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 Post subject: Crawl! New Class Challenge! The Finals Have Begun!
PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 6:24 pm 
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The Polls are CLOSED!

The winners are:

Gnome by sheriffharry https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1E63tmyrjYSSNBbIeUc-m0c8baQgOgN8Z5n9MpO8DHEs&amp
Bard by Troll_Mage https://docs.google.com/document/d/12JtaDTbzIi97x5S_cjIPEdbLnjICGcs1yHA8XEOLVhE/edit#
Ranger by raskal https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1casNxstho56Z6ZtrdLpIRYy-QMh0e9Ilcr21X3hkCro
Paladin by Troll_Mage https://docs.google.com/document/d/1B5hFp4Ku99YCQCysZ3SK2Y11sv_ix6f521Vo9TgPTjE/edit

Congratulations to Troll_Mage for having two(!) winning entries. We'll have to figure out what to do about that.

now I need art...



Check out the submissions!

BARD
Bard by bizarrojoe http://www.goodman-games.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=89498#p89498
Bard by beermotor http://www.goodman-games.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=90017#p90017
Bard by Troll_Mage https://docs.google.com/document/d/12JtaDTbzIi97x5S_cjIPEdbLnjICGcs1yHA8XEOLVhE/edit#

GNOME
Gnome by sheriffharry https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1E63tmyrjYSSNBbIeUc-m0c8baQgOgN8Z5n9MpO8DHEs&amp
Gnome by GnomeBoy https://docs.google.com/document/d/1noYSvQ1aLqalAHnsCrRzVAquuEmsJ_D8pzvycIZksX8/edit
Boki by ragboy https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZTknxl5Tb8fKK_Pi-Lsv-yCgZL5O6jZvsa41JlF7tBE/edit

PALADIN
Paladin by BitHead0023 https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uZVW7ArJm1yIB5rmzTvkx1W6tRoCSe5IhN5GW0dAe-w/edit
Paladin by Troll_Mage https://docs.google.com/document/d/1B5hFp4Ku99YCQCysZ3SK2Y11sv_ix6f521Vo9TgPTjE/edit
Paladin by oncelor http://www.goodman-games.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=90346#p90346
Paladin by claytonian http://www.goodman-games.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=91853#p91853

RANGER
Ranger by raskal https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=1casNxstho56Z6ZtrdLpIRYy-QMh0e9Ilcr21X3hkCro
Ranger by beermotor http://www.goodman-games.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=90019#p90019
Ranger by oncelor http://www.goodman-games.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=91279#p91279
Ranger* by Hoplitenomad http://www.goodman-games.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=91318#p91318

* Pending approval. Please note that Hoplitenomad's submission might not be eligible for this because it's a cherry pick of two other submissions.

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Reverend Dakota Jesus Ultimak, S.S.M.o.t.S.M.S., D.M.

(Dungeon) Master In Chief of Crawl! fanzine. - http://www.crawlfanzine.com/

"[...] there is no doubt that Dungeons and Dragons and its imitators are right out of the pit of hell." - William Schnoebelen, Straight talk on Dungeons & Dragons


Last edited by reverenddak on Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Crawl! New Class Challenge! The Finals!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:30 am 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 11:14 am
Posts: 469
Location: Cube Farm of Alien Geometry
Is the idea to create classes that are balanced in regard to other classes? I would not like any class that makes a player not want to play other classes (like Warrior).

Warrior should always be the best at combat. Maybe a Ranger should equal a warrior in the wilds, but nowhere else. IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: Crawl! New Class Challenge! The Finals!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:35 am 
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These are just going to be optional classes. There's probably a TON of arguments against using them, and I'll fall in that camp I'm sure, but there will of course be people who want to use them. To each his own. As for "balanced" - don't think that's in the Mission Statement but I could be wrong. :-)

