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 Post subject: Re: Ship Dates for 4E Modules
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 9:51 am 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer

Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:30 pm
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goodmangames wrote:
It's interesting to me to hear how the 4E modules are being perceived. All the interior art is by Doug Kovacs, who has been illustrating the DCC series since #17: Legacy of the Savage Kings. He's famous among some of the hard-core DCC fans for dating his illustrations from the 80's. The cover art is by Eric Lofgren, who has also illustrated assorted DCC's over the years, as far back as #35: Gazetteer of the Known Realms. The 4E cover design is new, but it's the same artists, writers, editors, playtesters, etc. And of course the DCC series started with digital art... the covers to the first printings of DCC #1 and DCC #2 were 100% digital. Those digital covers were popular enough to launch the series.


DCC#1 & #2 came out a long time ago and represent less than 4% of your cover art, and while they may have launched the series the digital art hasn't been used again until now.

Your cover art is what grabs your customers. It is the face of the DCC line and the perception is that with 4e you have abandoned the classic in favor of looking like any other game companies product. So maybe you lose a few old gamers, or maybe you lose a large slice of your DCC customer base. Time will tell, but the new cover art and style isn't classic by any means.

NOTE: You may want to check out this thread on the acaeum:
http://www.acaeum.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... sc&start=0


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 Post subject: Re: Ship Dates for 4E Modules
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:13 am 
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Location: San Jose, CA
JZavoda wrote:
Your cover art is what grabs your customers. It is the face of the DCC line and the perception is that with 4e you have abandoned the classic in favor of looking like any other game companies product.


Well, for those who judge books completely by their covers, I guess that is the perception they would draw.

JZavoda wrote:
So maybe you lose a few old gamers, or maybe you lose a large slice of your DCC customer base. Time will tell, but the new cover art and style isn't classic by any means.


For those who actually play the adventures, the game play is just as classic as ever. The first reviewers are already comparing our 4E modules to classic TSR adventures...

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=239731

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 Post subject: Re: Ship Dates for 4E Modules
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 10:55 am 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer

Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:30 pm
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goodmangames wrote:
JZavoda wrote:
Your cover art is what grabs your customers. It is the face of the DCC line and the perception is that with 4e you have abandoned the classic in favor of looking like any other game companies product.


Well, for those who judge books completely by their covers, I guess that is the perception they would draw.

JZavoda wrote:
So maybe you lose a few old gamers, or maybe you lose a large slice of your DCC customer base. Time will tell, but the new cover art and style isn't classic by any means.


For those who actually play the adventures, the game play is just as classic as ever. The first reviewers are already comparing our 4E modules to classic TSR adventures...

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=239731


That will be a good number of your customers.

This change in art and style is some 'bright' idea. Maybe it will work out, but if you just want to dismiss criticism in a denegrating manner then I don't think that bodes well. If the yes men cough up the bucks then you have succeeded, but you still can't call what you're producing now as classic, and certainly your customers aren't.


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 Post subject: Re: Ship Dates for 4E Modules
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 11:05 am 
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Location: San Jose, CA
No denigration intended. Strictly factual - the module contributors are the same, the modules play just like the classics, and there are folks making judgments based strictly on cover art. If covers are driving 100% of a purchasing decision, then maybe I should be publishing art books instead of adventure modules!

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Goodman Games
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 Post subject: Re: Ship Dates for 4E Modules
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 11:26 am 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer

Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2008 4:30 pm
Posts: 30
goodmangames wrote:
No denigration intended. Strictly factual - the module contributors are the same, the modules play just like the classics, and there are folks making judgments based strictly on cover art. If covers are driving 100% of a purchasing decision, then maybe I should be publishing art books instead of adventure modules!


The subject is cover art, not game play. So, strictly factual, you've changed your cover art. The same people who have bought your adventures in the past don't care for it. Cover art drives a huge percentage of sales. It's snarky and rude to say that opinions about cover art don't matter, only opinions about gameply. And while it might be an ego boost to quote positive reviews, it is a smart move to listen to the opinions of people buying your products.

Maybe you should keep publishing what your customers actually want rather than what someone in your company thinks your customers want. Truth will tell in the long run. short term 4e is the new coke, and maybe that will keep your modern classic look going, or bad sales can always be blamed on the economy. But anyone saying your new cover art and style is not what they will pay for must be wrong and not representitive of your customer base.


