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 Post subject: Power scale of DCC
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:06 am 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:51 pm
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One of the things that turns me off most of 3e/Pathfinder is the power level. Stats are inflated way too much. If an 18 is the highest a normal person can achieve, magic should be able to exceed this limit, but not ridiculously so. I'd like to see the old cap of 25 in place, or something similar. There should be less emphasis on stats, and more on cool stuff. In 3E/Pathfinder, players reject the more flavorful items and opt for mechanical benefits? Robe of Useful Items? (My all time favorite magical item, btw) Sell it and buy a +2 headband of intellect. Folding Boat? Hocked for an extra plus on a weapon. This takes a lot of the coolness factor out of the game and makes it an exercise in mathematics only. I'd like to see the entire power scale trimmed down. Cap hit points at level 10 ala 1e, max pc attacks at 3. This will speed up combat immensely and make evocation spells useful again. Fireball has stayed the same damage for 30 years, yet hit points have tripled or quadrupled.

In a nutshell, I just want to see smaller numbers. Scale hit points, attacks, damage modifiers all back, and we'll have the same combat we have now, just fewer numbers to add.

Anyway, just my two cents.


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 Post subject: Re: Power scale of DCC
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:35 pm 
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Chaos-Summoning Sorcerer
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JRR wrote:
In a nutshell, I just want to see smaller numbers. Scale hit points, attacks, damage modifiers all back, and we'll have the same combat we have now, just fewer numbers to add.


I think you'll be very happy with it if that's what you're looking for. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Power scale of DCC
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:06 pm 
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Every indication that I've seen is that the DCC rpg will have a much lower power scale than Pathfinder.

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DCC RPG playtester 2011, C&C playtester 2003,T&T since 2003,
ADRP Since 1993, OD&D player since 1975

"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own."
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"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!"
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 Post subject: Re: Power scale of DCC
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:18 pm 
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Cold-Hearted Immortal

Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 6:02 am
Posts: 1787
Location: On the run.
Unless you sell your soul to the chaos gods, spellburn all your strength and con, and sacrifice the lives of your fellow PCs.

Then watch the sparks fly!

//H

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DCC Resource thread: character sheets, judge tools, and the world's fastest 0-level party creator.


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 Post subject: Re: Power scale of DCC
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:24 pm 
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Chaos-Summoning Sorcerer
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Harley Stroh wrote:
Unless you sell your soul to the chaos gods, spellburn all your strength and con, and sacrifice the lives of your fellow PCs.

Then watch the sparks fly!

//H

Darn it, where's the "like" button on this board?

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 Post subject: Re: Power scale of DCC
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 4:39 pm 
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Cold-Hearted Immortal

Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 6:02 am
Posts: 1787
Location: On the run.
JRR wrote:
One of the things that turns me off most of 3e/Pathfinder is the power level. Stats are inflated way too much. If an 18 is the highest a normal person can achieve, magic should be able to exceed this limit, but not ridiculously so. I'd like to see the old cap of 25 in place, or something similar. There should be less emphasis on stats, and more on cool stuff. In 3E/Pathfinder, players reject the more flavorful items and opt for mechanical benefits? Robe of Useful Items? (My all time favorite magical item, btw) Sell it and buy a +2 headband of intellect. Folding Boat? Hocked for an extra plus on a weapon. This takes a lot of the coolness factor out of the game and makes it an exercise in mathematics only. I'd like to see the entire power scale trimmed down. Cap hit points at level 10 ala 1e, max pc attacks at 3. This will speed up combat immensely and make evocation spells useful again. Fireball has stayed the same damage for 30 years, yet hit points have tripled or quadrupled.

In a nutshell, I just want to see smaller numbers. Scale hit points, attacks, damage modifiers all back, and we'll have the same combat we have now, just fewer numbers to add.

Anyway, just my two cents.


While this doesn't speak directly to the question of "numbers," one of Joseph's directives for the DCC was to ensure that magic is magical again. You don't give up a robe of many things .... it might be the only one in existence!

Magic items are no longer buffs to be slotted. They are awesome antiquarian relics that don't admit to the laws of physics. They are magical.

