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 Post subject: Books that should be in Appendix N
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:28 pm 
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Ill-Fated Peasant

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These are some of my favorite books almost everyone is a must read for a true fantasy fan. But the list is by no means complete. So what are your favorites?

Clive Barker
Imajic

C. Dale Brittain
A Bad Spell in Yurt

Terry Brooks
The Elfstones of Shannara

Steven Brust
Jhereg

Lois McMaster Bujold
The Curse of Chalion

Orson Scott Card
Treason

Robert N. Charrettee
Timespell
Eye of The Serpent
Wizard of Bones

Adrian Cole
A Place Among the Fallen
Throne of fools
The King of Light and Shadows
The Gods in Anger

Glen Cook
The Swordbearer
The Black Company
Shadows Linger
The White rose

Hugh Cook
Wizard War

Rick Cook
Wizard’s Bane

Louise Cooper
The Initiate
The Outcast
The Master

Juanita Coulson
The Death God’s Citadel

Stephen Donaldson
Lord Fouls Bane
The Illearth War
The Power That Preserves
The Wounded land
The One Tree
White Gold Wielder
The Mirror of Her Dreams
A Man Rides Through

Carole Nelson Douglas
Six of Swords
Exiles of the Rynth

Dave Duncan
The Reluctant Swordsman

David Eddings
Pawn of Prophecy
Queen of Sorcery
Magician’s Gambit
Castle of Wizardry
Enchanter’s Endgame

Phyllis Eisenstein
Sorcerer’s Son

David Farland
The Rune Lords

Raymond E. Feist
Magician: Apprentice
Magician: Master

Cheryl J. Franklin
Fire Lord
Fire Get

C. S. Friedman
Black Sun Rising

Neil Gaimen
Neverwhere

Barbara Hambly
Rainbow Abyss
The Magicians of Night
The Darwath Trilogy
The Silent Tower
The Silicon Mage

Neil Hancock
Circle of Light Series

Frank Herbert
Dune
Children of Dune
Dune Messiah
The Godmakers

Robin Hobb
Assassin’s Apprentice
Royal Assassin
Assassin’s Quest
Soldier Son Trilogy

P. C. Hodgel
God Stalk
Dark of the Moon

Oliver Johnson
The Forging of the Shadows

J. Gregory Keyes
The Waterborn
The Blackgod

Ursula Le Guin
Wizard of Earthsea
City of Illusion

C. S. Lewis
The Chronicles of Narnia

Ardath Mayhar
How the Gods Wove in Kyrannon

Dennis L. McKiernan
The Iron Tower Trilogy

Patricia McKillip
The Riddle-Master of Hed
Heir of Sea and Fire
Harpist in the Wind
Od Magic

Michael Reaves
The Shattered World

Jennifer Roberson
Sword Dancer
Shape-Changers

Joel Rosenberg
The Sleeping Dragon
The Sword and the Chain
The Silver Crown
The Heir Apparent

Gary Alan Ruse
Morlac

Sean Russel
The One Kingdom
The Isle of Battle
The Shadow roads

Robert Silverberg
Lord Valentines Castle
At Winters End
Kingdoms of the Wall
The Man in the Maze

Dan Simmons
Hyperion
The Fall of Hyperion

Christopher Stasheff
Her Majesty’s Wizard

Sheri Tepper
Kings Blood Four
Necromancer Nine
Wizards Eleven

Eric Van LustBader
The Sunset Warrior
Shallows of Night
Dai-San

A. E. Van Vogt
The Wizard of Linn

Paula Volsky
The Luck of Relian Kru
The Curse of the Witch Queen
The Sorcerers’s Heir

Karl Edward Wagner
The Bloodstone
Darkness Weaves
Night Winds
Dark Crusade
Death Angels Shadow

Lawrence Watt-Evans
The Lure of the Basilisk
The Seven Altars of Dusarra
The Sword of Bheleu
The Book of Silence
The Misenchanted Sword
With a Single Spell
The Unwilling Warlord

Tad Williams
The Dragonbone Chair
The Stone of Farewell
Return to Green Angel Tower

Paul Edwin Zimmer
The Dark Border

These Authors are mentioned in Appendix N, But these works deserve mention anyway

Lin Carter
Down to a Sunless Sea
The City Outside the World
The Man Who Loved Mars
The Valley Where Time Stood Still
Tower at the Edge of Time
Outworlder

Michael Morcock
The Knight of Swords
The Queen of Swords
The King of Swords
The Bull and the Spear
The Oak and the Ram
The Sword and the Stallion
The Silver Warriors

Happy Reading!!! :D

ADMIN EDIT: Tweaked layout to shorten the post.