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RoM pbp:
Hamun Ry (Wiz 4)
Str 10 Agi 15 (+1) Sta 11 Per 11 Int 17 (+2) Luc 10 (Unholy House). Align: C. AC: 14. HP: 13. Melee +1, Ranged +2. Crit: d8, I. Save: Ref +5, Fort +3, Will +4.
Spells: 1: Choking Cloud, Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic (odd crystal growths), Magic Missile (mirror images), Runic Alphabet (Mortal) (ravenously hungry), Ventriloquism (rain of frogs)
2: Detect Invisible, Levitate (extremely difficult, d14), Mirror Image (20% chance to raise/lower luck by 1d3 points).
Equip: Ring of the Sand Djinn: +2 AC/saves, Invisibility for 1min/spellburn point, or unmake for great, unknown effect. Padded Armor, Longsword, Longbow, quiver w/20 steel-tipped arrows, 10 silver-tipped arrows, backpack, spellbook, quill and ink, sturdy parchment (10 sheets), 5 days rations, high leather boots, belt w/ belt pouch, gray robe, dark gray hooded cloak. Also carries 3 small mechanical toys: wind-up mouse, wooden puzzle cube, small jewelry box that plays a little tune.


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 Post subject: Re: Crawl! New Class Challenge! The Finals!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:35 am 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 6:19 pm
Posts: 528
The class could be balanced by making it less likely to appear (Occupation list)... Or by the class's (or race's) general nature.

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The Mystic Bull: Our new publishing website. Have a submission? PM me.
In the Prison of the Squid Sorcerer: 12 Short Adventures for DCC!
The God-Seed Awakens: 3rd Level Adventure for DCC. New patron, new spells, lots of new monsters and the living weapons of the Empire of Thal!
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 Post subject: Re: Crawl! New Class Challenge! The Finals!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 11:47 am 
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Balance, or lack of, is part of design challenge! Pick your favorite version!

The Polls are UP! Vote once for each class:

Gnome: viewtopic.php?f=74&t=42091
Ranger: viewtopic.php?f=74&t=42093
Bard: viewtopic.php?f=74&t=42092
Paladin: viewtopic.php?f=74&t=42094

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Reverend Dakota Jesus Ultimak, S.S.M.o.t.S.M.S., D.M.

(Dungeon) Master In Chief of Crawl! fanzine. - http://www.crawlfanzine.com/

"[...] there is no doubt that Dungeons and Dragons and its imitators are right out of the pit of hell." - William Schnoebelen, Straight talk on Dungeons & Dragons


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 Post subject: Re: Crawl! New Class Challenge! The Finals Have Begun!
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 2:00 pm 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 6:19 pm
Posts: 528
IMC, I think I'll be adding the "sub-classes" as choices once a character has the XP to reach 6th level. The idea is that these sub-classes wouldn't necessarily change the character's base abilities -- they would continue to level up on their "class chart." The sub-class just adds a couple of unique abilities -- assassination, monk fighting, nature skills, personality-based performance skills, holy smite, and the like.

Thus a 5th level fighter could become:
- Assassin - pretty much anyone can be an assassin...it just means you kill for money.
- Paladin - This would necessitate character development throughout the Fighter's career -- conversion to a religion (maybe bodyguard to the cleric), beginning (and struggling) with adherence to a deity's code, etc.
- Ranger - same here. The fighter's origin and career would have to be taken into account.
- Monk - Historically, warlords retired to "monk-dom" but couldn't resist remaining "in the world." This was especially true in medieval Japan. That's the direction I'd go here. The fighter "takes the robe" and then emerges as a wandering martial monk of some sort.
- Knight -- similar to the paladin... maybe the Fighter has been a squire, man-at-arms, etc to a knight throughout his career. Adherence to a political code differentiates the knight from the paladin.

5th level Thief:
- Assassin - This has been the traditional linkage as far as classes, and DCC already has a very direct link in the Chaotic thief.
- Bard -- Some character development here throughout the thief's career. Acting, music, swindling, etc.
- Monk -- This was a traditional linkage in AD&D, but I'm thinking anyone can "retire" to the Monk class.

