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 Post subject: Overlapping abilities.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 4:20 am 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:38 am
Posts: 67
There's this problem I encountered several times... I guess there should be a solution.

Agility vs. Reflexes - it's hard to imagine agile character with poor reflexes or clumsy character with great reaction. I can do it (for example, he can react with mind, not body), but it's not usual case. I was trying to fit Eldrich for my veeeeery old system for cat roleplaying (as in animal fantasy books)... And it's nearly impossible to tell agile cat from cat with good reflexes.

Speed also tends to overlap with other abilities _or_ to lack specializations. Isn't long-term travel a specialization of endurance? Isn't pursuit a specialization of hunting, much more appropriate to cats? Isn't climbing a specialization of agility? Also, only basic Speed die rank matter in actual combat speed. I know how to make speed specializations useful, but it would be better not to use such crutches.

Resistance and Endurance or Resistance and Willpower also don't do well together.

Players get annoyed when they forget one or other thing, thinking that upgrading agility is enough to act fast in combat. Or when they have to upgrade obscure mechanics-tied abilities instead of interesting concept-related abilities .

The problem is that all abilities above are mechanics-tied, so one should be very careful when houseruling something about it...
I guess I'd smack some of them together, tinkering with formulas in such way that they'd contained same number of ability trees... But I'm not sure which and how yet.


Last edited by EvilCat on Mon Aug 25, 2008 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Overlapping abilities.
PostPosted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:47 pm 
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Mighty-Thewed Reaver
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EvilCat wrote:
There's this problem I encountered several times... I guess there should be a solution.

Agility vs. Reflexes - it's hard to imagine agile character with poor reflexes or clumsy character with great reaction. I can do it (for example, he can react with mind, not body), but it's not usual case. I was trying to fit Eldrich for my veeeeery old system for cat roleplaying (as in animal fantasy books)... And it's nearly impossible to tell agile cat from cat with good reflexes.

I agree--I get these mixed up all the time. I would combine them into Agility... but then the ADPs would need to be tweaked. Not a simple fix, as you say.

EvilCat wrote:
Speed also tends to overlap with other abilities _or_ to lack specializations. Isn't long-term travel a specialization of endurance?

It could be, I suppose. But I think it's fine under speed.

EvilCat wrote:
Isn't pursuit a specialization of hunting, much more appropriate to cats?

I don't see that. You can chase someone without hunting them, and you can hunt something without chasing it.

EvilCat wrote:
Isn't climbing a specialization of agility?

Could be.

EvilCat wrote:
Also, only basic Speed die rank matter in actual combat speed. I know how to make speed specializations useful, but it would be better not to use such crutches.

???


EvilCat wrote:
Resistance and Endurance or Resistance or Willpower also don't do well together.

??? not sure what you mean.

EvilCat wrote:
Players get annoyed when they forget one or other thing, thinking that upgrading agility is enough to act fast in combat. Or when they have to upgrade obscure mechanics-tied abilities instead of interesting concept-related abilities .

True. But as long as the character sheet is clear about what does what, then the players should be able to decide what they want to do.

But overlapping abilities in and of itself is not necessarily bad. One of the cool things about Lejendary Adventure was the descriptions of the abilities were VERY broad, and ther was lots of overlap, so players could use their imagination to adapt an ability to the situation.


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 Post subject: Re: Overlapping abilities.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 12:25 am 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:38 am
Posts: 67
dunbruha wrote:
EvilCat wrote:
Isn't pursuit a specialization of hunting, much more appropriate to cats?

I don't see that. You can chase someone without hunting them, and you can hunt something without chasing it.


Well, for cats a chase is always a hunt %) Otherwise I agree with you from the beginning, but still, pursuit can be covered with other abilities (urban lore, scouting...). Less reason to give speed its specializations.

dunbruha wrote:
EvilCat wrote:
Also, only basic Speed die rank matter in actual combat speed. I know how to make speed specializations useful, but it would be better not to use such crutches.

???