//H

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DCC Resource thread: character sheets, judge tools, and the world's fastest 0-level party creator.


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 Post subject: Re: Power scale of DCC
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 5:59 pm 
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Harley Stroh wrote:
While this doesn't speak directly to the question of "numbers," one of Joseph's directives for the DCC was to ensure that magic is magical again. You don't give up a robe of many things .... it might be the only one in existence!

Magic items are no longer buffs to be slotted. They are awesome antiquarian relics that don't admit to the laws of physics. They are magical.

//H

~like~ ~like~ ~like~ ~like~ ~like~

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Playing RPGs since 1977 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters - Holds the power to play gnomes at will!

Here Be DCC Monsters...

General Yoros, Warrior, Str 13, Agl 8 (10), Stm 17, Per 13, Int 11, Lck 8; Law, HP 39, AC 17, R+2, F+4, W+2, band/shld, warhammer, longsword, longbow, pitchfork

Han Dee, (Weaver) Neutral Thief, Str 10, Agi 13, Stm 11, Per 11, Int 15, Lck 14, AC 13 (Leather), HP 25, Luck Die d6, Backstab 3, Sneak Silently 10, Hide In Shadows 9, Pick Pocket 10, Climb Sheer 10, Pick Lock 9, Find Trap 9, Disable Trap 9, Forge Doc 10, Disguise 3, Read Lang 5, Handle Poison 3, Cast Scroll d14+2, birth augur (Born under the loom) +1 to all skill checks (including thief skills), Banepicks (auto pick lock/disable trap, but lose 1d3 random ability loss, if a 3 then 1 pt is perm)


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 Post subject: Re: Power scale of DCC
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:26 pm 
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Cold-Hearted Immortal

Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2002 2:41 pm
Posts: 2682
Location: San Jose, CA
Well, based on my kill ratios at playtest sessions, I think power inflation is the least of your worries. I would focus more on getting ANY of your characters to 2nd level. Hell, even getting to 1st level would be an accomplishment. Last year I ran 4 or 5 playtest games at GaryCon, and in the very first session I wiped out the ENTIRE party of 0-level characters. Not like 3 or 4 of them, but something like 18 PCs. "Playtest feedback for self: ramp down the death rate!" I consistently wipe out large portions of every party that runs through my playtest sessions. Part of this is my style as DM and preference for deathtrap dungeons, so we've tried running other adventures under the DCC rules (e.g., Tavis ran Castle Zagyg using DCC RPG rules recently) to see how much of it is me vs. the game system. It appears to be a mix. :) But you need not worry, this game has power deflation, if anything!

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 Post subject: Re: Power scale of DCC
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:39 pm 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer

Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 10:43 am
Posts: 23
goodmangames wrote:
Well, based on my kill ratios at playtest sessions, I think power inflation is the least of your worries. I would focus more on getting ANY of your characters to 2nd level. Hell, even getting to 1st level would be an accomplishment.

I too like to run challenging games that result in large PC body counts. There's different ways to balance that out, and I look forward to seeing the place (or, should there be optional rules for HP kickers and the like, places) where DCC RPG ends up falling on the spectrum.


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 Post subject: Re: Power scale of DCC
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:28 pm 
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Chaos-Summoning Sorcerer
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goodmangames wrote:
I consistently wipe out large portions of every party that runs through my playtest sessions

Whereas I tend to be a lot nicer to my players, and I still kill a good 4-5 characters per session.

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 Post subject: Re: Power scale of DCC
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:33 pm 
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Cold-Hearted Immortal

Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 6:02 am
Posts: 1787
Location: On the run.
mythfish wrote:
goodmangames wrote:
I consistently wipe out large portions of every party that runs through my playtest sessions

Whereas I tend to be a lot nicer to my players, and I still kill a good 4-5 characters per session.


Ditto. I've had a couple TPKs, but they are usually player inflicted, going out in a blaze of righteous glory.

Had one PC sacrifice herself to off the big bad guy, and drag an unwilling participant along. She (a halfling) won contested strength checks all the way down. That was fun.

//H

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DCC Resource thread: character sheets, judge tools, and the world's fastest 0-level party creator.


