Game feels incomplete

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nrwah
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Game feels incomplete

Post by nrwah » Fri Jun 23, 2017 3:47 pm

I don't want to come off super negative here, I really like most of the book and think there is a solid core of stuff here, but it really feels like some things are missing here, especially if this is supposed to be a stand alone product (What do the different abilities do? Shouldn't there be a more complete equipment list beyond the little one for extra starting equipment, lots of little stuff like this).

I'm particularly frustrated/puzzled by the pure strain human character classes (all the mutant ones are pretty solid, imo). Each one seems to me to be just less interesting than the DCC equivalent. Mighty deeds of action vs. Some bonuses with artifacts, etc. Also look how much more space the DCC classes are given in the book, spending an extra page or two on each one makes them much more evocative. The biggest puzzler to me is the Shaman, I don't know if I'm just not understanding how it works, but as I understand it the only spells the Shaman has access to are X casts of invoke patron a day (or less even with a low bond roll), with the possibility to replace 1 or 2 of them with one of the patrons other spells. Am I supposed to supplement them with DCC spells? How many? If so how about a little bit about converting spells, a few little suggestions about new manifestations for spells, etc. Doesn't have to be a big thing, just a few suggestions to get the imagination going. Just a couple pages, plus maybe a few new patron neutral spells.

Also this is more of a minor complaint, but the best part of the DCC bestiary are things like the tables for generating humanoids and dragons. There's got to be room for two or three similar things here. Some tables for generating mutant tribes, wasteland beasts, robotic monstrosities. Maybe some ideas about taking existing creatures and adding mutations or cybernetic whatevers to them.

I don't know if I'm the only one that feels this way, but please take some more time with this. I'd rather wait a couple months. Decide if this is a stand alone product or a DCC supplement. If it's stand alone I really don't think you can look at this and say this is something as complete as DCC, or that this is something people are going to be running without any reference to DCC. If it's not stand alone, write it like it's not, give us specific references to the DCC core book and suggestions about making thematic switches, etc. where needed.

I really like almost everything in this book. The art is worth the price of admission alone. Mutant/plantient/manimal characters are great. Lots of good stuff, but just not finished cooking yet.

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Re: Game feels incomplete

Post by Clangador » Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:26 am

That's weird because I just got finished reading the whole book and it seemed a pretty solid game to me. Sure it doesn't have as much material in it as the DCC rulebook, but I felt that was a purposeful design feature and not an indicator of an unfinished game. Also, in the spirit of old school RPGs, if something isn't in the book, go make it up for yourself.
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Re: Game feels incomplete

Post by Blood Axe » Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:33 am

Clangador wrote:That's weird because I just got finished reading the whole book and it seemed a pretty solid game to me. Sure it doesn't have as much material in it as the DCC rulebook, but I felt that was a purposeful design feature and not an indicator of an unfinished game. Also, in the spirit of old school RPGs, if something isn't in the book, go make it up for yourself.


I agree. Except for some errata, typos, missing Teleportation - it seems good to me.
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Re: Game feels incomplete

Post by dstack » Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:04 am

There's quite a few things which aren't really explained - most of this is fine if you have DCC, but it makes things a bit tougher in an independent rpg.

For example:
  • What are the abilities used for? There is no description of them, skill checks, or ability checks, as was done in DCC.
  • What is a dice chain?
  • Should there be an equipment list? Some can be divined from the random starting equipment, but that's the only place to find non-artifact equipment. No weapon ranges are given for primitive weapons. (These can be found in the GM Screen but I don't believe it is included for non-Kickstarter purchases).
  • What is healer wetware?
  • How do you gain wetware beyond your initial patron bond roll? What is 4th and 5th level wetware?
For most of this the answer "the GM can make it up" certainly is true but considerably more guidance was provided in DCC.

Like nrwah, I really like the book a lot but I think it could benefit a lot from perhaps another page or two of text.

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Re: Game feels incomplete

Post by BernieTheFlumph » Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:01 am

Unfortunately I'm inclined to agree. The book feels incomplete, and I'm disappointed because I really want to totally love MCC. As a supplement to DCC, the book is great. As a stand-alone-I-have-never-played-DCC game, it's missing a lot of core information. (How to do skill rolls, basic equipment lists, what shamans are supposed to roll to activate spells, the whole Max Program level thing, etc.)