Well, do you suddenly become faster than average Arab horse on plains (Speed d12, 120 feet per round) if you upgrade Speed to Speed d4 > Plains d12 (160 feet per round on plains)? I guess not. It isn't stated in rules clearly, but I guess only basic Speed die-rank matters for feet-per-round.

dunbruha wrote:
EvilCat wrote:
Resistance and Endurance or Resistance or Willpower also don't do well together.

??? not sure what you mean.


Sorry, I mistyped second "or" (should be "and"). I meant that they do the same thing half of times (such as resisting poison). Overlapping, in other words.

dunbruha wrote:
But overlapping abilities in and of itself is not necessarily bad. One of the cool things about Lejendary Adventure was the descriptions of the abilities were VERY broad, and ther was lots of overlap, so players could use their imagination to adapt an ability to the situation.


You're right, but players shouldn't be annoyed with quirks of the system, we have D&D4 for that %)

I thought of it much yesterday and made following houserules (all purely theoretical and heavily tinkered with. I am, say, playing with ideas) :

Abilities:
Agility stands.
Reflexes and Speed unite to become "Celerity", encompassing combat order and movement.
Endurance stands.
Willpower stands.
Resistance goes away.

Active DP:
Evade = Agility + Scrutiny (currently I'm training to use Heelys shoes, and I DON'T recommend them, but I can't overestimate role of eyesight in keeping balance. I think it matters for avoiding the attacks, too)
Dodge = Agility + Celerity (I would rename it to "Flee" or something, I mess it up with Evade all the time)
Weaponry, Deflect - no change.

Passive DP:
Toughness = Endurance x2 + Willpower.
Health = Endurance + Willpower (PDP to resist poison, disease, climate conditions and unusual damage; it's less than original Resilience OR Toughness pool, but it has to endure less kinds of harm overall)
Magic Resistance = Willpower + Arcanum (it's lower than original Resilience poll too, but... same logic as with Health DP; I was thinking of adding x2 multiplier, but it makes Willpower too significant.)


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 Post subject: Re: Overlapping abilities.
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:19 pm 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:32 pm
Posts: 528
How about this:

Weaponry = Melee ability tree (MRV). No change.
Dodge = "Celerity" tree MRVs+ Agility trees (MRVs)
Elminate Evade as a distinction.
Deflect = Melee + Shield Specialization. No Change.

Toughness DP: as is.

Resilience DP = Willpower + Endurance (remove resistance, as Evilcat suggested). Works as it does in core rules. Scale it down to remove aspects of "anti-magic" depending on campaign setting. Some sidebar notes should be sufficient to discuss that.

Last Ditch Score (LDS): Literally, the last ditch attempt to avoid disaster. Used only when Resilience is gone, or when otherwise noted. Add Willpower basic tier and Endurance basic Tier MRVs and divide by four, always rounding up. The result is used as a static target number for any opposing harmful effect, other than direct damage. Does not "mitigate harm" and is not a D-pool. Any specializations and masteries relevant to oppose the effect add their MRVs divided by four to the final target number (decided on a case-by case basis by GM and players). So a character with Endurance D8, Willpower D6 resisting an Influence-Stun effect would have a base 4 Last Ditch Score. If the arcanist was using psionics, and the target was specialized in resisting psionic attacks at D6, then his LDS would be +2 for a total of 6. If the arcanist rolled a 6 or lest (ties go to defender in all cases), then the Effect automatically fails. Failing to exceeed a LDS score does not cause a maintained spell to fizzle, but it does mean the Effect was ineffectual agaisnt the target that round.

Note: An arcanist maintaining a spell always uses the original ability check to determine cost and effectiveness. However, if he encounters a target whose LDS score is too high to overcome, he may re-roll the ability check while continuing to maintain the Effect, paying 1/2 the cost of the new roll.


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 Post subject: Re: Overlapping abilities.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 12:38 am 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:38 am
Posts: 67
I like the distinction between Dodge and Evade, that's why I kept them `%) Because of narration value, because of their differences (sometimes you can't run and sometimes evasion is useless), because it makes defense more than standard block-or-dodge alternative. There's always parry, yes, but not every monster has this DP.