Wizard
- Illusionist/Necromancer/Pyromancer/Demonologist -- This already has support in DCC. Maybe needs formalization...probably not.
- Assassin - anyone.
- Monk -- anyone, maybe.
- Alchemist -- This is a class I developed for our C&C game based off of the video game darklands. Uses "recipes" instead of spells, but similar functionality. Wizard would have some character development (instead of a patron, they'd need to be sponsored into the secret order of the alchemists or something). The C&C class is here: http://mysticbull.pbworks.com/w/page/34890177/alchemist

Cleric
- Paladin -- natural progression.
- Monk -- natural progression
- Assassin -- harder connection to make than the others.
- Druid -- would need character development before the cleric could become a true "priest of nature." But, likely, this class is not needed... powers from gods could make "druids" easily enough.

Anyway. I'll likely do something like this with additional classes. The demi-human races could likewise take any of these, including the base human classes (stripped down a bit). So, you could get a halfling with a full set of thieves' skills, or an elf that can invoke the elven gods...etc.

_________________
AKA Paul Wolfe
The Mystic Bull: Our new publishing website. Have a submission? PM me.
In the Prison of the Squid Sorcerer: 12 Short Adventures for DCC!
The God-Seed Awakens: 3rd Level Adventure for DCC. New patron, new spells, lots of new monsters and the living weapons of the Empire of Thal!
My Gamer Profile


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 Post subject: Re: Crawl! New Class Challenge! The Finals Have Begun!
PostPosted: Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:13 pm 
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Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 9:39 pm
Posts: 85
Location: Transylvania, PA
I really enjoyed looking over the class challenges over the past few days, and I'm excited to see the turn out as more forum members cast their votes for their favorite take on Bard, Gnome, Paladin and Ranger.

I'd like to read about how some playtesting goes in local games around our community as many writers wrote that some tweaking and revision may be appropriate, and from there maybe we could look to see our favorite classes reloaded into an additional Crawl! zine because no matter what there is bound to be some insights made with hindsight.

I think it might even be nice to see if some ideas could be shared between writers who had great ideas but didn't get the votes and those classes that were chosen. Because as anyone who goes to vote for the Finals will discover that it's not an easy choice between one rendition and another. (unless of course you are one of the finalists, of course! !~haha :wink: )

Really if each of the writers for this challenge were able to sit down in the same room and hash out ideas, exchange thoughts, and reflect from one person's perspective to another in the rapid interchange that personal conversation allows, I think we'd find some really terrific creations to introduce to the DCC RPG. (I like to believe that electronic conferences that feature face to face technology may be something that becomes more prevalent in the future for industries like our own for reasons like this.)

And lastly I want to thank each of the writers for their contributions, it's very telling that there was a great deal of thought and energy that went into much of what I read. It's typically a pleasing experience to review something that you can tell someone else is as passionate about something, which you yourself are as well. 8)

If you haven't voted yet, what are you waiting for? Check out the classes contributed by your fellow DCC enthusiasts, and pick your favorite one for each class!
To the top of the page: http://www.goodman-games.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=42312


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 Post subject: Re: Crawl! New Class Challenge! The Finals Have Begun!
PostPosted: Tue Dec 25, 2012 2:02 pm 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer

Joined: Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:13 pm
Posts: 22
Location: New Jersey, US
I'm a huge fan of the D&D Ranger class, but I have to say, I am a bit put off by the uncanny similarity in DCC. In accordance to the Appendix N flavor, I do think there are a lot of things about the D&D3+ Ranger that simply aren't sensible in DCC. For example, favored enemies and dual-weilding - how does a human farmer whose never seen a monster choose a favored enemy, and why does being a protector of the woods enable you to be a dual-wielding weapon master?

I think some serious thought should go into the cross-examination of the traditional barbarian and ranger classes, entwined with race-sensibility, before jumping the gun on a ranger class like the winning example. Humans, with their short life-spans and primarily agricultural livelihoods, are not prime candidates for the "protector of the forests" mentality that comes along with the ranger, and dual-wielding isn't necessarily something that goes along with being a ranger.

