How do you convert D&D character class levels to DCC?

[bookish]

I am currently working on comparing the Cleric class from various versions of D&D to DCC Cleric. I am working with AD&D Player's Handbook and AD&D 2e Player's Handbook before I get my copy of 3e from Amazon. I have access to 3.5. Ultimately, I would like to dope out a path from 0 Level to Epic Level equivalents to Divine Levels, but first, I am trying to reverse-engineer which bits of 3.x have been "streamlined," and which bits have been borrowed from earlier versions. It seems, overall, that DCC has weaker attack bonuses, anywhere from roughly 1/3 to 1/2, level dependent, on averaged cleric levels by 2's (AD&D lvl 1-2 averaged and measured against DCC lvl 1).

Is anyone doing this type of work, or have any suggestions? I see that there is at least 1 Epic Level adventure for DCC and want to know how people are getting there, so that I can have a path for players in the future.

Thanks!

[GnomeBoy]

...Is anyone doing this type of work, or have any suggestions? I see that there is at least 1 Epic Level adventure for DCC and want to know how people are getting there, so that I can have a path for players in the future.

Reading between the lines, I think there may be some confusion about the "DCC" label... There are no "Epic" level adventures for the DCC RPG. There is at least one 20th+ Level adventure in the line of DCC modules, but it pre-dates the DCC RPG and is designed for 3.x Edition D&D. Forgive me if I'm misunderstanding what you're getting at, and am telling you stuff you already know...

I'll admit that "Divine Levels" goes right over my head, but I can mention that most folks have found that "other" versions of D&D "convert" to DCC at about a 2:1 ratio — 2 levels of D&D equals about 1 level of DCC RPG. So, an old module designed for 5-6th level characters would generally be suitable for 3rd (maybe 2nd) Level DCC RPG play, with some tweaks, obviously.

[finarvyn]

My rule of thumb (and I haven't tried to do a mathematical analysis of this) is that one DCC RPG level is roughly equal to two 3E levels. In 3E the "epic" tier was level 20+, which would correspond to something like DCC level 10+. I have no idea what "divine" is but would guess it to be 3E 30+ and so I would guess that you'd be looking at something like DCC level 15+.

Okay ... so having said all that, let me further give an opinion. I believe that most RPGs are designed for low-to-middle level characters, and the higher you stretch the levels the more "broken" the game system becomes. This is mostly due to the limitations of the dice type. For example, with a d20 there is some limit of bonus added to the die roll where the dice become irrelevant and the bonus rules the day. This can be counteracted somewhat by higher defense (armor class) but I believe that such games don't work as well at those levels.

AD&D 2E had a wonderful book called "High Level Campaigns" which had some AD&D mechanics in it but was also full of ideas and suggestions as to how to challenge "epic" level characters. I think their base premise was also that at a certain point the dice rolling becomes somewhat obsolete, but it's been a while since I read the book.

So, back to the original question and trying to insert my beliefs into the situations you describe ... I'm not convinced that the DCC RPG would work well at 15th level, but I've never tried it.

[bookish]

Thanks for your responses. Both were helpful. It isn't my intention to take a PC to a god-like level, necessarily. Though it could be fun to try. However, I am trying to dope out for myself what kinds of mechanics I could use to make godly beings for the sake of story-telling and possibly for a kind of world-building side game to run with a new group of players where everyone gets a hand in building their world before exploring it as PCs. Although it's unlikely to take a character's ability stats well beyond 18, the fact that there is a Strength spell that can add points of strength permanently to a character makes abilities beyond the 3d6 roll possible. This is completely conjectural, and it seems that adding strength is highly unlikely even once without a lot of spellburn, but I can see how this spell and others can add flavor and reference points for a deity who was created by his people. With time and sacrifice, and with the aid of a powerful wizard, an adventurer could ascend to conquer a threat to his people, and to become a patron for others. What kinds of relative power might there be for such a being compared to average PCs during various stages of ascension? How might such a patron manifest to test a potential client? Surely not as a NPC with average stats. Just exploring. I will definitely consider the mechanics of the dice and not just relative stats and abilities.