It's the same with Health and Magic Resistance - I like these concepts and use unusual damage, such as poison, disease and climate conditions, quite often in my games. Nothing like a plague to demonstrate players that combat prowess is not everything, hehe.

I noticed that many people here developed their own tastes about various aspects of Eldritch - magic resistance, defenses, abilities, realism vs. fantasy and so on... And all these houserules are easily implemented and work fairly well, as far as I understand. This shows how Eldritch has great potential as generic system. Inspiring, isn't it? *_*


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 Post subject: Re: Overlapping abilities.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 3:21 am 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:32 pm
Posts: 528
EvilCat wrote:
I like the distinction between Dodge and Evade, that's why I kept them `%) Because of narration value, because of their differences (sometimes you can't run and sometimes evasion is useless), because it makes defense more than standard block-or-dodge alternative. There's always parry, yes, but not every monster has this DP.


Well, good! That's why I wrote it that way in the first place :)

Quote:
I noticed that many people here developed their own tastes about various aspects of Eldritch - magic resistance, defenses, abilities, realism vs. fantasy and so on... And all these houserules are easily implemented and work fairly well, as far as I understand. This shows how Eldritch has great potential as generic system. Inspiring, isn't it? *_*


Too true. ERP is very, very easy to tweak and change to suit ones tastes. I think we've proven that ;-)

What did you think of my "Last Ditch Score" idea as a 'catch all' saving throw?


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 Post subject: Re: Overlapping abilities.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:16 am 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:38 am
Posts: 67
As I understood, it's like static difficulty for non-Harm magical effects. Good point, as any caster rolls at least 2d4 for spells (Arcanum and Power Source), so we're not restrained with "any difficulty above 4 would make task impossible for most characters" logic.

And that value is (basic Endurance + basic Willpower + appropriate Willpower specializations and masteries) MRVs /4, round up. If the character is out of Resilience, the caster still has to beat that value to affect said character. Although the caster can reroll the spell each turn he maintains it, if his initial roll is not enough to affect the target character.

Something like abilities-derived threshold against magic.

Seems good to represent magic resistance, I'd say. Especially for magical creatures. This way various "Willpower > Resist Psionics > Resist Mind Control" matter, and you don't have to roll saving throw every turn.
It can be stated in character sheet like that:
(say, Endurance d8, Willpower d8 > Resist Psionics d6)
LSD... I mean, LDS: 4, vs. psionics - 6.


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 Post subject: Re: Overlapping abilities.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 4:56 am 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:38 am
Posts: 67
Chances go like this:
(columns are threshold values, rows are spell rolls.)


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 Post subject: Re: Overlapping abilities.
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2008 9:03 pm 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:32 pm
Posts: 528
EvilCat wrote:
Chances go like this:
(columns are threshold values, rows are spell rolls.)


Do these charts assume attacker wins ties?


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 Post subject: Re: Overlapping abilities.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 12:51 am 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:38 am
Posts: 67
Hmm, yes, they are... shouldn't they?


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 Post subject: Re: Overlapping abilities.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:24 am 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:32 pm
Posts: 528
EvilCat wrote:
Hmm, yes, they are... shouldn't they?


I see...in the columns with 100% it's because the lowest combo is 2D4, which you already knew. I must have been drinking when I read the chart. :oops:


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 Post subject: Re: Overlapping abilities.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 3:38 pm 
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Mighty-Thewed Reaver
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How about this?

1. Eliminate Resilience.
2. Change Resistance so that it applies only to non-magical stuff.
3. Combine Agility and Reflexes into Agility (but keep Speed separate).
4. All magical effects with an unwilling target (i.e., that require a “save”) are checked with an opposed roll vs. the Basic rank in Agility, Endurance, or Willpower. (if a Specialization/Mastery is appropriate, it can be rolled as well).
5. Change Toughness to: Endurance + Agility + Willpower. (??? not sure about this...)

In general, there are 4 magic effects that require a save. Each would be checked as follows (these are not hard-and-fast rules, but guidelines):

Curse – vs. Endurance
Harm – vs. Agility, Endurance, or Willpower (depends on nature of spell)
Influence – vs. Willpower
Obscure – vs. Agility

For Harm spells, if the spell roll exceeds the save roll, then the difference is applied to Toughness.

