died should also get to start at 1st level....)
Marv / Finarvyn
DCC Minister of Propaganda; Deputized 6/8/11 (over 11 years of SPAM bustin'!)
DCC RPG playtester 2011, DCC Lankhmar trivia contest winner 2015; OD&D player since 1975
"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own."
-- Gary Gygax
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!"
-- Dave Arneson
"Misinterpreting the rules is a shared memory for many of us"
-- Joseph Goodman
DCC Minister of Propaganda; Deputized 6/8/11 (over 11 years of SPAM bustin'!)
DCC RPG playtester 2011, DCC Lankhmar trivia contest winner 2015; OD&D player since 1975
"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own."
-- Gary Gygax
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!"
-- Dave Arneson
"Misinterpreting the rules is a shared memory for many of us"
-- Joseph Goodman
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- Chaos-Summoning Sorcerer
- Posts: 779
- Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:28 am
Re: Levelling from 0 to 1
It's fairly obvious that was what he was suggesting.finarvyn wrote:If some players have to re-roll a character funnel and start over at level-0 they don't get those advantages, so the system is already designed to deal with that issue. (Unless you are suggesting that even players whose level-0 characters all died should also get to start at 1st level....)
I suspect that mixed level parties will be as bad an idea in DCCRPG as they are in D&D 3.x and 4.