[bookish]

I can see how the very notion defies a lot about what makes DCC about chance and risk, and also flies in the face of odds given for the chance to encounter "An immortal or demi-god- no longer mortal." A population Incidence of "2-3 per epoch" p.359 I wouldn't want a munchkin in my game for the sake of being a badass. I'd want them to role play like their character has, well, chracter.

[Raven_Crowking]

The PC who becomes a patron for others needs the standard tables for invoke patron, patron taint, and spellburn. Stats are no longer important otherwise. That PC becomes, in effect, an NPC power (but a great way to retire a character!). You might ask the player for help in designing the PC as a patron.

And then offer the player a chance to make a new PC who gets to be an avatar of that patron, sent into the world to do his prime's will, and coming with a max patron bond to the old PC.

That's what I would do, personally.

[finarvyn]

Raven_Crowking, as always you have great ideas. I wish I'd thought of the whole avatar-of-patron thing! Excellent!

[Gameogre]

If I was going to convert(I wouldn't) I would divide the D&D level by two.

A 10th level 3.5 Fighter would be a 5th level character.

A 20th level 3.5 character would be a 10th level character in my DCCRPG game.


However, I have asked all my players to just start new characters because DCCRPG is a totally different type of game than 4E/3.5 D&D. It just isn't the same.

Your level 10 Pathfinder Demi-God Hero just might die to goblins in DCCRPG. Better to start fresh than experience the jarring differences and the tears and screaming that would inflict.

[GnomeBoy]

...make a new PC who gets to be an avatar of that patron, sent into the world to do his prime's will...

Sort of the inverse of Van Derdandenklanden (sp?) from early issues of Crawl!, who was a Wizard with his future-self as his Patron.

Also, I've never played high-level DCC, but IIRC comments from those who have suggest that the 2:1 ratio breaks down, and perhaps a 10th Level DCC character is potentially more potent than a 20th Level "D&D" character... That could make an interesting tourney to find out...

[finarvyn]

I've never played high-level DCC, but IIRC comments from those who have suggest that the 2:1 ratio breaks down, and perhaps a 10th Level DCC character is potentially more potent than a 20th Level "D&D" character... That could make an interesting tourney to find out...

The problem is that it would take a lot of playtesting to really get an accurate measure beause an occasional hot streak of the dice (or cold streak) can really mess up a given playtest.

I've tried building some mathematical equations to gauge the power of various characters and I find that (1) spells are a real wild card and hard to judge, and (2) higher level characters have so many options it becomes hard to anticipate choices.

I'm afraid we're probably stuck with the "gut call" but it would be fun to take a band of DCC RPG characters and a band of characters from another edition (AD&D, 3E, whatever) and run them through the same module to see what happens.

[AQuebman]

I've never played high-level DCC, but IIRC comments from those who have suggest that the 2:1 ratio breaks down, and perhaps a 10th Level DCC character is potentially more potent than a 20th Level "D&D" character... That could make an interesting tourney to find out...

The problem is that it would take a lot of playtesting to really get an accurate measure beause an occasional hot streak of the dice (or cold streak) can really mess up a given playtest.

I've tried building some mathematical equations to gauge the power of various characters and I find that (1) spells are a real wild card and hard to judge, and (2) higher level characters have so many options it becomes hard to anticipate choices.

I'm afraid we're probably stuck with the "gut call" but it would be fun to take a band of DCC RPG characters and a band of characters from another edition (AD&D, 3E, whatever) and run them through the same module to see what happens.

Sorry if this is a bit of a thread necro but I found it interesting.

I think the big difference is the random variables that come about in DCC that don't exist in other games. One spell cast or random spell duel in a module could shift the entire world in crazy ways that were never intended with many of these modules. I would say any module could work but it would require a DM ready and willing to run off with his own thing or to vastly change the campaign depending on some of the random craziness that may come about from DCC. That said I would love to see some folks do conversions of some of the classic modules for DCC purposes at least for those of us who are not as good at converting things on the fly.

[finarvyn]

I would love to see some folks do conversions of some of the classic modules for DCC purposes at least for those of us who are not as good at converting things on the fly.