For Curse, Influence, and Obscure spells, if the spell roll exceeds the save roll, then the difference is applied to the targetted Ability. Maintained spells require a save each round.

--------------

Examples:

Bertram the Bad casts Lightning Bolt against Gertrude the Good. Bertram rolls 8 on his spell casting roll, and Gertrude rolls a 5 on her Agility roll. Gertrude takes 3 points of damage to Toughness.

Eric the Evil casts Drown on Nina the Nice. Eric rolls 5 on his casting roll, and Nina rolls a 2 on her Endurance roll. Nina takes a 2-point penalty to Agility > Swim. Eric maintains the spell. The next round, Nina rolls a 6 on her Endurance roll, for no penalty.


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 Post subject: Re: Overlapping abilities.
PostPosted: Thu Aug 28, 2008 8:01 pm 
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Ill-Fated Peasant

Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 6:29 pm
Posts: 4
This may come off as a little green, but I would convert the agility/reflexes into reflexes based upon the previous knowledge that cats are adept at being agile so the real difficulty would fall down to reflexes. I would then convert any saving throws that need changes over to reflex, and endurance. Just to make game play a little simpler. Though the honest answer for everything is to take what you like, and what you don't and run that by the players or GM. Try to use the system to make a game that is more enjoyable to the player themselves.


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 Post subject: Re: Overlapping abilities.
PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2008 10:51 pm 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:32 pm
Posts: 528
I've sent this one to Randy for comment. 8)

dunbruha wrote:
How about this?

1. Eliminate Resilience.
2. Change Resistance so that it applies only to non-magical stuff.
3. Combine Agility and Reflexes into Agility (but keep Speed separate).
4. All magical effects with an unwilling target (i.e., that require a “save”) are checked with an opposed roll vs. the Basic rank in Agility, Endurance, or Willpower. (if a Specialization/Mastery is appropriate, it can be rolled as well).
5. Change Toughness to: Endurance + Agility + Willpower. (??? not sure about this...)

In general, there are 4 magic effects that require a save. Each would be checked as follows (these are not hard-and-fast rules, but guidelines):

Curse – vs. Endurance
Harm – vs. Agility, Endurance, or Willpower (depends on nature of spell)
Influence – vs. Willpower
Obscure – vs. Agility

For Harm spells, if the spell roll exceeds the save roll, then the difference is applied to Toughness.

For Curse, Influence, and Obscure spells, if the spell roll exceeds the save roll, then the difference is applied to the targetted Ability. Maintained spells require a save each round.

--------------

Examples:

Bertram the Bad casts Lightning Bolt against Gertrude the Good. Bertram rolls 8 on his spell casting roll, and Gertrude rolls a 5 on her Agility roll. Gertrude takes 3 points of damage to Toughness.

Eric the Evil casts Drown on Nina the Nice. Eric rolls 5 on his casting roll, and Nina rolls a 2 on her Endurance roll. Nina takes a 2-point penalty to Agility > Swim. Eric maintains the spell. The next round, Nina rolls a 6 on her Endurance roll, for no penalty.


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 Post subject: Re: Overlapping abilities.
PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2008 1:43 pm 
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Mighty-Thewed Reaver
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dancross wrote:
I've sent this one to Randy for comment. 8)

dunbruha wrote:
How about this?

1. Eliminate Resilience.
2. Change Resistance so that it applies only to non-magical stuff.
3. Combine Agility and Reflexes into Agility (but keep Speed separate).
4. All magical effects with an unwilling target (i.e., that require a “save”) are checked with an opposed roll vs. the Basic rank in Agility, Endurance, or Willpower. (if a Specialization/Mastery is appropriate, it can be rolled as well).
5. Change Toughness to: Endurance + Agility + Willpower. (??? not sure about this...)

