Spell burn to regain spells

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Rostranor
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Spell burn to regain spells

Post by Rostranor » Wed May 01, 2013 9:05 am

So I was reviewing the spell burn rules today.

Pg108 "If a wizard expends a lost spell's level in ability score points, he can cast the spell as if he still had it."

So does the wizard again regain the spell as if he had not lost it for the day or are you guys ruling that the wizard or elf must spell burn each time they desire to cast it until the next day and the spell is regained?

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Re: Spell burn to regain spells

Post by oncelor » Wed May 01, 2013 9:42 pm

We play that he has to pay the cost each time he casts a lost spell.

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Re: Spell burn to regain spells

Post by GnomeBoy » Thu May 02, 2013 7:44 am

Yeah, I think the 'as if' part of that line is the important part -- it doesn't give them the spell back, they can just cast it as if they still had it.

Wanna cast it yet again? Then you've got to spellburn again, too.
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Skyscraper
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Re: Spell burn to regain spells

Post by Skyscraper » Thu May 02, 2013 7:45 am

Good clarification, thank you for this.
Maledict Brothbreath, level 4 warrior, STR 16 (+2) AGI 7 (-1) STA 12 PER 9 INT 10 LUCK 15 (+1), AC: 16 Refl: +1 Fort: +2 Will: +1; lawful; Armor of the Lion and Lily's Blade.

Brother Sufferus, level 4 cleric, STR 13 (+1) AGI 15 (+1) STA 11 PER 13 (+1) INT 10 LUCK 9, AC: 11 (13 if wounded, 15 if down to half hit points), Refl: +3 Fort: +2 Will: +3, chaotic, Robe of the Faith, Scourge of the Maimed One, Darts of Pain.

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Re: Spell burn to regain spells

Post by Disemvowel » Sat May 11, 2013 7:48 am

GnomeBoy wrote:Yeah, I think the 'as if' part of that line is the important part -- it doesn't give them the spell back, they can just cast it as if they still had it.

Wanna cast it yet again? Then you've got to spellburn again, too.
That is not implied at all; as if meaning as if the spell were un-cast for the day, meaning they lose it only on a fail.

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Skyscraper
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Re: Spell burn to regain spells

Post by Skyscraper » Mon May 13, 2013 12:35 pm

Disemvowel wrote:
GnomeBoy wrote:Yeah, I think the 'as if' part of that line is the important part -- it doesn't give them the spell back, they can just cast it as if they still had it.

Wanna cast it yet again? Then you've got to spellburn again, too.
That is not implied at all; as if meaning as if the spell were un-cast for the day, meaning they lose it only on a fail.
Not that I want to sway one way then the other, but he has a point :)

"...as if they still had it" suggests that they can cast it as many times as they want until the casting fails.
Maledict Brothbreath, level 4 warrior, STR 16 (+2) AGI 7 (-1) STA 12 PER 9 INT 10 LUCK 15 (+1), AC: 16 Refl: +1 Fort: +2 Will: +1; lawful; Armor of the Lion and Lily's Blade.

Brother Sufferus, level 4 cleric, STR 13 (+1) AGI 15 (+1) STA 11 PER 13 (+1) INT 10 LUCK 9, AC: 11 (13 if wounded, 15 if down to half hit points), Refl: +3 Fort: +2 Will: +3, chaotic, Robe of the Faith, Scourge of the Maimed One, Darts of Pain.

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Re: Spell burn to regain spells

Post by Gameogre » Mon May 13, 2013 1:07 pm

I agree that it reads like it can be cast until failed ect again.

That said the dang Wizards are running amok and should be slammed with a thick book at every available opportunity!

My party wizard seems to roll 18-20 + her considerable bonus all the dang time.

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Re: Spell burn to regain spells

Post by Skyscraper » Mon May 13, 2013 2:13 pm

Gameogre wrote:I agree that it reads like it can be cast until failed ect again.

That said the dang Wizards are running amok and should be slammed with a thick book at every available opportunity!

My party wizard seems to roll 18-20 + her considerable bonus all the dang time.
The DCC book is pretty thick and hefty.

Just saying.
Maledict Brothbreath, level 4 warrior, STR 16 (+2) AGI 7 (-1) STA 12 PER 9 INT 10 LUCK 15 (+1), AC: 16 Refl: +1 Fort: +2 Will: +1; lawful; Armor of the Lion and Lily's Blade.

Brother Sufferus, level 4 cleric, STR 13 (+1) AGI 15 (+1) STA 11 PER 13 (+1) INT 10 LUCK 9, AC: 11 (13 if wounded, 15 if down to half hit points), Refl: +3 Fort: +2 Will: +3, chaotic, Robe of the Faith, Scourge of the Maimed One, Darts of Pain.

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Re: Spell burn to regain spells

Post by Disemvowel » Mon May 13, 2013 4:58 pm

Skyscraper wrote:
Gameogre wrote:I agree that it reads like it can be cast until failed ect again.

That said the dang Wizards are running amok and should be slammed with a thick book at every available opportunity!

My party wizard seems to roll 18-20 + her considerable bonus all the dang time.
The DCC book is pretty thick and hefty.

Just saying.
And it probably rolls on the Warrior 5th level table

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Re: Spell burn to regain spells

Post by Rostranor » Mon May 13, 2013 8:11 pm

Well in my group we have tossed this reading of the rules around a little bit more. I do think that it can be interpreted that the spell caster has to expand the ability points each time as its worded. However, for the average spellcaster at low levels the chance of failing a spell cast is still pretty high and after burning attributes to get one or two spells back their ability to actually participate in combat or other functions decreases rapidly.