Sure, the majority of people playing MCC are probably coming from DCC and can hack in their own solutions. But If I were totally new to the game (or RPGs in general) I'd be pretty frustrated by the book.
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Re: Game feels incomplete

Post by Clangador » Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:33 pm

Doesn't it say you'll get more out of the game with the DCC RPG? Seems that covers it.
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Re: Game feels incomplete

Post by TGMoore » Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:21 pm

I do not think the MCC Core book in its current format is appropriate for a new to DCC/MCC player as a stand alone game.

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Re: Game feels incomplete

Post by KJ Obrien » Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:51 pm

Clangador wrote:Doesn't it say you'll get more out of the game with the DCC RPG? Seems that covers it.
Yes, but it also says:
"Do I need to own a copy of DCC RPG to enjoy MCC RPG? No! MCC RPG is deliberately designed to be stand-alone. The MCC hardcover includes all the basic rules needed to play. If you own DCC RPG your enjoyment will be enhanced, but that is not necessary."

Except, as it stands now, DCC is absolutely required to run MCC - unless you're already familiar with DCC's rules.

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Re: Game feels incomplete

Post by jamused » Sun Jun 25, 2017 9:01 am

At a minimum to be a stand-alone introduction to the MCC system it needs to explain the abilities, the dice chain, the max number of Wetware programs (or drop that bonus from the Abilities table), and saving throws needs some elaboration on what they are and the difference between Reflex, Fortitude, and Will. Those are absolutely things you need to understand for the rest of the rules, unless you're assuming that everybody picking up MCC is familiar with DCC (or other d20 games for the saves).

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Re: Game feels incomplete

Post by smarttman » Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:42 pm

It is a bummer, but MCC needed at least a minimum another full editing pass. The errors and omissions are both obvious and contradictory - some that should have been seen on an initial pass. The game is cool for sure, but it feels rushed at times

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Re: Game feels incomplete

Post by Aethelwulf22 » Mon Jun 26, 2017 4:44 am

Has there been an official response to these issues yet? Will the errata be sorted out before the book goes to print? I too would much rather wait and get this sorted first.
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Re: Game feels incomplete

Post by TheWizurd » Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:45 am

Let me start by saying that this is an amazing game and I could not write a better one.

It seems that the book was not edited well.

Jim stated on the Facebook page that the game was edited three separate times however.

I am sure that the book has already gone to the printers and is on the slow boat from China by now.

Jim said that the errata will make it into the second print run.

Not trying to be a Negative Nancy this is an amazing game and my group is excited to play it.

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Re: Game feels incomplete

Post by DavetheLost » Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:54 am

I find the game as it stands to be playable. I have no DCC experience and was able to fill in most of the gaps from RP experience. I do have a pdf copy of DCC and it did help with a couple of points, but I am confident that I could run a satifying game without it.

I am glad to hear that the errata will at least be incorporated into the second print run. Hopefully Goodman will give us an easy way to be sure we get that run when it becomes available. It would be nice if KS backers could get a discount.

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Re: Game feels incomplete

Post by smarttman » Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:32 am

When DCC came out they assembled an errata document released a month or two after the game dropped, so I assume that'll happen as well for MCC. Jim said as much. The game is great, but it's just kind of discouraging to an extent. In hindsight I'm glad I didn't do a print backing, I'll wait til the second printing

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Re: Game feels incomplete

Post by KJ Obrien » Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:44 am

TheWizurd wrote:Jim stated on the Facebook page that the game was edited three separate times however.

Jim said that the errata will make it into the second print run.

Not trying to be a Negative Nancy this is an amazing game and my group is excited to play it.
That is extremely disappointing. Apparently this supplement has been in development for years - there was plenty of time to release the PDF to the backers and let us catch all the errata before it went to print.

You're not being a "negative nancy" by wanting the complete game that we were promised (and paid for) in the Kickstarter.