I'd like to see the ranger class tied in to the Barbarian class, and applied specifically to Wild/Wood Elves. For example, it makes sense that a High elf or Eladrin (or in DCC terms, "elves who dwell on ancient cloud cities") would progress as a Wizard/Warrior hybrid, but a forest elf (wild elf) is more likely to have a Barbarian/Ranger-like progression. It's highly likely a forest elf has encountered many a monstrous humanoids, in territorial bouts with tribes of orcs/goblins, giant and Ettin, trolls, etc, and this would justify the Favored Enemy. They are also much more aggressive and less likely to wear heavy armor, which would make them candidates for dual-wielding (preferring to attack twice and move, rather than act as a meatshield like a Dwarf with a large/tower shield). I keep pushing the Barbarian thing, too, because the wild elf would be more likely to "rage" or lose themselves.

Just my two cents, but I would definitely envision the Elf being segmented into variations on High Elf and Forest Elf, where the High Elf would just be the traditional DCC Elf "class", but the Forest Elf would have a separate progression with more of a Ranger/barbarian hybrid. My reasoning behind making this class exclusive to the Elf is that with their long lives, they have the ability to be attentive to nature - humans come and go, going about their business of farming, advancing technology, building cities, and mostly harming nature without living lives long enough to witness the aftermath.


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 Post subject: Re: Crawl! New Class Challenge! The Finals Have Begun!
PostPosted: Sun May 19, 2013 2:34 pm 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer

Joined: Sun May 19, 2013 11:08 am
Posts: 38
modemaus wrote:
I'm a huge fan of the D&D Ranger class, but I have to say, I am a bit put off by the uncanny similarity in DCC. In accordance to the Appendix N flavor, I do think there are a lot of things about the D&D3+ Ranger that simply aren't sensible in DCC. For example, favored enemies and dual-weilding - how does a human farmer whose never seen a monster choose a favored enemy, and why does being a protector of the woods enable you to be a dual-wielding weapon master?

I think some serious thought should go into the cross-examination of the traditional barbarian and ranger classes, entwined with race-sensibility, before jumping the gun on a ranger class like the winning example. Humans, with their short life-spans and primarily agricultural livelihoods, are not prime candidates for the "protector of the forests" mentality that comes along with the ranger, and dual-wielding isn't necessarily something that goes along with being a ranger.

I'd like to see the ranger class tied in to the Barbarian class, and applied specifically to Wild/Wood Elves. For example, it makes sense that a High elf or Eladrin (or in DCC terms, "elves who dwell on ancient cloud cities") would progress as a Wizard/Warrior hybrid, but a forest elf (wild elf) is more likely to have a Barbarian/Ranger-like progression. It's highly likely a forest elf has encountered many a monstrous humanoids, in territorial bouts with tribes of orcs/goblins, giant and Ettin, trolls, etc, and this would justify the Favored Enemy. They are also much more aggressive and less likely to wear heavy armor, which would make them candidates for dual-wielding (preferring to attack twice and move, rather than act as a meatshield like a Dwarf with a large/tower shield). I keep pushing the Barbarian thing, too, because the wild elf would be more likely to "rage" or lose themselves.

Just my two cents, but I would definitely envision the Elf being segmented into variations on High Elf and Forest Elf, where the High Elf would just be the traditional DCC Elf "class", but the Forest Elf would have a separate progression with more of a Ranger/barbarian hybrid. My reasoning behind making this class exclusive to the Elf is that with their long lives, they have the ability to be attentive to nature - humans come and go, going about their business of farming, advancing technology, building cities, and mostly harming nature without living lives long enough to witness the aftermath.


I second this line of thinking. A neutral human warrior with an occupation of animal trainer, smuggler, herbalist, herder or hunter could easily be played as a "Ranger". I do not see the need for the specific Tolkien/Gygax derived class. A chaotic human warrior could be considered a barbarian, depending on occupation. There is already every reason in DCC to play a human.

It's the demi-humans that have been pointed out as irrelevant, and partly due to a lack of choice after the funnel. Giving each demi-human 3 classes to choose from suddenly makes them worth rolling.


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