Goodman Games

I've a question concerning this spell.
Isn't too much powerful?
You can paralyze (hold) every sentient being that means basically everything from humanoid to slimes, undead or dragon. There is not even need that the target understand the language spoken as it works also on animals
So basically it can works as good as hold person, hold undead, hold animal and hold monster at the same time.
It seems too much powerful to me.
How do you manage it?

Lordpiovra wrote:I've a question concerning this spell.
Isn't too much powerful?

Every spell can be powerful in DCC RPG. Every spell can be weak in DCC RPG. Every spell can f*ck up either the target, or the caster for days or a lifetime in DCC RPG.

Lordpiovra wrote:You can paralyze (hold) every sentient being...

Unless they misinterpret the command. For example, I would hold out something if I heard that. Freeze might be better, unless it's against a frost wizard.

Lordpiovra wrote:...that means basically everything from humanoid to slimes, undead or dragon. There is not even need that the target understand the language spoken as it works also on animals

Undead are usually immune to sleep, charm, and hold spells. Dragons usually have good saving throws. I don't see any problem in a mental spell being effective on animals or slimes.

Lordpiovra wrote:So basically it can works as good as hold person, hold undead, hold animal and hold monster at the same time.

Again, no hold undead. The rest is true, but such versatility and powerful effects are also true for Charm Person, Sleep, Scare. This is a feature, not a bug. Casters get quite few spells in DCC RPG, and the spells already eat one or two pages each, so it's better to make them more general. Who would want to waste space and spell slots for seperate Hold, Charm spells per creature type? Especially in DCC RPG, where it's advised to come up with new and unknown creatures every time. Hold Undead or Hold Animal might be useless for several adventures, and you can't sit down every morning and change your spell repertoire á la D&D, you only have what you've learned at level up - if a bad mercurial magic roll already didn't make it near-useless already.

Lordpiovra wrote:It seems too much powerful to me.
How do you manage it?

Sure, it can be powerful. If the spellcaster rolls well, or he spellburns some, and the target is not immune to the effect and fails the saving throw... Truth to be told, I've found an amped up magic missile far more powerful. A wizard in my campaign usually did a massive spellburn at every major enemy and killed them with a single blast. Then the rest of the party carried around him and took care of his weakened, useless body for days. Good times!

Undead are usually immune to sleep, charm, and hold spells

If I am allowed to digress, what is the source of this statement?

Immunity to paralysis is the only one that I was able to find.
According to DCC RPG Rules Errata: "Un-dead are immune tot he paralysis spell (not hold)"

On the opposite, concerning charm spell apparently:
"Wizards can attempt this spell on monsters and un-dead with a -2 check penalty and attempt to affect outsiders and demons with a -4 check penalty".

No specific information in the description of Sleep spell.

From my point of view, if an Un-dead is immune to Paralysis it's because he is just puppet without a functioning nervous system but, for this same reason, it should be also immune to Sleep (not specified so, I have to assume they are not immune).

But it should be the same logic of a Slime that should not be possible to affect by the "Word of Command" spell: I don't think a Slime can hear in a first instance.

At the end of the day, perhaps, each Judge may decide how to handle this.
However, it would be great to get an official clarification about this or, at least, understand how everybody is managing these issues.

Lordpiovra wrote:

Undead are usually immune to sleep, charm, and hold spells

If I am allowed to digress, what is the source of this statement?

Check out the monster descriptions in bestiary for ghouls, mummies, shadows, skeletons, zombies.

I'm okay with it, chiefly because it's a cleric spell - no spellburn to semi-regularly launch the spellcheck into the 24+ results.

I'd actually allow it to work on undead. If a cleric can use a symbol of their god to turn such creatures, it just doesn't make sense (to me, anyway) that they can ignore (quoting from the spell's description) the "commanding will of (the cleric's) deity" without even making a save.

That said, I see where Ravenheart is coming from. Each un-dead description mentions that they are immune to "sleep, charm, & paralysis spells, as well as other mental effects".

Re: dragons & slimes*: Dragons shouldn't have much to fear because of their afore-mentioned high saves (avg dragon = +5 and up), plus many of them can spell duel. Slimes, I'd agree that they should probably be exempt due to being incapable of hearing, but I'd likely rule in the players' favor on that.