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 Post subject: Re: Books that should be in Appendix N
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:26 pm 
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Gene Wolfe: Book of the New Sun tetralogy
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 Post subject: Re: Books that should be in Appendix N
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 6:56 am 
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This is always a "slippery slope" kind of discussion where the list just keeps growing as each poster adds his/her favorites to the list.

To me, Appendix N was always more than "Gary's list of favorite books" but instead represented more of a Hall of Fame of the genre. Gary composed his list in the 1970's, which meant that many of the books had been around for fifty or more years and were still remembered. That makes it more than a "flavor of the month" list and more of a Pantheon of All-Time list.

So I would focus on works from the 1970's and 1980's, asking which books still are popular after 20-30 years. If they don't last that long, they aren't Appendix N worthy.

Just my two cents.

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 Post subject: Re: Books that should be in Appendix N
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:09 am 
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Okay, so I was on the soap box and didn't get to reply to the original post.
neverreflected wrote:
Steven Brust Jhereg

Neil Gaimen Neverwhere

Frank Herbert Dune

Ursula Le Guin Wizard of Earthsea

C. S. Lewis The Chronicles of Narnia

Karl Edward Wagner Bloodstone, Darkness Weaves, Night Winds, Dark Crusade, Death Angel's Shadow

Michael Morcock The Knight of Swords, The Queen of Swords, The King of Swords

I have no idea how C.A. Smith and Karl Edward Wagner got left out of Appendix N, but both would seem to be a clear oversight. The Earthsea Trilogy probably should be in there as well. As you noted, Moorcock is in there but his Corum books aren't specifically mentioned.

Both Neverwhere and Dune are (to me) classic works of fiction. I'm not sure they are "Appendix N" because they aren't really Swords & Sorcery, but they are impressive. Same with the Narnia books -- not at all the classic S&S feel but great books.

Steven Brust is amazing. I read his early books with a passion but after a while they are all starting to feel the same and I don't really keep up anymore. Jhereg could fit the Appendix N criteria.

Most of the other books on your list either I didn't like or haven't heard of before, which doesn't mean that they aren't good books but just that I wouldn't include them in a Hall of Fame book list.

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 Post subject: Re: Books that should be in Appendix N
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:59 am 
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I'm not sure that I agree with Finarvyn about the Hall of Fame aspect of Appendix N. Many of the books on the list were also written in the early '70s and hardly represent books with staying power. (I'd hazard that a number of the books are only read because of Appendix N now.)

I like to think of the list as more of a list of influences on the beginnings of fantasy role-playing.

But I think the important distinction for adding new books to the list is in thinking of books that influence RPGs as opposed to books that were influenced by RPGs. The fantasy genre of novels changed a lot after D&D, and I'd guess that most people who read fantasy have also played an RPG. As the number of gamers as readers increase, novelists (presumably) have to meet the expectations of those readers. I'd guess that's why we see more individual heroes in the Appendix N novels and more "parties" of heroes in later fantasy fiction. (Of course, the influence of the Lord of the Rings in "party-based" fiction can't be overlooked. But I'd argue there's a significant difference in the feel of the party in LotR and in something like Rosenberg's Guardians of the Flame.) Also, as fantasy has become a more mainstream genre, the "weirdness" of a lot of the Appendix N novels has disappeared from more recent fantasy novels, which are often more focused on character development, political intrigue, and explainable magic systems.

I wonder if rather than listing new books as additions to Appendix N, it would be more useful to categorize the traits of the books already in the Appendix, and then people can judge for themselves how their own fiction stands up. (I don't think that being a "non-Appendix N" novel necessarily makes a bad novel. Some of my favorite fantasy fiction is stuff I wouldn't consider Appendix N.)

Here's a couple of criteria that I think apply to most of what's in Appendix N:
1) A central, single protagonist. (In novels with a group, there's a clear distinction between PC and NPC.)
2) Magic that exists, but isn't explained.
3) Strange lands (often with odd names and odder inhabitants)

Of course, folks with more familiarity with Appendix N may have slightly different lists.

