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PostPosted: Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:59 pm 
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Hard-Bitten Adventurer

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 6:18 pm
Posts: 139
Hmmm, I'm kinda digging these suggestions, taking my idea of the "simple dwarf" even farther.
How about this version?
The thought is that the player of the dwarf rolls less dice, but always knows the bonus to hit. The bonus is meant to track about the average of a Warrior's Deed roll. Dependability and stability over swingy-ness and awesome Deed-ness.

The Dependable Dwarf
Hit Dice: 1d12
Level Attack Critical Dice Threat Action Dice
1. +1 1d12/III (20) 1d20
2. +2 1d14/III (20) 1d20
3. +2 1d16/III (20) 1d20
4. +3 1d20/IV (20) 1d20
5. +4 1d24/IV (19) 1d20 + d14
Attack Bonus applies to Attack and Damage rolls.
Dwarves are slow. Speed: 20’ Speed is not affected by armor.
Dwarves enjoy at +4 AC bonus with a Round Shield, OR +1d for a 2 handed weapon (ex: War Axe d14)
+2 to Fortitude Saving Throws
Dwarves are legendary Carousers and may CAROUSE without mishap up to CL+Destiny.
Dwarves may smell gold at 100’, and may roll a d24 for gold related Perception checks.
Dwarves are experts in masonry, mining and metallurgy, rolling a d20 in all such situations.
With tools, Dwarves make wondrous things.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:42 am 
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while i dig your hacking here i must say that in my gameplay dwarfs shield bash has come as very useful. i do not know if we do it by the book but i do allow dwarf to score criticals with it on a roll of natural 14. and that kicks ass.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:34 am 
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Hard-Bitten Adventurer
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catseye yellow wrote:
while i dig your hacking here i must say that in my gameplay dwarfs shield bash has come as very useful. i do not know if we do it by the book but i do allow dwarf to score criticals with it on a roll of natural 14. and that kicks ass.

My initial point was not that the shield bash was ineffective, but that you had to (RAW) use a shield for the dwarf to have maximum impact in combat. It forces you to think and use dwarves in a particular way. Similar with (or more so) with halflings and they being much more effective with two weapon fighting. I think these two factors are pretty good ideas, but they really should have been an option for players to choose or not to choose, and more to the point, not feel slightly nerfed when choosing not to implement those modes of fighting.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:29 am 
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Thane wrote:
catseye yellow wrote:
while i dig your hacking here i must say that in my gameplay dwarfs shield bash has come as very useful. i do not know if we do it by the book but i do allow dwarf to score criticals with it on a roll of natural 14. and that kicks ass.

My initial point was not that the shield bash was ineffective, but that you had to (RAW) use a shield for the dwarf to have maximum impact in combat. It forces you to think and use dwarves in a particular way. Similar with (or more so) with halflings and they being much more effective with two weapon fighting. I think these two factors are pretty good ideas, but they really should have been an option for players to choose or not to choose, and more to the point, not feel slightly nerfed when choosing not to implement those modes of fighting.


oh, sorry. i like ideas that i read here. increase in dmg output for 2handed weapons and stuff like that.

btw, our dwarf scored three crits in old gods return and was really effective fighter replacment in company of thieves and halflings.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:56 am 
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Hard-Bitten Adventurer
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catseye yellow wrote:
Thane wrote:
catseye yellow wrote:
while i dig your hacking here i must say that in my gameplay dwarfs shield bash has come as very useful. i do not know if we do it by the book but i do allow dwarf to score criticals with it on a roll of natural 14. and that kicks ass.

My initial point was not that the shield bash was ineffective, but that you had to (RAW) use a shield for the dwarf to have maximum impact in combat. It forces you to think and use dwarves in a particular way. Similar with (or more so) with halflings and they being much more effective with two weapon fighting. I think these two factors are pretty good ideas, but they really should have been an option for players to choose or not to choose, and more to the point, not feel slightly nerfed when choosing not to implement those modes of fighting.


oh, sorry. i like ideas that i read here. increase in dmg output for 2handed weapons and stuff like that.

btw, our dwarf scored three crits in old gods return and was really effective fighter replacment in company of thieves and halflings.

No need to be sorry, I was just commenting on another aspect of the topic is all :)

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:30 am 
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caveman wrote:
Hmmm, I'm kinda digging these suggestions, taking my idea of the "simple dwarf" even farther.
How about this version?
The thought is that the player of the dwarf rolls less dice, but always knows the bonus to hit. The bonus is meant to track about the average of a Warrior's Deed roll. Dependability and stability over swingy-ness and awesome Deed-ness.

