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 Post subject: Spell Formatting
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 7:26 am 
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Wild-Eyed Zealot

Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2011 5:50 am
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So far my only disappointment with the final rules is the formatting of the spells. I really liked the way the sample spell (flaming hands) was released. It is contained to one page with no other spells on it and even had a nice piece of art.

It would be nice if each spell was contained to one page that only had that spell on it. That would make it easier to print out specific spell pages to make a spell book for each caster. But I understand page limitations probably dictated the way things ended up and in the end it isn’t a big deal, but still it would have been nice. A supplementary PDF of just the spells formatted this way would fix this.


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 Post subject: Re: Spell Formatting
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:14 am 
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Chaos-Summoning Sorcerer
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I was a bit disappointed with spell formatting. It would have been nice if different spell descriptions don't share pages. Now my players can't printed their spells out and create their own little grimoires without additional tinkering.

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 Post subject: Re: Spell Formatting
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:14 am 
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Mighty-Thewed Reaver
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That's what they make pens and 3x5 cards for! Make those players write the spells down, you're the poor sap who has to come up with the adventure not to mention preparing for every session.


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 Post subject: Re: Spell Formatting
PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2012 10:59 am 
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Deft-Handed Cutpurse
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Maybe this is something Goodman Games might sell us in future?

A grimoire with individual pages (and art to fill gaps)?
One for Wizards and Elves (loads more spells from the 716 known)?
One for Clerics with expanded information and spells for each?

I am not knocking the Core Rulebook though, it is great. The formatting is a tad frustrating when you want to print out the spells for a player that they have but I am not complaining, the game is just too darn fantastic to get upset by that.

I think my answer will be to maybe print out the first two levels of spells for players and then anything above that they will have to suffer and struggle to acquire as the quest rules suggest etc. In fact I am not going to let my players read ANYTHING except the class descriptions and those first couple of spell levels and those only to help sell them on the system. I want to surprise them! I want to see them wriggle when they roll corruption or diety disapproval. I want their jaw to drop to the floor when they get their arm bitten off by a beastie :D

I want them to get a new spell and have no idea what will happen when they make a good or bad casting roll....

Now I think about it.... I might keep all the spells secret and make them learn them throughout play.

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 Post subject: Re: Spell Formatting
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:06 am 
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Chaos-Summoning Sorcerer

Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:28 am
Posts: 779
RevTurkey wrote:
I am not knocking the Core Rulebook though, it is great. The formatting is a tad frustrating when you want to print out the spells for a player that they have but I am not complaining, the game is just too darn fantastic to get upset by that.


If you have the PDF, doesn't copy/paste work?


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 Post subject: Re: Spell Formatting
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 2:30 am 
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Deft-Handed Cutpurse
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Yes of course you could cut & paste :D I don't have any pdf editing software though.
I always found copying text and pasting it in a word processor from a pdf messes up the tables etc...maybe I need to learn how to you my computer better?
Anyway, I used to write this stuff out by hand so I am not complaining.

I have decided not to let my players see anything other than the class description choices,so printing out the pages for them is a non-issue now. Not even the 0-level Luck & Occupation tables. Boy are they in for a shock when they cast spells! This is going to be fun :D

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 Post subject: Re: Spell Formatting
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:58 am 
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Cold-Hearted Immortal

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I've tried different solutions for my home and con games. What has worked best so far is printing out the entire section and making the spellcaster a binder of spells ... their own grimoire. I did this for GaryCon and it seemed to work pretty well. Although if you can pull off the "you have no idea what the spell will do" blind casting ... then that is just super cool.

//H

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 Post subject: Re: Spell Formatting
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:59 am 
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RevTurkey wrote:
I have decided not to let my players see anything other than the class description choices,so printing out the pages for them is a non-issue now. Not even the 0-level Luck & Occupation tables. Boy are they in for a shock when they cast spells! This is going to be fun :D


That's awesome. I envy your players. What a great time!

//H

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 Post subject: Re: Spell Formatting
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 6:27 pm 
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fjw70 wrote:
It would be nice if each spell was contained to one page that only had that spell on it. That would make it easier to print out specific spell pages to make a spell book for each caster.
There had been some discussion of this early on. I think that space considerations made the final format work, but part of me would have liked to see fewer spells in the core rulebook and a supplement of just spells that I could buy for my players. That way they could have just that part and not the DM stuff.

Maybe Joseph can be persuaded eventually to have a spells-only book or some spell cards (printed on 8.5x11" cardstock or something like that) so that players have something tangible to hold when the game is underway.

Keep those suggestions coming. You never know when something will grab Joseph's fancy.... 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Spell Formatting
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:23 am 
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Mighty-Thewed Reaver
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I like the idea of keeping players in the dark on the rules. Players learning how things are done without a book in front of them is as fun as loot time.