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 Post subject: Re: Ship Dates for 4E Modules
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 11:43 am 
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Location: San Jose, CA
Well, I sense some strong emotion behind this conversation. I don't think I ever said opinions on cover art don't matter. I do believe game play is more important to an adventure module's popularity than the cover art. Can I state that opinion without being "rude"? But if the cover art is that important to you and some others, then that's something I'll take into account.

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 Post subject: Re: Ship Dates for 4E Modules
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 3:24 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 8:50 pm
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I have to admit I have been shocked at how many posters I have seen over the years say that the art is the single biggest factor in their purchases. Even if its color rather than B/W.

I am a "content" purchaser. So even though I don't like your new cover art, as long as I like what is inside I will still buy.

However, I am definitely not switching to 4E now, so my DCC purchases are going to drop in number irregardless.

Unless they all contain Fat Dragon inserts. Then I'll buy them all. I love building the 3-d Card board stuff. I've loved it ever since the Greyhawk Falcon modules by TSR. So I have been a big fan of Fat Dragon ever since discovering them about 5 years ago.

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 Post subject: Re: Ship Dates for 4E Modules
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 8:12 pm 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer

Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:20 pm
Posts: 19
Joseph,

Hello, I am a fairly new customer to the DCC scene. I purchased DCC#4 a few years ago with the intent to buy more titles. But gaming, for me, took a backseat and I am only just now getting back on board.

The reason I was interested in the first place was the look of the DCC product. Then I realized the feel, gameplay and story was inline with that art; a complete package if you will.

When I play D&D with my friends part of the fun is to immerse ourselves in the feeling, art and nostalgia of the games we played 20-plus years ago... pulling out our old books and forgetting it's 2008... in fact when I was playing in the 90's it was the same thing, we were recently running away from the "ugly" that was post-Gygax-2nd-edition-airbrushed-busily-designed-glossy-cover crap. Bright and overtly fantastic... We were running back towards the dark corners of the dank dungeons and unknown evils that was early D&D to us. It was a nice place that had gotten to be crowded with too many slick products...

Your DCC series was a beacon, after all these years, to bring me back home. Even though it was for a new system that I didn't and never would own (which I happily ignored), I felt the content and associated look and feel was enough to get me to try it out. It's great stuff, inside and out. You brought back some great much-loved and original artist back to the fold. It's the whole deal. It feels, looks and plays like 1980 all over again. Perfect.

So here we are. I'm not interested in the new package. However good the gameplay or content of these new modules, I'm sorry but it's missing too much of that "thing" it had that brought me here. You can try to validate by saying the only important factor is content... so why then would you change the look? Why did you model the original DCCs after an old D&D product in the first place if only content was important? You were going for a fan-base that already existed... No? It seems like you have a new idea or a path you are enticed to take but your core fans are telling you they're not that into it. Aren't you interested in that fan-base's criticisms?

Now If I was a 3E or 4E player from the get-go it may be a different story, and I'm sure those are the folks still singing praises of these new books, But I am not one of those people, I'm one of the people that wants that old-school module with the old-school look and feel. A product that has already been proven to be successful.

I hope you find success with your new line. It's obviously a good product that some people, maybe more so than before, will love... it's just not what I'm looking for.

All that said I do thank you for providing us with 50-plus awesome, well designed DCC Adventures. Each one a ticket to 1980's classic D&D-land. It's been an awesome ride!

Cheers,
David


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 Post subject: Re: Ship Dates for 4E Modules
PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:23 pm 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 4:11 pm
Posts: 74
I think the new covers are great. I guess I have a mild preference for changing up the color of the borders (I don't mind white, I just like a variety of colors :) ), but that's really nothing too big.

The only thing I absolutely don't like is that I have to special order them, because I don't want to go to my LGS anymore! (to make a long story short, we had a messy break up :) ) Sellswords of Punjar sounds like my kind of adventure, and I hear some more DCCs will have Fat Dragon 3D inserts - which is, in a word, "awesome."

To anyone who has it, how is Dragora's Dungeon? What's different about it that makes it "Master Level"?

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 Post subject: Re: Ship Dates for 4E Modules
PostPosted: Mon Sep 01, 2008 5:47 pm 
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Cold-Hearted Immortal

Joined: Sun Dec 01, 2002 2:41 pm
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Location: San Jose, CA
Jonathan Moyer wrote:
To anyone who has it, how is Dragora's Dungeon? What's different about it that makes it "Master Level"?


