Goodman Games

Ok My group just hit this wall. we haven't dealt with wands in any of our previous d&d/pathfinder games so it kinda hit my on the blind side. gave my characters starting gold for a run thought Memphis crawl (3rd level chars) and our 2nd sorcerer/1 cleric bought two wands of cure light wounds 750gp a piece. my immediate question OK lets determine how many charges they have (again never really dealt with making them buying brand new ones just loot) and what do i get in response.. oh it comes with 50 charges..... WHAT? Well things have gone downhill from there they used one wand to complete the dungeon without need of either the sorcerer cleric or the full 3rd level cleric expending a single prepared spell or partaking of any nonmagical healing and its not even half depleted so our cleric is mad since they are now useless and i was stupid enough to point out with that much healing they can pretty much do without checking for traps and with a wand of knock they don't need a rouge at all either.. so now i'm asking simply.....

What is the best way to check the power of wands in Xcrawl

the simple fact that you can actually expect the players to have access to newly made 50 charge wands at any time (the cure light is legal to buy for the crawl i think the knock would have to be loot thank god) right now my cleric is making a monk because the party no longer needs a cleric and i don't want to deal with what amounts to free life for everyone made worse by the fact wands are swift actions to activate so they can heal 3 people in one turn. Please give me a little help here.

Aren't wands standard actions to use?

I'm not a big Xcrawl player, but I can imagine the fanbase thinking it was pretty sucky that the team let a wand do their jobs for them...

i'm not as up on it as i should be i havent had time to really sit down and research past the charges but i have been told by the guy who came up with them that it is in fact a swift action

But even at a standard action it matches a clerics ability to cast cure light so it wouldnt stop the problem

Well, in D&D 3.5 using a wand is a standard action. I have no idea if Xcrawl changes that, but I'd guess it doesn't.

Are you wanting a mechanical solution, or a roleplaying solution...?

I have now had time to look it up and it is a standard action *plots the strangling of a player for trying to trick me*

as for solutions either and both.. i was rather assuming this had come up before and I'd have several suggestions by now... just basically looking for some guidance from people with a bit more experience than i do.

I think this guy is on to something -- if the group gets slagged for relying on an item too much, they may refrain from using it unless it's really, really needed. I mean, who's going to watch, and who's going to pay big endorsement deals, if the team doesn't provide a good show...? Xcrawls are entertainment, not just a case of finish the job and get out alive.

you realize you quoted yourself right gnome...and while all that is true my players are still used to basic d&d and pathfinder itss gonna take a while to cluebat that into them

He does that kind of thing all the time!

Do not...!

Just make sure they witness teams that lost the dungeon getting fat deals and having groupies, uh, 'group' them, because even though they lost, they made things worth watching -- Your team will pick up on it quick enough...

Don't forget that you have to have the spell on your spell list in order to use a wand and that wands don't increase in caster level (unless custom made, which is easy to ban). So the wand may have 50 charges of 1d8+1, but it is always 1d8+1, whereas a 4th level cleric is doing 1d8+4, and has access to a 2d8+4 heal for more drastic healing.

At 6th level, the wand still heals 1d8+1, and the cleric is dong either 1d8+5 or 2d8+6. Even if they get a wand of cure moderate, it only ever heals for 2d8+3.

Also, if you use Sellout, it specifies that in divisions IV - II, each crawler may bring in only one wand. In division I, they're allowed an offensive and a defensive wand each.

If they are having an easy time getting through, the answer is simple: don't take away their wands, just double the monsters!

Page numbers for this haven't found any such rules in Pathfinder which is what I'm using or my back research into 3.5 when i was trying to figure out how they worked when xcrawl was made. also doesn't a wand have a minimum caster level of 4? considering thats the level at which they can be made? this is the argument my players give me.

Proof of the only the cleric/divine spell-caster could use a wand would be very friggin helpful as it would at least force a cleric back into the mix as for the argument that they have more powerful healing available does it matter when they can multi-cast out of the wand for free?

So, do I understand this correctly that you don't have a PHB handy and use it during play/prep?

Basically, from 3e D&D (not as familiar with Pathfinder and Xcrawl is based on D&D anyway):

• A character has to have the spell the wand holds on his spell list in order to use the wand. He doesn't have to know the spell, just have it available on his list.

• Rogues can cast from wands, but need to succeed at a Use Magic Device chceck to do so.

• The caster level of the wand is determined when the wand is created. The higher the level, the higher the cost. The default assumption is that the caster level used for a wand 'off-the-shelf' is the minimum needed to cast the spell otherwise -- a first level cleric casting cure light wounds would heal 1d8+1, so that's the default for a wand of cure light wounds.


If you don't have a PHB handy, this is a pretty good substitute: http://www.d20srd.org/

Also: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wands.htm

And: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#spellTrigger

i have a players handbook (all the pathfinder core books) available during play but the fact you need the spell in your spell list is NOT listed under wands you have to branch out from there to find it under i think spell triggers not exactly a quick look-up and while that would be the minimum to cast the spell... the rules for wand-crafting say its impossible for the wand to be crafted at that level... except by perhaps an npc which is what i'm going with and hobbling them to 20 charges. the rules would dictate that they would have to be 4th or 5th not looking it up right this second to take the feat to create wands and therefore the wands would be that level when made. since my player is now crying that i worked out what that wand costs when taken like that I've basically ruled that an npc made wand starts with 20 charges (to cut down on the massive overuse) and since the cost says its first level its 1st level caster level (one of the problems i was having was also them using the creation rules to say it was higher caster level).

