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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2018 8:08 pm 
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Deft-Handed Cutpurse

Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:25 am
Posts: 221
I only got the book tonight, but I’m having trouble seeing how the Shaman is worth playing. Without multiple patrons, the rules seem to pretty clearly limit you to a maximum of four spells per day, and that’s assuming you glowburn enough to get the maximum Patron Bond effect. A DCC wizard or cleric who rolls well has effectively unlimited spellcasting ability, but a one-patron Shaman can cast Invoke Patron four times, or Invoke Patron twice and up to two other spells ... at least one of which will be too high level for a level 1 Shaman to cast.

Invoke Patron also seems to be worded in such a way as to disallow multiple uses of the gift wetware in a single day, so there's no point in the "lost" result on the wetware check.

Am I missing something?

_________________
Purple Planeteers:

Jingles Coinclink, Halfling, hag-hacked into haggis

Nurzual the Faceter – M Jwlr - Wiz - L
S 12 A 8 (-1) S 9 P 11 I 15 (+1) L 10
AC 9 HP 6 Mv 30 Init -1 Ref 0 Fort 0 Will 1
Chalk 1pc, 20 gp Gem, Backpack, 10’ chain, 10 sheets parchment, Kith pouch, small hammer, ray-gun, Rope 50', 5gp 10sp 274 cp
shortsword +0(1d6)
Ch Psn (no MM), Clr Spr 65, Force Manip 81, Rd Mag 12, Spidr Cl 69
Pl.Common (basic)

Snooth Inksplot Scribe RIP under cave-in, a crushing loss

Qort Quiddlegit M Hlr - Cler - N(C?)
S 11 temp 14 (+1) A 11 temp 14 (+1) S 6 (-1) P 5 (-2) I 6 (-1) L 5 (-2)
AC 10 temp 11 HP 8 Mov 30 Init 0 Ref t+1 Fort 0 Will -1
club +0 (1d4+1t) - hand mirror, holy wtr, wtrskin Kith drink 12 oz drunk, 31 cp
-2 Ms fire damage
Det Magic

Brandybland Shoetree F Coblr N
S 10 A 9 S 10 P 8 (-1) I 9 L 9
AC 14 HP 1 Mov 30 Init 0 Ref 0 Fort 0; Will -1
gldtr glaive +0 (1d10) - gldtr ch mail - Fe spike, shoehorn, 48 cp
Prof: dagger


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:37 am 
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Posts: 2789
The shaman will end up with the most artifacts.

Artifacts are part of class balance.

_________________
SoBH pbp:

Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:17 am 
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Deft-Handed Cutpurse

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Posts: 221
Raven_Crowking wrote:
The shaman will end up with the most artifacts.

Artifacts are part of class balance.


I get that the shaman will figure out slightly more artifacts with the additional +1 to artifact rolls, but figuring out slightly more artifacts and actually keeping appreciably more artifacts are two different things, the second of which is completely a role-playing dynamic. The idea that the shaman will keep a disproportionate share of loot implies that he does so by refusing to teach others how to use stuff, which seems pretty likely to generate hostility in the rest of the party.

I'm also hard-pressed to see an extra +1 to a certain kind of roll to be a satisfying mechanic that makes up for having extremely restricted power use compared to, say, a mutant with 2-5 mutations that can potentially be used an unlimited number of times per day, especially the passive ones. The shaman who glowburns himself almost to death at first level gets 4 spell slots, basically, whereas a mutant who rolls one of the passive mutations can become almost godlike in power with the same amount of glowburn. And the shaman is constantly indebted to the Patron AI simply by virtue of using the wetware even once a day. The judge would have to hand out an awful lot of artifacts to offset that disparity, wouldn't they?