This thread might have some answers for you:

viewtopic.php?f=18&t=5025

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 Post subject: Re: Ship Dates for 4E Modules
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 7:53 pm 
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Treebore wrote:
I have to admit I have been shocked at how many posters I have seen over the years say that the art is the single biggest factor in their purchases. Even if its color rather than B/W.

I am a "content" purchaser. So even though I don't like your new cover art, as long as I like what is inside I will still buy.

However, I am definitely not switching to 4E now, so my DCC purchases are going to drop in number irregardless.


I was in complete 100% agreement until the last sentence. I'm not fond of 4th edition, but my gaming group wants to play it, so either I adapt to the newer rules and strive to enjoy the game...or look for a new group. And frankly, I can "understand" combat better in 4th edition than I was ever able to in 3rd.

Back to the point--I trust Harley and the other line editors you've hired. I may or may not like the art on the cover of some of your products, but the content is the important part, and that's what keeps me coming back to GG and DCCs.

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 Post subject: Re: Ship Dates for 4E Modules
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:48 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:20 pm
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At least the 4E covers are better than 3/3.5...

:roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Ship Dates for 4E Modules
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:40 pm 
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TheMilford wrote:
At least the 4E covers are better than 3/3.5...

:roll:

*reaches into his bag of holding for his handy dandy ten foot pole so as to be sure not to use it*

um, wait... are you talking PHB, MM, and DMG?

You bring up 'covers' on these boards and people start reaching for their longswords!

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Gnome Boy (a.k.a. "Jon") • DCC play-tester @ DDC 35, Feb 2011. • Beta DL 2111, 7:00 AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since 1977 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters - Holds the power to play gnomes at will!

Here Be DCC Monsters...

General Yoros, Warrior, Str 13, Agl 8 (10), Stm 17, Per 13, Int 11, Lck 8; Law, HP 39, AC 17, R+2, F+4, W+2, band/shld, warhammer, longsword, longbow, pitchfork

Han Dee, (Weaver) Neutral Thief, Str 10, Agi 13, Stm 11, Per 11, Int 15, Lck 14, AC 13 (Leather), HP 25, Luck Die d6, Backstab 3, Sneak Silently 10, Hide In Shadows 9, Pick Pocket 10, Climb Sheer 10, Pick Lock 9, Find Trap 9, Disable Trap 9, Forge Doc 10, Disguise 3, Read Lang 5, Handle Poison 3, Cast Scroll d14+2, birth augur (Born under the loom) +1 to all skill checks (including thief skills), Banepicks (auto pick lock/disable trap, but lose 1d3 random ability loss, if a 3 then 1 pt is perm)


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 Post subject: Re: Ship Dates for 4E Modules
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:44 pm 
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Dude, te 4E covers are waaaay cooler.


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 Post subject: Re: Ship Dates for 4E Modules
PostPosted: Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:53 pm 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer

Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2008 2:20 pm
Posts: 19
GnomeBoy wrote:
TheMilford wrote:
At least the 4E covers are better than 3/3.5...

um, wait... are you talking PHB, MM, and DMG?



Yes, that is correct...phb, DMG and MM. I was being snarky but honest.

I absolutely loathed the 3E covers. Totally moronic,

At least the new books look "designed" at all, with proper art. I don't like them but they "work".

Cheers,
D


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 Post subject: Re: Ship Dates for 4E Modules
PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:37 am 
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Cold-Hearted Immortal
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TheMilford wrote:
Yes, that is correct...phb, DMG and MM. I was being snarky but honest.

Thanks for the clarification. Snarky I can deal with... :twisted:

...But, the thread is called "...4e Modules" and you mention covers and that X edition better than Y... :shock:

-- I was totally ready to buff my Reflex... :mrgreen:

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Gnome Boy (a.k.a. "Jon") • DCC play-tester @ DDC 35, Feb 2011. • Beta DL 2111, 7:00 AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since 1977 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters - Holds the power to play gnomes at will!

Here Be DCC Monsters...

General Yoros, Warrior, Str 13, Agl 8 (10), Stm 17, Per 13, Int 11, Lck 8; Law, HP 39, AC 17, R+2, F+4, W+2, band/shld, warhammer, longsword, longbow, pitchfork

Han Dee, (Weaver) Neutral Thief, Str 10, Agi 13, Stm 11, Per 11, Int 15, Lck 14, AC 13 (Leather), HP 25, Luck Die d6, Backstab 3, Sneak Silently 10, Hide In Shadows 9, Pick Pocket 10, Climb Sheer 10, Pick Lock 9, Find Trap 9, Disable Trap 9, Forge Doc 10, Disguise 3, Read Lang 5, Handle Poison 3, Cast Scroll d14+2, birth augur (Born under the loom) +1 to all skill checks (including thief skills), Banepicks (auto pick lock/disable trap, but lose 1d3 random ability loss, if a 3 then 1 pt is perm)


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 Post subject: Re: Ship Dates for 4E Modules
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:40 pm 
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Are these going to be available in PDF form?