I'd be happy to sell them the by the rules pc made wand if they want it since its not the "cheap" heals the book wand of cure light is 750 gold for 50 cure lights = 15 gp per and also = cleric never casts a friggin spell

research takes me a lot of time which is why i started this thread. now i just have to figure out if I'm amused or annoyed with the rouge using a great sword with improved feint and flanking everything *shrugs*

Okay, so just to be sure: The cost of a wand is (from Pathfinder Core Rulebook, pg 496) level of the spell x creator's caster level x 750 gp. So for a 1d8+1 cure would cost 750 gp for 50 charges. For a 1d8+4 would cost 3,000 gp for 50 charges. Yes you have to be a certain level to create a wand, but when you create it you can voluntarily lower your caster level to make a less expensive wand (and thereby a less effective wand); hence the lowest level needed to cast the spell being the default. If wand creation didn't allow you to lower your caster level when you create a wand, there would be no wands less than 3750 gp to buy (you have to be 5th level to take the feat Craft Wands).



And he's using two feats to get that -- and already has to be standing next to his target to use the feint -- and has to make the Bluff roll everytime versus every target -- and can't carry it over past his next action -- and if it's not a humanoid target there are penalties.

In general, if it sounds fishy or too easy for your players, make them find the rules in the book that support it. The DM doesn't have to be a 100% total expert on the rules, especially if the group is learning the game as you go... Also, to keep games from bogging down, I usually make a call at the table (often letting the player's interpretation stand more or less, unless it's really whacked) and then we check rules later to be right for the following sessions. Also, the more rulebooks you allow, the more wonkiness is going to be created. You're doing some kind of hybrid thing anyway (PF + Xc), so personally, I'd expect strangeness of rules. Just take it easy and if the players are having fun (including you) then it's okay...

read the skill Use Magic Device, it specifically says that you must have the spell in you class list in order to use the wand.
Using the wand is a standard action that does not provoke an attack of oppututinity.
Cure light wands heal for 1d8 +1 and come with 50 charges. Unless you pay to have a wand with a higher caster level.
If the cleric is running around with a wand out he can't use his weapon untill he puts the wand away and draws his weapon, the reverse is also true.
After a few uses of it intelligent monsters are going to notice, wands are fragile, sunder the wand stop the healing, DM's tend to not use the other types of attack actions trip, sunder, bull rush, overun ect...if soemthing is annoying you figure a way within the rules to stop it if you just try and change things players will get annoyed. Get that cleric in melee and see if he keeps that wand out, Divine wands are generally used for pre-combat buffing and post-combat healing in my games because the cleric is usually trying to help out in the fight rather then sitting back throwing spells and using wands but it is a viable option.

If I were you I'd break them a couple of times and see if he sits back just using his wand, I bet it stops pretty quick, and he can only bring one wand with him anyway. Unless the other characters are wiling to spend their cash buying wands for him to use. Also DJ's watch the players past matches and would notice that the cleric sits back casing healing from a wand and plan accordingly, training intellignet monsters to specifically go after the cleric and his annoying wand. It's a blood sport and the DJ's not going to like the idea of his dungeon being trivilized.

The Problem is they don't generally need the healing during the fight they heal up between rooms which means that i dont have monsters around to sunder the wand when he uses it they in fact tend to do all their healing between rooms (i have a player who caracterizes himself as a "combat wombat" playing the rouge and manipulating the group so he can sneak attack every round tends to break down most of the monsters quick and theres enough muscle backing him up that even monsters immune to crits don't last 2 rounds generally which means the nice "attritional" damage that would actualy slow the party down never gets done because they just whip out the wand

Are they having fun?




Are you having fun?

This thread popped into my head when I was thinking about something else earlier today, to wit: Throw things at them that don't do hit point damage. Ability damage and things that lay conditions on them (such as poisons, troglodyte's stench, etc.) are going to put some fear into them, since the cure wand won't help them at all with that stuff. Make 'em sweat!

Your trying to balance the scales, which are tipped in their favor right now. There are 2 ways to do this: take away from their side of the scale (reducing the availability of wands for instance), OR add weight to your side of the scale by increasing the toughness of encounters (I would suggest adding 1 class level to all humanoids, and either 2 HD or a template to others).

I always like to hit my players with "timed runs". When you make a crawl, estimate how much time it will take to complete, then assign points for the over/under timing. If they want to spend all their time "wanding up" between rooms, their final time will suffer.

To quote GnomeBoy quoting GnomeBoy:Give them one or two rooms worth of wand healing, then smack them with Mojo penalties.

Another alternative is to govern usage during the crawl with "local rules":
Only allow item-based healing in specific areas.
Deduct points for every charge or consumable magic item used.
Allow healing for only one member after each room.

As long as the rules are there ahead of time, the players shouldn't have too much to gripe about.

Perhaps healing wands are considered 'doping'.

You can also go with having them sign up with a sponsor that makes healing potions. They would likely look down on the PCs using a competing product (not the same as the cleric actually casting heals since that is granted by the gods and you can't get upset with the state religion).