_________________
Purple Planeteers:

Jingles Coinclink, Halfling, hag-hacked into haggis

Nurzual the Faceter – M Jwlr - Wiz - L
S 12 A 8 (-1) S 9 P 11 I 15 (+1) L 10
AC 9 HP 6 Mv 30 Init -1 Ref 0 Fort 0 Will 1
Chalk 1pc, 20 gp Gem, Backpack, 10’ chain, 10 sheets parchment, Kith pouch, small hammer, ray-gun, Rope 50', 5gp 10sp 274 cp
shortsword +0(1d6)
Ch Psn (no MM), Clr Spr 65, Force Manip 81, Rd Mag 12, Spidr Cl 69
Pl.Common (basic)

Snooth Inksplot Scribe RIP under cave-in, a crushing loss

Qort Quiddlegit M Hlr - Cler - N(C?)
S 11 temp 14 (+1) A 11 temp 14 (+1) S 6 (-1) P 5 (-2) I 6 (-1) L 5 (-2)
AC 10 temp 11 HP 8 Mov 30 Init 0 Ref t+1 Fort 0 Will -1
club +0 (1d4+1t) - hand mirror, holy wtr, wtrskin Kith drink 12 oz drunk, 31 cp
-2 Ms fire damage
Det Magic

Brandybland Shoetree F Coblr N
S 10 A 9 S 10 P 8 (-1) I 9 L 9
AC 14 HP 1 Mov 30 Init 0 Ref 0 Fort 0; Will -1
gldtr glaive +0 (1d10) - gldtr ch mail - Fe spike, shoehorn, 48 cp
Prof: dagger


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 4:38 am 
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Bilgewriggler wrote:
I'm also hard-pressed to see an extra +1 to a certain kind of roll to be a satisfying mechanic that makes up for having extremely restricted power use compared to, say, a mutant with 5 mutations that can potentially be used an unlimited number of times per day, especially the passive ones.


Yeah, I can understand that, and some of the other problems you are citing.

I got a chance to playtest Michael Curtis' Incursion of the Ultradimension, and it gave me some insight into the rules (which you can read about here). Even if you are a mutant, there are rules baked into the system to make you think before using your mutation too much (unless you want to go back to being a non-sentient cactus).

The question did arise, "Why would anyone want to play a shaman?"

It is certainly going to be true that a shaman is constantly indebted to her Patron AI, which makes the relationship more like a cleric to her god than a wizard to her patron. But this really means that the shaman is going to learn where adventure locations are from her Patron AI, which is not necessarily a bad thing.

Quote:
The judge would have to hand out an awful lot of artifacts to offset that disparity, wouldn't they?


Yes. I believe that is the intent. See also here, and note the links to the Glowburn podcasts discussing the PSH classes. They seem a bit underwhelmed by the Shaman as well.

I suspect that part of the build/artifact combo was intended to reflect the 1st Edition AD&D magic-user, who starts the game with a single spell, but, if he survives to higher levels, can be among the most powerful characters encountered. I would dearly love to get into a Jim Wampler game to see how he handles it!

I would recommend combining the material in Mutant Crawl Classics with The Umerican Survival Guide and standard DCC. It would go well with Crawljammer too.

_________________
SoBH pbp:

Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2018 7:01 pm 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:33 pm
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I have yet to see a shaman in actual play, but from reading the class they seem underpowered.

I feel I must be missing something which will come out in play.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:41 am 
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Deft-Handed Cutpurse

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Posts: 221
Thanks for the links. Does the Data Orb supplement clarify anything like how shamans are supposed to "eventually learn" three programs from their Patrons? The Patron AIs are cool, and many of their spells are interesting ... it just seems like a disproportionate amount of the manual is devoted to them without providing a clear mechanic or pathway for how the shaman could ever run more than a tiny handful of programs per day. Even in first edition AD&D, the Magic User could easily look to a future of the highly attainable 5th level and a spread of six or seven spells, depending on intelligence. The MCC rules basically warn the shaman against the only route to that range of programs, which is taking on multiple patrons.

I rolled up a batch of 8 level 1 characters last night just for grins. As luck had it, the last was a PSH, and even had a decent intelligence and lousy strength and agility. But after getting a mutant with Absorption (which clearly begs for maximum glowburn), another with Carapace, and another with Shorter and Amplimorph, I asked myself what I'd pick for that PSH if it were a real character I intended to play, and I knew I'd settle for Healer ahead of Shaman.

(I'll admit, though, I seem to have rolled pretty crazy lucky on mutations for the earlier characters!)

