Lack of a cleric spell

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Deadhorse
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Lack of a cleric spell

Post by Deadhorse » Thu Mar 05, 2020 11:50 am

Why dont the clerics have a spell like patron bond for converting worshipers?

I would think there should be one.

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Re: Lack of a cleric spell

Post by GnomeBoy » Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:05 pm

Mechanically, that'd be a quick easy way to resolve attracting worshipers to a god.

But I can well image that a Patron Bond spell is basically the Wizard showing off for the Patron, and certainly not charming the Patron to take them on... Patrons are more powerful than that. What the Wizard is doing (IMO) is demonstrating how well they wield magic for the Patron to observe and thereby judge how important they are or aren't to themselves.

The idea of the Cleric charming folks into becoming worshipers might be fine for some gods, but I can't image it being fine for all gods.

I'd base attraction of new converts on the Cleric's actions and how well word about them gets out. On the mechanics-side of things, it'd be Personality checks, using the Dice Chain based on reputation. Just saved the area from an incursion from Elfland? Roll a better die for your check... "Cold calling" an already-devout congregation and trying to get them to switch sides? Roll a lesser dice for your check...
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Re: Lack of a cleric spell

Post by BanjoJohn » Thu Mar 05, 2020 12:38 pm

I think, mechanically, it is a little more involved for a cleric to gain worshipers for their god and build up the congregation. Most of it should be done through your adventuring and role playing, as well as spending resources on building/enhancing a church, maybe charity work if your god is into it. Offering healing services at the end of sermons, etc.

As a Judge, I like to sometimes give clerics a special holy symbol that boosts their spellcasting based on their behavior and the size of their congregation. I got the idea from the spell "holy symbol" except that I think it should just be an item and not necessarily limited to a spell. Of course my item is just for spellcasting and it's also not a "smite the down evil scum" holy symbol like the spell gives you

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Re: Lack of a cleric spell

Post by Deadhorse » Fri Mar 06, 2020 12:05 pm

As i read the spell, patron bond is a voluntary and not a charm.

I ask why cant clerics do this in the purely mechanical sense. High level patron bond grants boons to the bonded.
What is the boon of worshiping a god?
The only benefit i can see is the cleric doesnt gain displeasure when healing a fellow worshiper.

Patron bonding gets you favors and dice rolling bonuses, worshiping a god gets you nothing.

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Re: Lack of a cleric spell

Post by GnomeBoy » Fri Mar 06, 2020 6:30 pm

Worshipping a god is what makes you a Cleric, by definition.

Bonding to a Patron also comes with favors owed...

But I’m not clear on what your question is; is it about the Cleric/god relationship, or about the Cleric/congregant relationship, or something else?
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Re: Lack of a cleric spell

Post by Deadhorse » Tue Mar 10, 2020 6:20 am

Its about the cleric gaining converts.
The party is ribbing the cleric that the wizards patron shows up more and does more than the clerics god.

The warlock convinced a fighter to serve his patron. Patron bond provides dice bonuses and favors.

If someone converts to worship the clerics god they get nothing.
So the saying goes, why worship a god it gets you nothing.

Shouldn't there be something like a patron bond (welcome the convert or some such) to grant at least equivalent bonus to worshipers?

From patron bond spell, when cast on someone else:
The caster forms a bond between his patron and the subject, who is indispensable to the patron. The patron bestows a major boon on the caster in the form of a permanent +1 bonus on all castings of invoke patron and patron spells, and grants a major boon to the subject in the form of a +1 bonus once per day to an action performed in the service of the patron. The subject receives a prominent mark of the patron on his hand or face, and may attempt a Luck check once per month, at a +4 bonus, to ask a major favor from the patron, which may manifest in a magical manner. Each time such a Luck check is attempted there is a 2% cumulative chance that the patron asks for something in return. In addition, the patron sends followers to aid the subject’s natural actions. The followers consist of 1d4+1 warriors, each of level 1d3. All bear the mark of the patron. They warriors serve with absolute loyalty (no morale checks are ever required) and ask for nothing in return save adherence to the principles of the patron

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Re: Lack of a cleric spell

Post by BanjoJohn » Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:04 am

Why not make your own spell? Call it "Communion" or something.