The Dependable Dwarf
Hit Dice: 1d12
Level Attack Critical Dice Threat Action Dice
1. +1 1d12/III (20) 1d20
2. +2 1d14/III (20) 1d20
3. +2 1d16/III (20) 1d20
4. +3 1d20/IV (20) 1d20
5. +4 1d24/IV (19) 1d20 + d14
Attack Bonus applies to Attack and Damage rolls.
Dwarves are slow. Speed: 20’ Speed is not affected by armor.
Dwarves enjoy at +4 AC bonus with a Round Shield, OR +1d for a 2 handed weapon (ex: War Axe d14)
+2 to Fortitude Saving Throws
Dwarves are legendary Carousers and may CAROUSE without mishap up to CL+Destiny.
Dwarves may smell gold at 100’, and may roll a d24 for gold related Perception checks.
Dwarves are experts in masonry, mining and metallurgy, rolling a d20 in all such situations.
With tools, Dwarves make wondrous things.


If i understand your correctly, the dwarf would get a fixed +1 bonus at level, +2 at levels 2-3, +3 at level 4, etc...?

This still apppears less than the deed die bonus. 1d3 at level 1 is average of 2. That's for the bonus to attack and damage alone, notwithstanding the main point: loss of the deed itself.

I still think you're nerfing the class significantly by taking away the deed. If you're fine with that premise, don't hesitate to redefine a new class. But your posts suggest that you find that your are balancing the loss of the deed with the new additions to the class.

I've perhaps not emphasized what I feel is most important, enough. Here it is:

Wizards can cast spells. That's cool. They get all sorts of nifty things to do. There's corruption and spellburn to put spice on top of already super cool spells that have increasingly important effects on higher spellcheck results. As a player, the wizard class appeals to me for that reason.

Clerics have spells. That's also cool. Plus, they have the entire disapproval thing that spices their spellcasting. As a player, the cleric class appeals to me for that reason.

Thieves crit often. That's fun. Thieves have lots of special skills. That's really fun in-game. Thieves can burn luck to make important stuff happen when they need it. That's also cool. As a player, the thief class appeals to me for that reason.

Fighters have mighty deeds. They can pull off really fun stunts, pretty regularly. As a player, the fighter class appeals to me for that reason.

Your take on the dward now has... fixed bonuses. What can the player do, in-game, to have fun like the others? By taking away the deed, you're nerfing the numbers, but that the incidental consequence. Most importantly you're removing the one mechanic that makes the class fun to play. As a player, the dwarf class appeals to me for the deed. You can give me d16 hit points at each level and a +5 to hit and damage at level 1, I couldn't care less because I'm not looking to deal tons of damage (although if you nerf my class attack and damage bonuses, I'll be underwhelmed). I want to do cool stuff like the others.

I totally agree with you that it's too bad that the dwarf mechanic copies from the fighter's. I would have liked to see an original mechanic that makes me go wow, like that of the four base classes, and that's different from theirs. (The halfling also has such an original mechanic, even if I'm not personally fond of it, and even if it's more low-key than that of the others.) The same comment goes to the elf.

I think that if you take away the deed die, you need to (1) give signficant fixed bonuses to compensate; but most importantly (2) find a new mechanic that will allow the player to interact with the game world in a fun and constructive way. Of course, that last is very difficult to do. I had a few suggestions in that line in an above post.

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Maledict Brothbreath, level 4 warrior, STR 16 (+2) AGI 7 (-1) STA 12 PER 9 INT 10 LUCK 15 (+1), AC: 16 Refl: +1 Fort: +2 Will: +1; lawful; Armor of the Lion and Lily's Blade.

Brother Sufferus, level 4 cleric, STR 13 (+1) AGI 15 (+1) STA 11 PER 13 (+1) INT 10 LUCK 9, AC: 11 (13 if wounded, 15 if down to half hit points), Refl: +3 Fort: +2 Will: +3, chaotic, Robe of the Faith, Scourge of the Maimed One, Darts of Pain.


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:51 pm 
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Ill-Fated Peasant

Joined: Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:41 pm
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Perhaps the shield bash dice and deed dice can still be rolled, but instead of d3 damage, it's d3 to your AC vs next attack? That keeps the mechanics the same but switches to sturdy defence suiting dwarves. And maintains the extra Deed chance.
Just a thought....


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:17 pm 
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Hard-Bitten Adventurer

Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 6:18 pm
Posts: 139
I've been thinking about Skyscraper's ideas and I begin to see the point. My initial impetus is to remove the double attack feature, because I found it to be an annoyance in play and it requires a fighting style that I don't really associate with dwarves. Looking at it again I agree lowering the Deed Die is a bit too much. It is enough that the Dwarf does not get the same Crit Threat or Initiative Bonus. So, the Dwarf is close, but not QUITE as deadly the Warrior, but also no more complicated. Defensive bonuses and various dwarven fun make up for it.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:30 am 
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Deft-Handed Cutpurse
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Thane wrote:
Dwarf seems to have a rough time when compared to the fighter

Fighter
HPs d12
Better Crit Dice
Faster Crit Table accumulation
Better selection of weapon proficiency
Level added to Initiative

Dwarf
d10 HPs
Better Saves
Sword and Board

But there's the rub, unless you create a dwarf that uses a sword and shield, the Dwarf is a poor relation compared to human fighter

I was considering swapping around the d12 and d10 hit points to better balance the two classes. I realise DCC doesn't cater to game balance as much as more recent editions of D&D do, but the differences between the above two classes are quite marked in my opinion.