In general, there are 4 magic effects that require a save. Each would be checked as follows (these are not hard-and-fast rules, but guidelines):

Curse – vs. Endurance
Harm – vs. Agility, Endurance, or Willpower (depends on nature of spell)
Influence – vs. Willpower
Obscure – vs. Agility

For Harm spells, if the spell roll exceeds the save roll, then the difference is applied to Toughness.

For Curse, Influence, and Obscure spells, if the spell roll exceeds the save roll, then the difference is applied to the targetted Ability. Maintained spells require a save each round.

--------------

Examples:

Bertram the Bad casts Lightning Bolt against Gertrude the Good. Bertram rolls 8 on his spell casting roll, and Gertrude rolls a 5 on her Agility roll. Gertrude takes 3 points of damage to Toughness.

Eric the Evil casts Drown on Nina the Nice. Eric rolls 5 on his casting roll, and Nina rolls a 2 on her Endurance roll. Nina takes a 2-point penalty to Agility > Swim. Eric maintains the spell. The next round, Nina rolls a 6 on her Endurance roll, for no penalty.


Cool. Here are some other modifications based on this:

---------------

Non-magic saves:

Poison: roll poison damage vs. Resistance > Poison. Difference in rolls applied to Toughness (or to a specific Ability, depending on the nature of the poison).

Environmental conditions: roll environmental damage vs. Endurance. Difference in rolls applied to Toughness.

Falling damage: no save, or possibly an Agility save to “break the fall”. Difference in rolls applied to Toughness.

Traps: Agility save to avoid (if applicable). Any damage applied to Toughness.

---------------

Other considerations:

Running out of Spell Points: An arcanist who casts a spell but has no SP to spend will deplete his Toughness.

Magic Sacrifice: Pump Magic resistance. Eliminate. [Not applicable if Resilience is removed.]

Arcanist’s innate resistance to spells from their own power source: An arcanist may choose to use her Arcanum tree (instead of Agility, Endurance, or Willpower) to save against spells of the same power source.

----------------

All of these changes increase damage to Toughness, which is why I had it be Endurance + Agility + Willpower. This may need to be looked at to make sure Toughness levels are high enough.


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 Post subject: Re: Overlapping abilities.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 6:39 am 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:38 am
Posts: 67
After I thought about it, I agree that Reflexes specializations should belong to Agility if I'm eliminating Reflexes, and Celerity should be called Speed for clarity, but it still should handle both movement and turn order.

But I still think that game can go without Resistance, with Endurance and Willpower only, with exceptions of resistance-themed creatures and characters.

(Anyway, I think I'll compile houserules mentioned here and elsewhere in this forum to Eldritch Tome of Knowledge. Sunday rocks!)


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 Post subject: Re: Overlapping abilities.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 7:37 am 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:32 pm
Posts: 528
EvilCat wrote:
After I thought about it, I agree that Reflexes specializations should belong to Agility if I'm eliminating Reflexes, and Celerity should be called Speed for clarity, but it still should handle both movement and turn order.

But I still think that game can go without Resistance, with Endurance and Willpower only, with exceptions of resistance-themed creatures and characters.

(Anyway, I think I'll compile houserules mentioned here and elsewhere in this forum to Eldritch Tome of Knowledge. Sunday rocks!)


I'll be switching servers soon. Can you compile your house rules to a Word file?


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 Post subject: Re: Overlapping abilities.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 8:46 am 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2008 1:38 am
Posts: 67
Not only my rules, I wanted to gather houserules from whole Eldritch forum. I guess I don't violate anything as long as I don't take credit for them.

Ok, no problem %)


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 Post subject: Re: Overlapping abilities.
PostPosted: Sun Aug 31, 2008 11:19 am 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2007 11:32 pm
Posts: 528
EvilCat wrote:
Not only my rules, I wanted to gather houserules from whole Eldritch forum. I guess I don't violate anything as long as I don't take credit for them.

Ok, no problem %)


Please do! What I'd suggest is place the name of the poster (even if all you have is the forum name) before each rules suggestion, so we can keep track of who contributed what. It's always nice to have a compilation of optional (if un-playtested) rules out there.

I need the FAQ updated, but we're not quite ready for that yet since I haven't gotten final approval of any one idea or change from the Petras Monster.


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