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 Post subject: Re: Power scale of DCC
PostPosted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:52 pm 
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Tight-Lipped Warlock
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Location: In a galaxy far, far, away (Missouri)
That reminds me of my buddy Trevor. Back in the 80s he had one of his fighters grab the necklace of missiles from the magic-user while all were attempting to get away from the "very bad thing" (I can't, for the life of me, recall what it was) and race right up to the monster hurling the necklace down point blank. He stopped the monster as both went out in a mushroom cloud! :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Power scale of DCC
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 1:19 am 
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Hard-Bitten Adventurer

Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 12:09 pm
Posts: 177
While I am a fan of low-powered games, I also think that it should be realistically doable in AD&D for a magic-user to attain 18th level so as to be able to use those 9th-level spells. Sorry for using an AD&D example. I don't know enough about the DCC magic system to be able to use an example from it. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Power scale of DCC
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 9:56 am 
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Cold-Hearted Immortal

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Location: On the run.
Geoffrey wrote:
While I am a fan of low-powered games, I also think that it should be realistically doable in AD&D for a magic-user to attain 18th level so as to be able to use those 9th-level spells. Sorry for using an AD&D example. I don't know enough about the DCC magic system to be able to use an example from it. :)


DCC spellcasters can be incredibly powerful, pulling off miracles, but it can come at a terrible cost. There is only so long that mortals can dabble in the dark arts without being changed. Stare into the abyss and the abyss will look back.

//H

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DCC Resource thread: character sheets, judge tools, and the world's fastest 0-level party creator.


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 Post subject: Re: Power scale of DCC
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 12:37 pm 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer
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I am with the OP... stat have gained too much importance in the late edition of the game, while it should be nice to have a 18 it should not be mandatory

also I like the point on magical item (I would also go for "you need a sword bathed in the blood of a dragon to kill the lich, instead of you need a +4 weapon to hit a lich"

and what I am reading of DCC is really nice :)

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 Post subject: Re: Power scale of DCC
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 2:44 pm 
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Cold-Hearted Immortal

Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2004 6:02 am
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In all the playtests I've run, players have been excited to have a 16 or 15. I don't think I've seen a single 18.

I have seen a couple 3s though. And that is *always* the PC that pulls through.

//H

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DCC Resource thread: character sheets, judge tools, and the world's fastest 0-level party creator.


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 Post subject: Re: Power scale of DCC
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 3:56 pm 
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Chaos-Summoning Sorcerer
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Harley Stroh wrote:
In all the playtests I've run, players have been excited to have a 16 or 15. I don't think I've seen a single 18.

I have seen a couple 3s though. And that is *always* the PC that pulls through.

//H


There was an 18 in one of the games I ran. Pretty sure he still died. :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: Power scale of DCC
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:23 pm 
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Harley Stroh wrote:
one of Joseph's directives for the DCC was to ensure that magic is magical again. You don't give up a robe of many things .... it might be the only one in existence!

Magic items are no longer buffs to be slotted. They are awesome antiquarian relics that don't admit to the laws of physics. They are magical.
I like this concept, that you have the "robe of many things" rather than a "robe of many things." The unique factor helps lend the feeling of magical wonder, since it's not like you can just buy another at MagiMart.

I've run monsters like this sometimes as well, where each dragon has a name so that you're fighting a particular dragon rather than just "a dragon." Or, you fight "the minotaur" or "the medusa" ... much more in line with the literature.

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Marv / Finarvyn
DCC Minister of Propaganda; Deputized 6/8/11
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DCC RPG playtester 2011, C&C playtester 2003,T&T since 2003,
ADRP Since 1993, OD&D player since 1975

"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own."
-- Gary Gygax
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!"
-- Dave Arneson


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 Post subject: Re: Power scale of DCC
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:37 pm 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:51 pm
Posts: 108
Harley Stroh wrote:
Unless you sell your soul to the chaos gods, spellburn all your strength and con, and sacrifice the lives of your fellow PCs.

Then watch the sparks fly!

//H


Is that all? Done. I wasn't using my soul anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Power scale of DCC
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:49 pm 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2006 11:51 pm
Posts: 108
goodmangames wrote:
But you need not worry, this game has power deflation, if anything!