I don't have a problem with the Warrior being the best 'Warrior' in the game. I have made shields +2 a/c rather than +1 which as a side effect helps the Dwarf but otherwise I don't see why the Dwarf needs to be made an equivalent in combat since that is all the Warrior can do whilst the Dwarf has other talents. Also you can't choose 'To Dwarf or not to Dwarf' you either are a Dwarf or you are not.

I think the Halfling is the poorest fighting class by far..............


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:41 pm 
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True a Halfling is a poor(er) fighter, but with sneak silently, the ability to crit on a natural 16 when dual-wielding and being a mobile luck battery, makes them one of the most interesting and indispensable classes in the game.

The only balance question I ask myself when we play this game is, "is every character fun and unique?" So far this has almost always been a "yes."


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:27 am 
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NJPDX wrote:
True a Halfling is a poor(er) fighter, but with sneak silently, the ability to crit on a natural 16 when dual-wielding and being a mobile luck battery, makes them one of the most interesting and indispensable classes in the game.

The only balance question I ask myself when we play this game is, "is every character fun and unique?" So far this has almost always been a "yes."


Yea I'm not mad about play balance but I do think the Halfling is particularly weak comparing poorly against both the Warrior/Dwarf as a Fighter and against the Thief as a skills user. The two Weapon thing only really compensates for being confined to D6 weapons, the luck thing is significant and as good as a Thief at 1st level but it doesn't scale up and is something the Halfling has to share with everyone else. The stealth is also not that useful: to use it effectively the Halfling needs to wear light armour which with D6 hit points makes him an even less effective Fighter, it's no good in heavy armour and in actual fact since the class can't backstab hiding and sneaking is not that useful anyway. In reality all Halflings will wield two short swords / Hand Axes and wear the heaviest armour available, no variety and they still won't be very good at anything.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 2:46 am 
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Deft-Handed Cutpurse
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I have a couple of possible solutions:

Flank Attack: A Halfling attacking with surprise (i.e. using hiding/sneaking) from flank or rear doubles his attack bonus and may use the enhanced Dagger damage (like a Thief). NOTE: generally this means about the same plus as a Neutral Thief (the worst of the three at backstab) but as it does not cause an automatic critical and the Halfling cannot use all the Thiefly weapons it certainly does not upstage even a neutral Thief.

Hunt food: Halflings get +1 to attack roll (or more?) when using Bow or Sling

Small Size: add +1 a/c (Surely a Halfling has to be harder to hit; he's 1/4 the size)

Rock pitching: a character using two-weapon fighting can also throw two weapons at a time.

All this means a Halfling can choose to be heavily armoured with a pair of short swords as is the case now or lightly armoured with Daggers for Stealth based flank attacks or an Axe hurling specialist or a Slinger/Bowman or some combination of the above and has a lot more scope especially with his luck talent.

Frankly he's still no Warrior (or Thief) even with the above changes but he is more fun and doesn't detract from any of the other classes in the process


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 03, 2014 5:54 am 
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Deft-Handed Cutpurse
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Weisenwolf wrote:
Small Size: add +1 a/c (Surely a Halfling has to be harder to hit; he's 1/4 the size)



Further to this point a human who is sat down still offers a larger target than a Halfling stood up and yet enjoys the equivalent of a +2 a/c against misslie fire (not melee of course as he cannot move) so surely a Halfling ought to be particularly difficult to hit? in fact following this logic +3 seems pretty reasonable or for a good unique modifier 'Attacking a Halfling' -1die

That could be expanded to other little guys, Kobolds and so on............


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2015 1:08 am 
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I give Dwarves a bonus to hit using Axes in melee on the basis that these are the military equivalent of the hafted tools they use in mining, masonry and so on. Dwarves also engage in the time honoured traditional drinking game of 'Hurl till you hurl' which involves dwarves Hurling hand axes at a target attempting to get closest the bull. The loser downs his drink and the game continues until one of them 'hurls' up his lunch :D so they get the same bonus throwing hand axes at short range too :wink:

Shields are also +2 a/c in my game and Dwarves do not lose any speed wearing 'Chain mail'

Despite the up rated shield I have found that because a dwarf doesn't need to carry a torch and a Warrior does and because the jump from hand Axe to Battle Axe is pretty hefty quite a few Dwarves in my game wield battleaxes and most warriors don't.

NOTE: I say 'quite a few' but actually there are only three in the whole campaign so two actually but you get my point.......I hope......


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:55 pm 
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Gongfarmer

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FLGS: The Soldiery
I kinda like the idea of letting the dwarf roll his hitpoints twice each level and take the better result to help make him heartier without hurting he warrior or giving the dwarf the possibility of having waaay to many hp.


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