So after deliberating some more on it, I decided that the spell is returned to the caster with the full ability to recast. But may the gods save any spell lobber that looks to a patron to save them....

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Re: Spell burn to regain spells

Post by GnomeBoy » Wed May 15, 2013 3:06 pm

Disemvowel wrote:
GnomeBoy wrote:Yeah, I think the 'as if' part of that line is the important part -- it doesn't give them the spell back, they can just cast it as if they still had it.

Wanna cast it yet again? Then you've got to spellburn again, too.
That is not implied at all; as if meaning as if the spell were un-cast for the day, meaning they lose it only on a fail.
Fair enough opinion.

But I read the word 'cast' as a single use of the spell. The 'you get it back for all day' version, I'd expect to see written in the rules as 'you can undo the loss of a spell on a 1 by spending the spell's level in ability points' or some such. Certainly that'd be a clearer statement of that intent.

I'm going to stand by my interpretation, for what it's worth. "As if they still had it" is not "they get it back".
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Kuruz, Mendicant, N • AC 8, 4 hp • R-1, F0, W0 • S9 A8 S9 P11 I16 L8
Zend, Grave Digger, L • AC 9, 3 hp • R-1, F0, W1 • S14 A6 S9 P13 I13 L6
Mercer, Outlaw, N • AC 12, 2 hp • R0, F-1, W1 • S7 A9 S6 P13 I8 L13
Dejah, Ropemaker, C • AC 10, 2 hp • R0, F1, W-1 • S8 A12 S15 P7 I11 L7

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Re: Spell burn to regain spells

Post by Skyscraper » Thu May 16, 2013 7:09 am

GnomeBoy wrote: Fair enough opinion.

But I read the word 'cast' as a single use of the spell. The 'you get it back for all day' version, I'd expect to see written in the rules as 'you can undo the loss of a spell on a 1 by spending the spell's level in ability points' or some such. Certainly that'd be a clearer statement of that intent.

I'm going to stand by my interpretation, for what it's worth. "As if they still had it" is not "they get it back".
I agree that both interpretations appear reasonably possible from the short text quoted in this thread. However, "as if he still had it" seems like a useless addition to the sentence if the spell can be cast a single time and then it becomes lost. Either he can cast the spell, or he can't. On the other hand, it becomes a useful addition if the intent is to allow the spell to be cast "as usual", i.e. the wizard can cast it until he fails.

I think if the intent was that he could cast it a single time, the "as if he still had it" part would have been omitted and the rule would have read something like this, with the portions in parentheses probably being optional:

"If a wizard expends a lost spell's level in ability score points, he can (re)cast the spell (once, one time, a single time)".

So I would agree with Disemvowel here.

This being said, not a big dead in any event.
Maledict Brothbreath, level 4 warrior, STR 16 (+2) AGI 7 (-1) STA 12 PER 9 INT 10 LUCK 15 (+1), AC: 16 Refl: +1 Fort: +2 Will: +1; lawful; Armor of the Lion and Lily's Blade.

Brother Sufferus, level 4 cleric, STR 13 (+1) AGI 15 (+1) STA 11 PER 13 (+1) INT 10 LUCK 9, AC: 11 (13 if wounded, 15 if down to half hit points), Refl: +3 Fort: +2 Will: +3, chaotic, Robe of the Faith, Scourge of the Maimed One, Darts of Pain.

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Re: Spell burn to regain spells

Post by Kizarvexius » Tue Sep 16, 2014 6:37 am

Hi folks -
On first reading I'm in the camp that says "regain as if you still had it" means you only lose the spell again by a bad roll on the table. The operative word of the paragraph header is REGAIN "Regaining spells via spellburn" which means to get again; recover according to the dictionary.

However I could be swayed the other way by looking at the spirit of other rules in the game. For example burning luck for a single roll is a pretty "steep" price so I'd say the steep price of a spellburn per recast also makes sense.

Is there anything official on the subject?

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Re: Spell burn to regain spells

Post by Raven_Crowking » Tue Sep 16, 2014 6:46 am

Don't know about official, but I am also of the "1 spellburn = 1 attempt to recast" school of thought.
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Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.

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Re: Spell burn to regain spells

Post by Pesky » Tue Sep 16, 2014 9:11 pm

Raven_Crowking wrote:Don't know about official, but I am also of the "1 spellburn = 1 attempt to recast" school of thought.
As am I. It reinforces the severity of magic, and makes sure that if a caster is going to somehow twist fate to regain that tentative grip on the arcane forces that he had lost, then he had better make it count.
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Re: Spell burn to regain spells

Post by Doug Kovacs » Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:18 am

1 point of spell burn = one recasting of a lost spell

This is how I run all online games, home games and con games.

. I see how it can interrupted as getting the spell back entirely , but that makes wizards a lot more powerful in the long run. Using the later system in a short adventure, a wizard , even at first level is likely never to lose any spells that can't easily be retrieved.
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Re: Spell burn to regain spells

Post by jozxyqk » Fri Sep 19, 2014 10:15 am

I agree with those who have concluded that the text is ambiguous.

Count me in the "one burn, one recast" camp as well.

I've got a fourth level wizard in my campaign. Magic missile is pretty devastating and he rarely loses it (I think he has +6 (+4 level, +2 Int) on casting checks, so only loses it on a roll of 1-5). If a single point of spellburn were enough to bring it back until lost, those magic missiles would never stop!

Then again, I guess I like the game a little on the "danger" side. I've eliminated by house rule the rule that permits a PC to burn luck to avoid corruption.

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Re: Spell burn to regain spells

Post by atlascott » Fri Dec 05, 2014 8:18 pm

I am in the "one cast per spellburn" camp.

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