*Worst fantasy heartbreaker ever.

Rick wrote:If a cleric can use a symbol of their god to turn such creatures, it just doesn't make sense (to me, anyway) that they can ignore (quoting from the spell's description) the "commanding will of (the cleric's) deity" without even making a save.

Of course, Turning is an effect specifically about "You are unclean in the eyes of Crom", directed against a specific set of creatures — whereas the spell is a more general "Hey, all y'all, do what my boy says, k?".

But I totally get where you're coming from.


— Oh, and when you launch that Kickstarter for Dragons & Slimes, just remember to post about it here so I can get in on it.

I am a newbie but it seems to me that every character is quite powerful, and I really like that!
Generally speaking, I think that there is not a too powerful spell, also because there is always the chance to get negative effects on you or your party. Further, the more the cleric uses the same spell the harder will be to cast it (because we can statistically expect a percentage of failures).

To cut to the chase, if you are wondering how to manage a powerful spell, I would answer with a challenging quest (e.g. modulating the number of monsters encountered).

Finally, considering that with a good roll it is possible that the word of command effects last for many rounds, turns or even days, I would raise another question: in case the effects of a previously cast word of command are still in progress, what happen if the same cleric casts another word of command? The latter word of command dispels the effects of the former one or the effects of multiple word of commands can coexist at the same time?

I would address that question to 2 different scenarios:
1) the words of command are addressed to different targets;
2) the words of command are addressed to the same target but are not contrasting each other: for instance you can command to "jump" and then to "clap hands" but not to "freeze" and then to "walk away"

Lordpiovra wrote:I've a question concerning this spell.
Isn't too much powerful?
You can paralyze (hold) every sentient being that means basically everything from humanoid to slimes, undead or dragon. There is not even need that the target understand the language spoken as it works also on animals
So basically it can works as good as hold person, hold undead, hold animal and hold monster at the same time.
It seems too much powerful to me.
How do you manage it?

If memory serves under the 'General' tab it states 'creatures hearing the word are bound to obey' so anything without functioning ears will be immune which is all your slimes, most undead, deaf people (or those wearing ear muffs ) and so on, all immune. This could even include creatures who are paying you no heed or even those who don't hear the word of command because of the ambient noise, combat, waterfall and so on. Also there is a saving throw. Also you only get one word of command and that has to be 'interpreted' within the creatures normal thought processes, can be misinterpreted and if it is contrary to the creatures natural instinct it gets another save at +4 and I would argue, for example, that there are many creature to whom an order to 'retreat' would be contrary to their nature. And you can't paralyse anything, 'Halt' is about the best you will get (Freeze is a colloquialism and the creature may either have no idea what you mean or conclude it is unable to freeze itself and ignore this command as against it’s nature). Also the spell does not state ‘and do nothing else’ so doesn't prevent them from defending themselves or shooting you with a bow and at 12-13 (An decent result for a 1st level Cleric) they are only obliged to 'Halt' for 10 seconds, one round only! Most of the higher results just increase range and duration of command, you still only get a one word command and they still get the same save.

An example for comparison: 'Paralysis' requires you touch your opponent, they get a save (only one) but it works on any creature unless specifically immune to Paralysis and 12-13 is 10 to 60 seconds, much better, enough time to hack it to bits (And it can't fight back ) or run away. Also the scaled results include having paralysing touch for several rounds, automatic, no save paralysis, paralysing with sling stones and so on.

Hold spells have their pros and cons too; longer duration being one of the pros, splitting the targets into three groups being a con.

Command is a decent spell but it can't replace Paralysis or Hold; they all have their place IMHO

Lordpiovra wrote:I've a question concerning this spell.
Isn't too much powerful?
You can paralyze (hold) every sentient being that means basically everything from humanoid to slimes, undead or dragon. There is not even need that the target understand the language spoken as it works also on animals
So basically it can works as good as hold person, hold undead, hold animal and hold monster at the same time.
It seems too much powerful to me.
How do you manage it?

That's too much powerful! The spell can't return an undead creature to life. A creature that has died within the last minute ... returns to life with 1 hit point.