_________________
Purple Planeteers:

Jingles Coinclink, Halfling, hag-hacked into haggis

Nurzual the Faceter – M Jwlr - Wiz - L
S 12 A 8 (-1) S 9 P 11 I 15 (+1) L 10
AC 9 HP 6 Mv 30 Init -1 Ref 0 Fort 0 Will 1
Chalk 1pc, 20 gp Gem, Backpack, 10’ chain, 10 sheets parchment, Kith pouch, small hammer, ray-gun, Rope 50', 5gp 10sp 274 cp
shortsword +0(1d6)
Ch Psn (no MM), Clr Spr 65, Force Manip 81, Rd Mag 12, Spidr Cl 69
Pl.Common (basic)

Snooth Inksplot Scribe RIP under cave-in, a crushing loss

Qort Quiddlegit M Hlr - Cler - N(C?)
S 11 temp 14 (+1) A 11 temp 14 (+1) S 6 (-1) P 5 (-2) I 6 (-1) L 5 (-2)
AC 10 temp 11 HP 8 Mov 30 Init 0 Ref t+1 Fort 0 Will -1
club +0 (1d4+1t) - hand mirror, holy wtr, wtrskin Kith drink 12 oz drunk, 31 cp
-2 Ms fire damage
Det Magic

Brandybland Shoetree F Coblr N
S 10 A 9 S 10 P 8 (-1) I 9 L 9
AC 14 HP 1 Mov 30 Init 0 Ref 0 Fort 0; Will -1
gldtr glaive +0 (1d10) - gldtr ch mail - Fe spike, shoehorn, 48 cp
Prof: dagger


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:04 am 
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I have noted that shamans can learn up to 5th level wetware programs.

I suspect that we will begin to see something along those lines in adventures.

I would also recommend that the judge, if he feels (reasonably) that the shaman is underpowered, simply supply some device that includes wetware programs linked to a global AI that does not deign to otherwise interact with the shaman.

_________________
SoBH pbp:

Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 26, 2018 11:43 am 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:33 pm
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A related follow on question, high Intelligence gives the Shaman a bonus to Maximum Wetware Programs.

This could be read as being the number of wetware programs granted (known) or the number of wetware programs usable in a day.

If it is the former, are these aditional programs granted at first level (or when the shaman bonds with the patron) or are they programs that the patron may grant in exchange for service by the shaman?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 5:58 am 
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Deft-Handed Cutpurse

Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:25 am
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Raven_Crowking wrote:
I have noted that shamans can learn up to 5th level wetware programs.

I suspect that we will begin to see something along those lines in adventures.

I would also recommend that the judge, if he feels (reasonably) that the shaman is underpowered, simply supply some device that includes wetware programs linked to a global AI that does not deign to otherwise interact with the shaman.


It wouldn't be hard at all to pick a spell or two per AI from the DCC book and adapt them, and then just include devices to download the wetware versions as artifacts now and again. But I also think it would have been nicer for the book to have included just two programs per AI, along with a "shared library" made of the remaining spells and a column of "programs known" in the shaman table and a line about the AI granting access to new spells at certain levels. It wouldn't really have required any extra space, and would have kept the shaman from feeling so incomplete.

But who knows ... maybe in play I would find that the class works fine as presented.

DavetheLost wrote:
This could be read as being the number of wetware programs granted (known) or the number of wetware programs usable in a day.

If it is the former, are these aditional programs granted at first level (or when the shaman bonds with the patron) or are they programs that the patron may grant in exchange for service by the shaman?

Yeah, I found this the most frustrating thing about the class. It's like the text for the ability score effect was written without even referring to the text in the class description. How can you modify wetware program count or max wetware progrems when the class and AI descriptions don't use those terms?

I really think the game looks awesome, but the way the shaman is currently presented, I almost wish they'd left it out and saved it for a supplement that would have been more clear and complete.