That's good to hear. It's not just how powerful pcs are, I still want them to be able to do cool stuff, I just want the cool things to have lower numbers attached to them. In my Pathfinder game, the ranger with kukris (d4 damage weapon) routinely hits for 25-30 points of damage per hit - and he NEEDS to do that kind of damage, the monsters hit points are so high. I'd rather cut that number at least in half and reduce hit points similarly. Net result, same battle, less modifiers to add, more time gaming, less time doing math. I'm really looking forward to the DCCRPG!


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 Post subject: Re: Power scale of DCC
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:58 pm 
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Ill-Fated Peasant

Joined: Thu Jan 06, 2011 8:39 pm
Posts: 5
This game definitely sounds exciting. I am hoping that the power level is close to what C&C is. I feel that C&C fits nicely between Pathfinder & AD&D. After playing 3.x, AD&D feels a bit too light in terms of power, but Pathfinder & 4ed feels a bit too much. 1st level characters going up against BBEGs with 100 hps just feels too heavy. Based on what I am reading, this could fall close to what I am looking for.


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 Post subject: Re: Power scale of DCC
PostPosted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 11:31 pm 
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Cold-Hearted Immortal

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JRR wrote:
In my Pathfinder game, the ranger with kukris (d4 damage weapon) routinely hits for 25-30 points of damage per hit - and he NEEDS to do that kind of damage, the monsters hit points are so high. I'd rather cut that number at least in half and reduce hit points similarly. Net result, same battle, less modifiers to add, more time gaming, less time doing math. I'm really looking forward to the DCCRPG!


And who needs high damage when you can ram your kurki in the minotaur's eyesocket and dig around until you find the brainstem?

Else what are critical hits for?

//H

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DCC Resource thread: character sheets, judge tools, and the world's fastest 0-level party creator.


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 Post subject: Re: Power scale of DCC
PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:55 am 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer

Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 6:09 pm
Posts: 44
mythfish wrote:
Harley Stroh wrote:
Unless you sell your soul to the chaos gods, spellburn all your strength and con, and sacrifice the lives of your fellow PCs.

Then watch the sparks fly!

//H

Darn it, where's the "like" button on this board?


Starts with the letter 'q'.

Now, how much for that soul?


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 Post subject: Re: Power scale of DCC
PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:03 am 
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Steely-Eyed Heathen-Slayer
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JRR wrote:
One of the things that turns me off most of 3e/Pathfinder is the power level. Stats are inflated way too much. If an 18 is the highest a normal person can achieve, magic should be able to exceed this limit, but not ridiculously so. I'd like to see the old cap of 25 in place, or something similar. There should be less emphasis on stats, and more on cool stuff. In 3E/Pathfinder, players reject the more flavorful items and opt for mechanical benefits? Robe of Useful Items? (My all time favorite magical item, btw) Sell it and buy a +2 headband of intellect. Folding Boat? Hocked for an extra plus on a weapon. This takes a lot of the coolness factor out of the game and makes it an exercise in mathematics only. I'd like to see the entire power scale trimmed down. Cap hit points at level 10 ala 1e, max pc attacks at 3. This will speed up combat immensely and make evocation spells useful again. Fireball has stayed the same damage for 30 years, yet hit points have tripled or quadrupled.

In a nutshell, I just want to see smaller numbers. Scale hit points, attacks, damage modifiers all back, and we'll have the same combat we have now, just fewer numbers to add.

Anyway, just my two cents.

I agree that any magic item you find should be treasured and not parted with lightly. My old DM would probably say something like... Who do you think this shop keeper is Donald Trump. He doesn't have 50,000 GP sitting around waiting to buy all the magic items you want to dump. You might actually need a folding boat to save your skin in the future. Maybe you should keep it. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Power scale of DCC
PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:26 pm 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer

Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:22 pm
Posts: 22
Location: NW Illinois
Harley Stroh wrote:
DCC spellcasters can be incredibly powerful, pulling off miracles, but it can come at a terrible cost. There is only so long that mortals can dabble in the dark arts without being changed. Stare into the abyss and the abyss will look back.

//H


THIS is what magic should be! Am really looking forward to reading the rules.


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