The two local game stores near me couldn't get copies from the distributor....backordered.


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 Post subject: Re: Ship Dates for 4E Modules
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 8:05 pm 
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moofrank wrote:
The two local game stores near me couldn't get copies from the distributor....backordered


Yes, the first wave 4E modules are doing very well... they hit stores this past Monday and almost all distributors sold out by Wednesday. We're getting steady restocks so your store should be able to get them soon. The modules will be available as PDF's over the coming month.

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Goodman Games
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 Post subject: Re: Ship Dates for 4E Modules
PostPosted: Fri Sep 05, 2008 9:46 pm 
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goodmangames wrote:
moofrank wrote:
The two local game stores near me couldn't get copies from the distributor....backordered


Yes, the first wave 4E modules are doing very well... they hit stores this past Monday and almost all distributors sold out by Wednesday. We're getting steady restocks so your store should be able to get them soon. The modules will be available as PDF's over the coming month.


I just got a phone message from my FLGS (Rainy Day Games) that my DCC, M1, and 2 Character Codex's are bieng held for me and I will be picking them up tomorrow afternoon! :D :D :D


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 Post subject: Re: Ship Dates for 4E Modules
PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 5:02 pm 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer

Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 5:38 pm
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Location: Cary, NC
goodmangames wrote:
The modules will be available as PDF's over the coming month.

Sweet. This is what I am looking forward to.

Hopefully sooner, rather than later.


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 Post subject: Re: Ship Dates for 4E Modules
PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 6:22 pm 
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xredjasonx wrote:
goodmangames wrote:
moofrank wrote:
The two local game stores near me couldn't get copies from the distributor....backordered


Yes, the first wave 4E modules are doing very well... they hit stores this past Monday and almost all distributors sold out by Wednesday. We're getting steady restocks so your store should be able to get them soon. The modules will be available as PDF's over the coming month.


I just got a phone message from my FLGS (Rainy Day Games) that my DCC, M1, and 2 Character Codex's are bieng held for me and I will be picking them up tomorrow afternoon! :D :D :D


Yaaaay!!! I've finally got them in my hands! I'm reading through Sellswords right now. I can't wait to run to run this.


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 Post subject: Re: Ship Dates for 4E Modules
PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 3:42 pm 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 3:18 pm
Posts: 78
goodmangames wrote:
The first three 4E releases will be in stores the week of September 2, and will be these titles:

DCC #53: Sellswords of Punjar
Master Dungeons M1: Dragora's Dungeon
Character Codex

The next wave will follow shortly thereafter... I will post details of that timing when it's confirmed.


Has anybody in the UK spotted these for sale anywhere yet ?

Frank

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 Post subject: Re: Ship Dates for 4E Modules
PostPosted: Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:42 pm 
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frank5471uk wrote:
goodmangames wrote:
The first three 4E releases will be in stores the week of September 2, and will be these titles:

DCC #53: Sellswords of Punjar
Master Dungeons M1: Dragora's Dungeon
Character Codex

The next wave will follow shortly thereafter... I will post details of that timing when it's confirmed.


Has anybody in the UK spotted these for sale anywhere yet ?

Frank


Picked up

DCC #53: Sellswords of Punjar
Master Dungeons M1: Dragora's Dungeon

From IGUK (online store)

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 Post subject: Re: Ship Dates for 4E Modules
PostPosted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:46 pm 
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Posts: 78
Arawn76 wrote:

Picked up

DCC #53: Sellswords of Punjar
Master Dungeons M1: Dragora's Dungeon

From IGUK (online store)


Thanks. I have ordered the first three 4e DCCs and M1 from IGUK (a good interent supplier in the UK), although after several months of hoovering up cheap 3.5ed DCCs, I found the full price a bit hard to swallow :-)

It's a shame that all four adventures are 1st level. My group and I have been playing 4e for about 3 months now and are a bit fed up with 1st level dungeons. It would have been nice if at least two of these could have been higher level.

Still, I'm sure I'll love them when they arrive.

Frank

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