_________________
Purple Planeteers:

Jingles Coinclink, Halfling, hag-hacked into haggis

Nurzual the Faceter – M Jwlr - Wiz - L
S 12 A 8 (-1) S 9 P 11 I 15 (+1) L 10
AC 9 HP 6 Mv 30 Init -1 Ref 0 Fort 0 Will 1
Chalk 1pc, 20 gp Gem, Backpack, 10’ chain, 10 sheets parchment, Kith pouch, small hammer, ray-gun, Rope 50', 5gp 10sp 274 cp
shortsword +0(1d6)
Ch Psn (no MM), Clr Spr 65, Force Manip 81, Rd Mag 12, Spidr Cl 69
Pl.Common (basic)

Snooth Inksplot Scribe RIP under cave-in, a crushing loss

Qort Quiddlegit M Hlr - Cler - N(C?)
S 11 temp 14 (+1) A 11 temp 14 (+1) S 6 (-1) P 5 (-2) I 6 (-1) L 5 (-2)
AC 10 temp 11 HP 8 Mov 30 Init 0 Ref t+1 Fort 0 Will -1
club +0 (1d4+1t) - hand mirror, holy wtr, wtrskin Kith drink 12 oz drunk, 31 cp
-2 Ms fire damage
Det Magic

Brandybland Shoetree F Coblr N
S 10 A 9 S 10 P 8 (-1) I 9 L 9
AC 14 HP 1 Mov 30 Init 0 Ref 0 Fort 0; Will -1
gldtr glaive +0 (1d10) - gldtr ch mail - Fe spike, shoehorn, 48 cp
Prof: dagger


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 3:30 pm 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:33 pm
Posts: 58
Somewhere in the book is a note that the Wetware programs from the Intelligence bonus are in addition to the ones granted by Patron Bond. I was just reading the book today and came across that.

Also noted that wetware programs are functionally teh same as sells, so in theory a Shaman could choose DCC spells as additional wetware. I still hope for additional MCC wetware in future products though.

I feel I need to see a shaman in actual play even more now.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 2:29 am 
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Deft-Handed Cutpurse

Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:25 am
Posts: 221
DavetheLost wrote:
Somewhere in the book is a note that the Wetware programs from the Intelligence bonus are in addition to the ones granted by Patron Bond. I was just reading the book today and came across that.

Hmm. I guess I'll see if I can find that.

_________________
Purple Planeteers:

Jingles Coinclink, Halfling, hag-hacked into haggis

Nurzual the Faceter – M Jwlr - Wiz - L
S 12 A 8 (-1) S 9 P 11 I 15 (+1) L 10
AC 9 HP 6 Mv 30 Init -1 Ref 0 Fort 0 Will 1
Chalk 1pc, 20 gp Gem, Backpack, 10’ chain, 10 sheets parchment, Kith pouch, small hammer, ray-gun, Rope 50', 5gp 10sp 274 cp
shortsword +0(1d6)
Ch Psn (no MM), Clr Spr 65, Force Manip 81, Rd Mag 12, Spidr Cl 69
Pl.Common (basic)

Snooth Inksplot Scribe RIP under cave-in, a crushing loss

Qort Quiddlegit M Hlr - Cler - N(C?)
S 11 temp 14 (+1) A 11 temp 14 (+1) S 6 (-1) P 5 (-2) I 6 (-1) L 5 (-2)
AC 10 temp 11 HP 8 Mov 30 Init 0 Ref t+1 Fort 0 Will -1
club +0 (1d4+1t) - hand mirror, holy wtr, wtrskin Kith drink 12 oz drunk, 31 cp
-2 Ms fire damage
Det Magic

Brandybland Shoetree F Coblr N
S 10 A 9 S 10 P 8 (-1) I 9 L 9
AC 14 HP 1 Mov 30 Init 0 Ref 0 Fort 0; Will -1
gldtr glaive +0 (1d10) - gldtr ch mail - Fe spike, shoehorn, 48 cp
Prof: dagger


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 31, 2018 5:31 pm 
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MCC page 140: Maximum Number and Level of Wetware Programs That Can Be Learned. The whole page is about wetware in various aspects of rules mechanics.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:55 am 
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DavetheLost wrote:
MCC page 140: Maximum Number and Level of Wetware Programs That Can Be Learned. The whole page is about wetware in various aspects of rules mechanics.

Thanks. I still find that really ambiguous, though. Does it mean a shaman with a 15 intelligence just adds one to the number of "gift" wetware programs his patron provides? If so, what good does a 16 intelligence do you? None of the patrons have a fourth program to give. And in any event, the level 1 shaman can't know the second- and third-level programs anyway, so nobody can start off with more than one program plus Invoke Patron unless the Judge homebrews something.