That's an interesting thought. In an ideal world without copyright issues, wouldn't it be neat to have the old TSR monochrome module line converted to DCC? (The "monochromes" are the early AD&D modules, mostly written for OD&D. The G-series, D-series, and a few extras.) Another thought might be that since Goodman Games is reprinting a lot of the old Judges Guild stuff, maybe they could acquire the rights to do those modules with DCC.

Why convert and re-market something that already exists? Maybe it would bring in a few more of the old timers who think that DCC has too many new fangled ideas. Imagine running Tomb of Horrors or the like in an official DCC conversion......

[Weisenwolf]

I would love to see some folks do conversions of some of the classic modules for DCC purposes at least for those of us who are not as good at converting things on the fly.

That's an interesting thought. In an ideal world without copyright issues, wouldn't it be neat to have the old TSR monochrome module line converted to DCC? (The "monochromes" are the early AD&D modules, mostly written for OD&D. The G-series, D-series, and a few extras.) Another thought might be that since Goodman Games is reprinting a lot of the old Judges Guild stuff, maybe they could acquire the rights to do those modules with DCC.

Why convert and re-market something that already exists? Maybe it would bring in a few more of the old timers who think that DCC has too many new fangled ideas. Imagine running Tomb of Horrors or the like in an official DCC conversion......

Surely Goodman Games could convert all their own earlier modules

[Weisenwolf]

I am currently working on comparing the Cleric class from various versions of D&D to DCC Cleric. I am working with AD&D Player's Handbook and AD&D 2e Player's Handbook before I get my copy of 3e from Amazon. I have access to 3.5. Ultimately, I would like to dope out a path from 0 Level to Epic Level equivalents to Divine Levels, but first, I am trying to reverse-engineer which bits of 3.x have been "streamlined," and which bits have been borrowed from earlier versions. It seems, overall, that DCC has weaker attack bonuses, anywhere from roughly 1/3 to 1/2, level dependent, on averaged cleric levels by 2's (AD&D lvl 1-2 averaged and measured against DCC lvl 1).

Is anyone doing this type of work, or have any suggestions? I see that there is at least 1 Epic Level adventure for DCC and want to know how people are getting there, so that I can have a path for players in the future.

Thanks!

I agree with most of the other posters; around a 2:1 ratio but possibly 3:1 for 1st level.

That said I don't think D&D and DCC are particularly compatible from a level point of view.

In DCC it is generally the case that few characters will ever reach 5th level never mind the lofty heights of 10th but in D&D many classes, Magic Users in particular, are still learning their art at 5th level and are only really worth their place in the party as they approach 10th.

By comparison because a 1st Level DCC Wizard has 4 spells and a 50/50 chance of being able to recast each of them they are, in terms of Magical power, at least as useful as a 3rd or perhaps even 4th level D&D magic user (albeit with the HP's of a second level) and they can wield a sword or a bow too.

I always found that B/X began to break down beyond about 16th level and AD&D began to break down beyond about 12th - too many options and too much accumulated wealth & magic items. As soon as a single character can kill a Dragon without breaking a sweat the campaign is over IMHO. I don't think DCC plays out that way; although we have yet to have a character beyone 5th level so I can only speculate........

[Raven_Crowking]

I would love to see some folks do conversions of some of the classic modules for DCC purposes at least for those of us who are not as good at converting things on the fly.

That's an interesting thought. In an ideal world without copyright issues, wouldn't it be neat to have the old TSR monochrome module line converted to DCC? (The "monochromes" are the early AD&D modules, mostly written for OD&D. The G-series, D-series, and a few extras.) Another thought might be that since Goodman Games is reprinting a lot of the old Judges Guild stuff, maybe they could acquire the rights to do those modules with DCC.

Why convert and re-market something that already exists? Maybe it would bring in a few more of the old timers who think that DCC has too many new fangled ideas. Imagine running Tomb of Horrors or the like in an official DCC conversion......

Surely Goodman Games could convert all their own earlier modules

Some earlier modules have been converted, from 3e and 4e. Specifically: Well of the Worm, Curse of the Kingspire, Dragora's Dungeon, and The Tower of the Black Pearl.