Bringing back roll-under attribute checks?

[RabidWookie]

I've been playing and loving DCC, but one mechanical issue keeps cropping up for me: the lack of meaningful difference between characters of wildly different attribute levels making attribute or skill checks. For example, a character with strength 9 trying to lift a heavy gate rolls 1d20 and a character with almost double that strength (strength 17) only rolls 1d20+2. That means the strength 17 character is only effectively 10% stronger than the strength 9 character. Am I missing something?

The most intuitive way I can think of to rectify this is to bring back roll under attribute checks. Thoughts/comments?

[GnomeBoy]

The roll-under mechanic is certainly present in the game already -- it's basically a matter of taste on which sort of check to require, vs. a DC or a roll-under.

[RabidWookie]

The roll-under mechanic is certainly present in the game already -- it's basically a matter of taste on which sort of check to require, vs. a DC or a roll-under.

I don't recall seeing roll-under in the rule book.

[Zenitii]

It's mentioned only while speaking of Luck check in case of incoming death - roll your Luck score or below to survive. Other attribute rolls are made the standard way, 1d20 + modifier. I must admit it also bothers me. On one hand it is kinda old school, because back then there wasn't much emphasis on character's attributes and abilities, as the challenges were aimed to test player's skill rather than character's, and rolling high ability scores wasn't as important as it is today in a new school of gaming (feats demanding certain ability scores, convention of playing epic heroes and superstars instead of normal/average people in dangerous situations). On the other hand, the difference between a character with 17 strength and 9 strength is only +2. Given the high range and randomness of d20 (in contrast to 3d6 for example), it is a really measly modifier, and in many cases the person with 9 strength (average man) will manage to overpower a bulky athlete with 17 strength, which I think everyone agrees is highly unlike in reality. I'm eager to change this, but am not sure atm how exactly I should do this.

[ragboy]

We use both roll under and roll target number, depending on the situation.

What if a character with a bonus to their attribute also had the DC reduced in relation to the character without a bonus?

So, for instance in order to bash open this door, the DC is 17 for a STR 9 character (or any character with no bonus to STR). For a 17 STR character, the DC is 15, and they still add their bonus to the roll. For someone with a -1 STR bonus, the DC is 18 and they still apply their STR penalty to their roll. Represents advantage a little more and allows the Judge to toggle the threat to the character.

Dunno. Probably too complicated.

I like roll under because its quick. I also like that feats of STR are handled without a lot of math and rolls. You know a 17 STR person is probably going to overpower a 9 STR person. Give the 9 STR person a 10% chance to win (1 on a d10). Done.

[Rostranor]

I like using the TN method because then I can grant extra bonuses for collaborative efforts. Sometimes I have the assistants roll a die to see how much they are actually helping and sometimes I just add a couple or subtract a couple from the main participants TN roll.

[finarvyn]

I'm a big fan of the "roll under" attribute check. Use it all the time. The key is that unless you're at a game convention or tournament, you don't need to play everything "by the book" but instead can tweak things to run the way you like. I have several rules that I simply don't bother with when I'm running a game at home, and I feel fine with it.

[Raven_Crowking]

Although you have probably already realized it, the dice chain is your friend for "roll under" checks. Rolling under your Strength on 1d16 means the guy with 17-18 makes it automatically; rolling under your Intelligence on 1d30 indicates a task that even your smartest wizard might fail.

[Raven_Crowking]

double post

[ragboy]

A suggestion so awesome you had to say it twice.

[Skyscraper]

I use the roll under mechanic almost exclusively. And as noted by RC, I also use the dice chain to increase/decrease the die as the situation warrants, to make checks easier or tougher. I love the dice chain which is very DCC-esque and gives a mechanical flavor to the game.

This said, I try not to ask for checks if I can avoid it. But that's another topic

[Zenitii]

Roll under attribute is cool, gives much more advantage to the person with a higher attribute and also allows to adjust test difficulty by adding or substracting a number from the roll. The question is - should it also be done with skills? Not to mention the whole idea of skills is quite controversial.

[Doug Kovacs]

There's a lot of wisdom in the above comments, and

I think its good to remind everyone about the dice chain because the way DCC uses it is a fairly new thing.

Also

I believe the book does say you can use a DC or roll under , I use both all the time, but I wouldn't look to the book to give me permission anyhow. You can almost use a roll under luck check for a default stand-in for just about anything. I feel if you have confidence as a DM It can all be decided on the fly and the important part is that the players don't feel like it is unfair. If they do, address it and move on. I have rolled many things like "how strong is that bandit?" or "how many hit points does that door have" on the spot as needed.

one final thing:

I've experimented with adding your entire ability score to a d20 check particularly in contests. It hasn't been science, but it has been fun. You want to throw that bandit out of the boat ? I (the DM) roll a 3d6 how strong is that bandit check , and then we both roll a d20 and add our entire STR score . The winner gets what they want.

"But my atypically strong assed wizard has duck feet from all that corruption last game ," says the player "don't they help me Doug?"
and I say " Sure! roll a d24 instead and add you whole luck"

[Zenitii]

Adding the whole attribute sounds really cool. Well I think I'll just playtest several possibilities and check which one proves best.

[GnomeBoy]

Adding the whole attribute sounds really cool. Well I think I'll just playtest several possibilities and check which one proves best.

~ding ding ding~ We have a winner!

[RabidWookie]

There's a lot of wisdom in the above comments, and

I think its good to remind everyone about the dice chain because the way DCC uses it is a fairly new thing.

Also

I believe the book does say you can use a DC or roll under , I use both all the time, but I wouldn't look to the book to give me permission anyhow. You can almost use a roll under luck check for a default stand-in for just about anything. I feel if you have confidence as a DM It can all be decided on the fly and the important part is that the players don't feel like it is unfair. If they do, address it and move on. I have rolled many things like "how strong is that bandit?" or "how many hit points does that door have" on the spot as needed.

one final thing:

I've experimented with adding your entire ability score to a d20 check particularly in contests. It hasn't been science, but it has been fun. You want to throw that bandit out of the boat ? I (the DM) roll a 3d6 how strong is that bandit check , and then we both roll a d20 and add our entire STR score . The winner gets what they want.

"But my atypically strong assed wizard has duck feet from all that corruption last game ," says the player "don't they help me Doug?"
and I say " Sure! roll a d24 instead and add you whole luck"

I love this idea for contests. I don't see how it could work outside contests without throwing off the DC range unfortunately.