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Re: Game feels incomplete

Post by TheWizurd » Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:50 am

That is extremely disappointing. Apparently this supplement has been in development for years - there was plenty of time to release the PDF to the backers and let us catch all the errata before it went to print.

You're not being a "negative nancy" by wanting the complete game that we were promised (and paid for) in the Kickstarter.
I would totally agree, unfortunately I invested in the leather edition during the Kickstarter.

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Re: Game feels incomplete

Post by Aud » Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:47 am

TheWizurd wrote:Let me start by saying that this is an amazing game and I could not write a better one.

It seems that the book was not edited well.

Jim stated on the Facebook page that the game was edited three separate times however.

I am sure that the book has already gone to the printers and is on the slow boat from China by now.

Jim said that the errata will make it into the second print run.

Not trying to be a Negative Nancy this is an amazing game and my group is excited to play it.
Ooof. Do you have a link to these comments? I can't seem to find them.

I guess you can add me to the 'disappointed' group. That said I'm still going to run and play the game, I'm just terribly surprised such basic things were overlooked. If the backer PDF is the version that's going to print I think an 'addendum' PDF needs to be released for MCC which covers the missing topics (stats, dice chain, skills, clarification on wetware issues). After all, this was supposed to be a stand alone product.

Sadly, I think I'm going to hold off backing any Goodman kickstarters in the future :(

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Re: Game feels incomplete

Post by KJ Obrien » Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:13 am

XXX
Last edited by KJ Obrien on Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:29 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Game feels incomplete

Post by smarttman » Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:43 pm

KJ Obrien wrote:Posted a few minutes ago on the Kickstarter by Goodman Games:
"@Mark The book is at the printer right now! We are still on schedule for a GenCon release this August! Thanks!"

And that kids is when I stopped supporting Goodman Games. Peace out!
To give them credit, I'm working on producing a game right now that is being printed. The process for the volume and size of these books is a multi-week long process, so they are probably getting them back at the skin of their teeth.

The first print of DCC wasn't perfect either. I mean it was missing its index. I just think this could have gone to a better editor, obviously. I'm sure Jim and GG is collecting the errata right now and figuring out the best way to address it. The issues are so large that it's a bit of an elephant they can't ignore

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Re: Game feels incomplete

Post by DavetheLost » Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:59 am

The good news from Goodman Games: At the printer incudes proofing and review. This includes options for correcting errors. Keep posting errata to the errata thread here.

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Re: Game feels incomplete

Post by Blood Axe » Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:15 am

Hold the Kleenex ye of little faith.

Hi everyone, acknowledging your feedback! Couple things. First, if you haven't already added your errata to the official thread, please do so. (See http://goodman-games.com/forums/viewtopic.php… ). Giving us specific, detailed feedback in that thread will help ensure we're reviewing the exact issue you are trying to call out. Secondly, just to be clear, the book is "at the printer" but the printing process includes a proofing stage, which is where we're at right now. There are still several options for correction, which we're assessing now. More to come on that front.
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Re: Game feels incomplete

Post by SavagePanda » Tue Jun 27, 2017 8:25 am

Blood Axe wrote:Hold the Kleenex ye of little faith.

Hi everyone, acknowledging your feedback! Couple things. First, if you haven't already added your errata to the official thread, please do so. (See http://goodman-games.com/forums/viewtopic.php… ). Giving us specific, detailed feedback in that thread will help ensure we're reviewing the exact issue you are trying to call out. Secondly, just to be clear, the book is "at the printer" but the printing process includes a proofing stage, which is where we're at right now. There are still several options for correction, which we're assessing now. More to come on that front.

This is good to know. Lets hope everything is found. Can not post the things i found, the double posts would just clog it up. I am looking forward to a more superior product than the PDF.


Fingers crossed

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Re: Game feels incomplete

Post by smarttman » Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:19 am

Rejoice, for the Dark Master is good. I forgot about proofing rounds, which I do all the dang time -_-

It's been about a week, maybe less since the PDF dropped. I think people need to take a breather

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Re: Game feels incomplete

Post by Aud » Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:40 am

Good news and happy to see a response from GG. :D

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Re: Game feels incomplete

Post by VengerSatanis » Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:39 pm

What's the verdict now? Anyone have an opinion they want to share?

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