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 Post subject: Re: Spell Formatting
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:22 pm 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer

Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:15 am
Posts: 45
Hello Folks!
When it comes to spells, keeping the mystery is an awesome venture for the players to experience. However, it also requires alot of Bookkeeping by the DM to speak of. As a player, I love venturing into the unknown. I love the fact that any die roll has a huge chance of superior results as well as Epic Failure. However, that does put more of a burden on the DM, to keep the players entertained.

I think that any gaming group, has to find its right level of DM Micromanagement. Some DMs may find that they want complete and utter control. Others may find they don't like the constant Bookkeeping required to manage every little facet of the game. Yet a third group may find it more beneficial to have the players keep the tabs on what is happening and when its effects transpire or expire. I think that is down to what the DM and the Players agree to.

The matter of fact with a game of this type, it pretty much resides with the DM to entertain his players. That is not to say that the players can not be entertaining in thier own right. My main point being, any resourse that can be utilized by the DM to assist his "Gaming Production",
to help him organize, run, and streamline his adventure for ease of use, should be considered. Whether the DM prefers absolute control or great assistance from his players, the Gaming Aids should be made available to assist him run his production. A DM in a RPG is the equivalent of the Producer, Director, Writer, Scenery, Casting Manager, all the extras and all the other not-to-be named positions in a movie.

So therefore, any and all aids that a Gaming Company can provide to assist those DMs in all thier variety of roles they must assume in one sessions of game-play would be greatly appreciated. I hope this helps folks out.

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 Post subject: Re: Spell Formatting
PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2012 5:00 pm 
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Chaos-Summoning Sorcerer

Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 5:28 am
Posts: 779
Somewhere I posted my regret that we talked Joseph into making the game 10 levels instead of 5. The added space for spells needing 5 levels instead of 3 probably contributed to the need to tighten up the spell formatting. Ironically, I was also against the single spell per page idea and now kind of miss it as well. Odd.


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 Post subject: Re: Spell Formatting
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:21 am 
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Mighty-Thewed Reaver

Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:44 am
Posts: 342
I say there is nothing that 'story' can't fix. :D

Taking Emirikol's Entropic Maelstrom on pg. 213 as an example. Part of its spell tabel is on the next page with the lead in to Eternal Champion so I'd let the player read everything on page 214; telling the character that they didn't find any other legible pages in the tattered rmains of the spell book they found. They can go questing or experimenting to figure out the rest of the Eternal Champion spell. :wink:

Better yet, let the wizard go begging to their patron for the remaining spell fragment... :twisted:


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 Post subject: Re: Spell Formatting
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 1:19 pm 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 6:19 pm
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Tortog wrote:
I say there is nothing that 'story' can't fix. :D

Taking Emirikol's Entropic Maelstrom on pg. 213 as an example. Part of its spell tabel is on the next page with the lead in to Eternal Champion so I'd let the player read everything on page 214; telling the character that they didn't find any other legible pages in the tattered rmains of the spell book they found. They can go questing or experimenting to figure out the rest of the Eternal Champion spell. :wink:

Better yet, let the wizard go begging to their patron for the remaining spell fragment... :twisted:


I like this even better -- only give them the "12-14" results to any spell and a blank table after that. Have THEM fill in the results when they exceed... Then they have a true grimoire, and it allows the DM to make alterations, as needed, by the campaign and/or situation.

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 Post subject: Re: Spell Formatting
PostPosted: Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:12 pm 
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Cold-Hearted Immortal

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That's brilliant, and just so darn cool.

//H

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 Post subject: Re: Spell Formatting
PostPosted: Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:30 pm 
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Chaos-Summoning Sorcerer

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It's been a long time since I've done this....

+d30.

I'd amend the idea by saying, give the player the spell with a 12+ result as the only listed result. When they get a 15 would be when you say such a result is even possible. Why should the player know if 14 might be different from 15 or 12 or not?


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 Post subject: Re: Spell Formatting
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:41 am 
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Mighty-Thewed Reaver

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I would probably end up giving them the 12-14, or whatever the lowest result would be... right after they find out what their mercurial magic result was and then cast the spell for the first time . The way I see the spell format is that everything up to the results table constitutes the "rites & ritual incantations" and such, so if the spell fragment has all of that, then the wizard can study it and roll the dice to see what happens. For wizards in my games, that is all one process; once a casting starts, if it is stopped or interrupted the wizard(s) get an automatic result of 1 on the spell table.

There is one advantage to not giving them the whole thing, or anything beyond a few fragments though: preserving the players ability to go off on their own tangent. Maybe they read the first part of the spell and it gives them a new idea for a spell... let the experimentation begin... :twisted:


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 Post subject: Re: Spell Formatting
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:04 am 
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Deft-Handed Cutpurse
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Good ideas here folks!