-Berc

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 Post subject: Re: Books that should be in Appendix N
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:39 pm 
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My appendix "N" has recently been updated to include:

- Song of Ice and Fire series -- I love the gritty low-magic nature of the world and the solid European medieval mindset
- Malazan, Book of the Fallen series -- gritty world, almost inscrutable magic, and very original races. Steals a lot from Black Company, but who doesn't.

It seems like fantasy fiction has fallen into "my D&D campaign in story form" since the late '80s. Elves, dwarves, etc populating Tolkieny/Greyhawky worlds. Those two series, at least, took a different approach. Malazan clearly originated as rpg campaign stuff, but by DM's that took their game to different places and deeper worlds.

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 Post subject: Re: Books that should be in Appendix N
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 1:05 pm 
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finarvyn wrote:
Both Neverwhere and Dune are (to me) classic works of fiction. I'm not sure they are "Appendix N" because they aren't really Swords & Sorcery, but they are impressive. Same with the Narnia books -- not at all the classic S&S feel but great books.


Well to be honest I wasn't making a true list for appendix N, I was really just putting out a list of books I have always liked. If I were to make a true list it would have to be much different.


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 Post subject: Re: Books that should be in Appendix N
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:16 pm 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer

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Dune would be fine for appendix N, there are plenty of at least sci-fi-ish books on the original list. If Gygax can give an example in the DMG of transporting the party to Tschai from Jack Vance's Planet of Adventure, there would be nothing wrong with tearing it up with sand worms and fremen in my opinion. Lin Carter's Green Star series is pretty sci-fi as well, as is Hiero's Journey. The original appendix N was very eclectic, and GG was getting stuff from all over the place, including aspects of the game like displacer beasts and other stuff from flat-out sci-fi.

It would be neat if DCC has at tip of the hat to sci-fi and D&D with a module in the spirit of S3 or the side jaunts to the Warden from MA. All those original guys would probably be rolling their eyes about not getting any icky robots in a chain mail and unicorn game.


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 Post subject: Re: Books that should be in Appendix N
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 4:54 pm 
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Of the old: a Wizard of Earthsea (and the sequels) by Ursula LeGuin.
My favourite fantasy series ever! Not exactly very pulpy swords & such but I'll take an opputunity to say how good it is whenever it comes around :D

Of the new: The Blade Itself (and sequels) by Joe Abercrombie
Brilliant. And unlike some modern series... He has a completed trilogy already done.
I think I will look back fondly in 20-30 years on these books if I am still around!

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 Post subject: Re: Books that should be in Appendix N
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:52 pm 
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I think Jack Vance's Dying Earth books definitely deserve mention.


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 Post subject: Re: Books that should be in Appendix N
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 8:03 am 
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jeff wrote:
I think Jack Vance's Dying Earth books definitely deserve mention.

Aren't they already part of Appendix N?

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 Post subject: Re: Books that should be in Appendix N
PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2012 12:42 pm 
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Bercilak wrote:
But I think the important distinction for adding new books to the list is in thinking of books that influence RPGs as opposed to books that were influenced by RPGs.
You, sir, are the "caller of the show."

This is probably the most insightful Appendix N comment I've seen in a long time! 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Books that should be in Appendix N
PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:41 pm 
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Clark Ashton Smith to me is a little more appendix N than lovecraft but I think the great Gygax did what most people tend to do and kinda lump poor CAS with HP Lovecraft. That's my 2 cp anyways.


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 Post subject: Re: Books that should be in Appendix N
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 1:35 pm 
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I would not add CS Lewis to the list because they are contemporary with other books Gary did include but for some reason he did not include them.

How about modern Strange Fiction: China Mieville's Perdido Street Station, for example? Strange Fiction attempts to recall the works of Lovecraft with a modern twist. It is certainly a fitting setting for Appendix N adventuring.


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 Post subject: Re: Books that should be in Appendix N
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:00 pm 
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jmucchiello wrote:
I would not add CS Lewis to the list because they are contemporary with other books Gary did include but for some reason he did not include them.
Agreed. I really like CS Lewis (at least his Narnia books; not so much his scifi trilogy) but don't feel like it has that AppN vibe.