_________________
Purple Planeteers:

Jingles Coinclink, Halfling, hag-hacked into haggis

Nurzual the Faceter – M Jwlr - Wiz - L
S 12 A 8 (-1) S 9 P 11 I 15 (+1) L 10
AC 9 HP 6 Mv 30 Init -1 Ref 0 Fort 0 Will 1
Chalk 1pc, 20 gp Gem, Backpack, 10’ chain, 10 sheets parchment, Kith pouch, small hammer, ray-gun, Rope 50', 5gp 10sp 274 cp
shortsword +0(1d6)
Ch Psn (no MM), Clr Spr 65, Force Manip 81, Rd Mag 12, Spidr Cl 69
Pl.Common (basic)

Snooth Inksplot Scribe RIP under cave-in, a crushing loss

Qort Quiddlegit M Hlr - Cler - N(C?)
S 11 temp 14 (+1) A 11 temp 14 (+1) S 6 (-1) P 5 (-2) I 6 (-1) L 5 (-2)
AC 10 temp 11 HP 8 Mov 30 Init 0 Ref t+1 Fort 0 Will -1
club +0 (1d4+1t) - hand mirror, holy wtr, wtrskin Kith drink 12 oz drunk, 31 cp
-2 Ms fire damage
Det Magic

Brandybland Shoetree F Coblr N
S 10 A 9 S 10 P 8 (-1) I 9 L 9
AC 14 HP 1 Mov 30 Init 0 Ref 0 Fort 0; Will -1
gldtr glaive +0 (1d10) - gldtr ch mail - Fe spike, shoehorn, 48 cp
Prof: dagger


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:55 am 
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Deft-Handed Cutpurse

Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:25 am
Posts: 221
DavetheLost wrote:
MCC page 140: Maximum Number and Level of Wetware Programs That Can Be Learned. The whole page is about wetware in various aspects of rules mechanics.

Thanks. I still find that really ambiguous, though. Does it mean a shaman with a 15 intelligence just adds one to the number of "gift" wetware programs his patron provides? If so, what good does a 16 intelligence do you? None of the patrons have a fourth program to give. And in any event, the level 1 shaman can't know the second- and third-level programs anyway, so nobody can start off with more than one program plus Invoke Patron unless the Judge homebrews something.

_________________
Purple Planeteers:

Jingles Coinclink, Halfling, hag-hacked into haggis

Nurzual the Faceter – M Jwlr - Wiz - L
S 12 A 8 (-1) S 9 P 11 I 15 (+1) L 10
AC 9 HP 6 Mv 30 Init -1 Ref 0 Fort 0 Will 1
Chalk 1pc, 20 gp Gem, Backpack, 10’ chain, 10 sheets parchment, Kith pouch, small hammer, ray-gun, Rope 50', 5gp 10sp 274 cp
shortsword +0(1d6)
Ch Psn (no MM), Clr Spr 65, Force Manip 81, Rd Mag 12, Spidr Cl 69
Pl.Common (basic)

Snooth Inksplot Scribe RIP under cave-in, a crushing loss

Qort Quiddlegit M Hlr - Cler - N(C?)
S 11 temp 14 (+1) A 11 temp 14 (+1) S 6 (-1) P 5 (-2) I 6 (-1) L 5 (-2)
AC 10 temp 11 HP 8 Mov 30 Init 0 Ref t+1 Fort 0 Will -1
club +0 (1d4+1t) - hand mirror, holy wtr, wtrskin Kith drink 12 oz drunk, 31 cp
-2 Ms fire damage
Det Magic

Brandybland Shoetree F Coblr N
S 10 A 9 S 10 P 8 (-1) I 9 L 9
AC 14 HP 1 Mov 30 Init 0 Ref 0 Fort 0; Will -1
gldtr glaive +0 (1d10) - gldtr ch mail - Fe spike, shoehorn, 48 cp
Prof: dagger


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:49 am 
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Tight-Lipped Warlock
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I'm normally not critical of GG at all but questions about shamen and wetware keep cropping up repeatedly, and the only responses I've seen are from players.

Where are any of the GG designers? And, most damningly, why aren't they posting in the forums on their own web page?!? I see Wampler and others hanging out on Facebook and G+, occasionally answering questions, but you'd think they'd moderate and answer questions in their own forums.


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