I think giving the player a guide as to what to expect from a spell (the 'normal' success) and then having them write out a spellbook as they discover what the spell can do is brilliant. I shall be encouraging this for sure. Nice.

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 Post subject: Re: Spell Formatting
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:20 am 
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Cold-Hearted Immortal

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This thread does have some great ideas! A single-page "spell card" for the player...where they fill in the results themselves as they cast the spell. Awesome idea. That really reinforces the idea of "magic is magical" - the player learns over time exactly what they can do with each result. Very cool.

If you pay close attention to the font sizes of the spells, you'll see that some are a little squished. Where possible I crammed a spell into a single page. But if you get below 9 point text, some people have a hard time reading it. And the possibility on the other end - to have extra white space (or art) after a half-page spell, so no spell starts mid-page - was actually something I started off doing, and then I realized it would push the book well into the mid-500's in terms of page count. 480 is big enough! You guys have come up with some excellent solutions in this thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Spell Formatting
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:51 am 
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SYKOJAK wrote:
...
So therefore, any and all aids that a Gaming Company can provide to assist those DMs in all thier variety of roles they must assume in one sessions of game-play would be greatly appreciated. I hope this helps folks out.


Well, here is a google doc of generic DCC spell tables that I made and have found to save me time and hassle when I'm writing out spells. Included is a list of the spell 'haks' that I'll be using in my home games. It should be downloadable, but let me know if it doesn't work and I'll try again.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MZOaZ58SUrVAGxhB_9Xvlh2LlF62lfjt3JZW4W29fkE/edit

I hope this helps out. :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: Spell Formatting
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 8:56 am 
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Tortog wrote:
SYKOJAK wrote:
...
So therefore, any and all aids that a Gaming Company can provide to assist those DMs in all thier variety of roles they must assume in one sessions of game-play would be greatly appreciated. I hope this helps folks out.


Well, here is a google doc of generic DCC spell tables that I made and have found to save me time and hassle when I'm writing out spells. Included is a list of the spell 'haks' that I'll be using in my home games. It should be downloadable, but let me know if it doesn't work and I'll try again.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MZOaZ58SUrVAGxhB_9Xvlh2LlF62lfjt3JZW4W29fkE/edit

I hope this helps out. :mrgreen:


Sir, thou dost rocketh!

:mrgreen:

Note: Requires permission to download, which you must approve.

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 Post subject: Re: Spell Formatting
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:14 am 
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Mighty-Thewed Reaver

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:oops:

I think I got it figured out... Try it now.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MZOaZ58SUrVAGxhB_9Xvlh2LlF62lfjt3JZW4W29fkE/edit

{computers... not my strong suit}
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 Post subject: Re: Spell Formatting
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:39 am 
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Yep! She's working!

Thanks!

RC

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SoBH pbp:

Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.


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 Post subject: Re: Spell Formatting
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 6:03 am 
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jmucchiello wrote:
Somewhere I posted my regret that we talked Joseph into making the game 10 levels instead of 5. The added space for spells needing 5 levels instead of 3 probably contributed to the need to tighten up the spell formatting. Ironically, I was also against the single spell per page idea and now kind of miss it as well. Odd.

Maybe we could convince Joseph to print "DCC Basic" which would only contain 5 levels worth of characters instead of 10 (with corresponding 3 spell levels kept as well). I would think that much of the same artwork could be reused and maybe the format could fit one spell to a page.

That would be cool.

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DCC RPG playtester 2011, C&C playtester 2003,T&T since 2003,
ADRP Since 1993, OD&D player since 1975

"The worthy GM never purposely kills players' PCs, He presents opportunities for the rash and unthinking players to do that all on their own."
-- Gary Gygax
"Don't ask me what you need to hit. Just roll the die and I will let you know!"
-- Dave Arneson


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 Post subject: Re: Spell Formatting
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2012 8:29 am 
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Deft-Handed Cutpurse

Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:05 pm
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Location: Central Vermont
finarvyn wrote:
jmucchiello wrote:
Somewhere I posted my regret that we talked Joseph into making the game 10 levels instead of 5. The added space for spells needing 5 levels instead of 3 probably contributed to the need to tighten up the spell formatting. Ironically, I was also against the single spell per page idea and now kind of miss it as well. Odd.

Maybe we could convince Joseph to print "DCC Basic" which would only contain 5 levels worth of characters instead of 10 (with corresponding 3 spell levels kept as well). I would think that much of the same artwork could be reused and maybe the format could fit one spell to a page.

That would be cool.


I love the idea and honestly think it would work with just the game up to level 3. That has worked for other products in the past and means you only need to provide two levels of spells, as well as fewer beasts, fewer critical hits, shorter character explanations, etc.


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