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"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own."
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 Post subject: Re: Books that should be in Appendix N
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 12:50 pm 
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RevTurkey wrote:

Of the new: The Blade Itself (and sequels) by Joe Abercrombie


I recently read one his books (outside of the trilogy) - The Heroes. It was very good. Refreshing to read a semi-fantasy book that didn't require a multi-1000 page-book series to support it. Actually, it was about one battle in one town over three or four days. I would love to see authors develop worlds and then write standalone books within that world without the need to connect them all in one long multi-decade ordeal... :)

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 Post subject: Re: Books that should be in Appendix N
PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2012 10:04 am 
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ragboy wrote:
I recently read one his books (outside of the trilogy) - The Heroes. It was very good. Refreshing to read a semi-fantasy book that didn't require a multi-1000 page-book series to support it. Actually, it was about one battle in one town over three or four days. I would love to see authors develop worlds and then write standalone books within that world without the need to connect them all in one long multi-decade ordeal... :)

L. E. Modesitt Jr.'s Recluce series fits that bill (some of his other series are multi-volume books). At most 2 books will take place in the "same" time period spanning 2500+ years. But he is not App N at all. His books are all hero's journeys. And his world building is just color. Yes, if he passes through the same area in different time periods, the city names might have changed but none of it is essential to the hero's journey he happens to be telling at the time.


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 Post subject: Re: Books that should be in Appendix N
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:46 pm 
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Clasrk Ashton Smith not being in Appendix N shocked me as well. If for nothing else he should be in for his Zothique series. It was recommended to me due to its sword & sorcery content. If you have never read it, go out and find it in a used bookstore somewhere. Well worth it.


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 Post subject: Re: Books that should be in Appendix N
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:17 pm 
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clockworkvan wrote:
Clasrk Ashton Smith not being in Appendix N shocked me as well. If for nothing else he should be in for his Zothique series. It was recommended to me due to its sword & sorcery content. If you have never read it, go out and find it in a used bookstore somewhere. Well worth it.

I second that! CAS gets no respect!


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 Post subject: Re: Books that should be in Appendix N
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:21 pm 
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned John Norman's Gor series. All of those slave women and such! The Boris covers are a help too.


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 Post subject: Re: Books that should be in Appendix N
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 1:48 am 
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I would like to submit Michael Chabon's "Gentlemen of the Road" to Appendix N. Light on magic, but high on adventure!

and for people interested in CAS http://eldritchdark.com/

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 Post subject: Re: Books that should be in Appendix N
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:34 am 
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I try, at all cost to avoid anything having to do with Gor. Been around a few Gorians- or whatever they call themselves. Not that the books suck.


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 Post subject: Re: Books that should be in Appendix N
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:38 am 
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Thank you, Caveman. That is a nice site.


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 Post subject: Re: Books that should be in Appendix N
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:33 pm 
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Karaptis wrote:
I'm surprised no one has mentioned John Norman's Gor series. All of those slave women and such! The Boris covers are a help too.
I suspect that the Gor books aren't mentioned much simply because they aren't PC enough and they cause a real divide in terms of whether they are considered to be legit S&S books or just cheap porn. I kind of wish that they would release "sanitized" versions where they could remove a lot of the objectionable material and leave the pulp fantasy stories.

I think that hidden in the dross is a bunch of fun stories in an interesting world. Maybe not Conan in quality, but certainly as good as some of the Gardner Fox stories, Brak the Barbarian, and other pulpy barbarian tales. There is a Priest-Kings story arc, one with the Kurii, and probably others that make for fun fiction. (It's been too long since I read them and I only read the first dozen or so books so I can't comment on the quality of the rest of the series.)

Also, Dave Arneson put several Gor references (tarns, red silk slaves, etc.) in his First Fantasy Campaign book that detailed the original Blackmoor. If that's not DCC or Appendix N worthy, I'm not sure what would qualify!

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 Post subject: Re: Books that should be in Appendix N
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:34 pm 
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clockworkvan wrote:
I try, at all cost to avoid anything having to do with Gor. Been around a few Gorians- or whatever they call themselves. Not that the books suck.
That's the problem -- the Gorean sub-culture that surrounds the books. Many of the people who are part of this admit to having never actually read the books, and they give the whole setting a bad name.

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