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Re: Lack of a cleric spell

Post by GnomeBoy » Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:19 am

Okay, so let's try to break this down and see if it helps...
Deadhorse wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 6:20 am
The party is ribbing the cleric that the wizards patron shows up more and does more than the clerics god.
This would come down to how the Judge is running the game. If the Judge is having the Patron be very interactive, and not doing anything analogous for the Cleric, that's not a problem with the Class. Agreed?

Deadhorse wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 6:20 am
The warlock convinced a fighter to serve his patron. Patron bond provides dice bonuses and favors.

If someone converts to worship the clerics god they get nothing.
So the saying goes, why worship a god it gets you nothing.
Being attached to a Patron should be a burden. That Patron will have things they want you to do, and that's "want" as in "do this or you will regret it"... Again, if the Judge is not running things that way, that's not a problem with the Classes. Those bonuses are meant to come with a cost. It's not a mechanical cost, built into the system -- it's down to how the Judge runs their game, and they should be making life rough for the subjects of a Patron. The complaint shouldn't be "the worshipers get nothing" -- it should be "I'm not sure this Patron thing is working out for us... Can we ditch him?"

Deadhorse wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 6:20 am
Shouldn't there be something like a patron bond (welcome the convert or some such) to grant at least equivalent bonus to worshipers?
If by "worshipers" you mean, "the PCs" that may have lead to some confusion earlier in the thread. Again, I'd say that the (player character) dude that decides to worship a particular god and becomes a Cleric is getting a HUGE amount for doing that: Spells, Lay On Hands, Turning Unholy, Divine Aid... That's what you get for choosing to worship, if you're really good at it. Yes, the player decides to make their character a Cleric, but in-game it's the character taking up the worship in a way that the god approves of and decides to make them exceptional.

If your campaign has actual Leveled-Clerics around every corner, that'll take steam of the playing a Cleric, too. There may be plenty of priests and general worshipers around, but a Cleric (as in the Class) should be rare.


Reading between the lines, it does sound like things are off, but they can all be corrected by running the situation in the game with more attention. It sounds the same as if someone was running a game where there were no traps and the vast majority of the opponents had no "clear anatomical vulnerabilities" which would make playing a Thief very lackluster...
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Re: Lack of a cleric spell

Post by Jim Skach » Tue Mar 10, 2020 10:49 am

GnomeBoy wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 7:19 am
Being attached to a Patron should be a burden. That Patron will have things they want you to do, and that's "want" as in "do this or you will regret it"...
Herein lies the crux of the issue.

DCC does this in several places - some subtle (like this one) and some not so.

But nothing comes without a price. Sometimes that price is not in the same currency, as is the case here. The benefits of a Patron are mechanical. The liabilities are less direct.

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Re: Lack of a cleric spell

Post by Deadhorse » Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:14 am

In the scheme of the world.
Why would anyone worship a god? they get nothing out of it.
Clerics get their class powers, duh. but spreading the faith... why would anyone worship.

Following a patron. example warrior who agreed to follow the wizards patron.
He gets benefits. tangible ones.

The wizard and warrior are happily doing the patrons bidding. they dont see being a lackey as a down side.

It strikes me as odd that clerics can not offer anything to converts, other than slightly better healing.
I thought there should be something like the patron bond spell for clerics to use on new converts.

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Re: Lack of a cleric spell

Post by Raven_Crowking » Wed Mar 11, 2020 1:06 pm

Deadhorse wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:14 am
In the scheme of the world.
Why would anyone worship a god? they get nothing out of it.
Clerics get their class powers, duh. but spreading the faith... why would anyone worship.
In many cases, for the same reason people do IRL....a feeling of connection to something larger, hopes for the afterlife, a social contract.

Although not in the RAW, another reason is grounded in myth and legend: upsetting gods is not generally a good idea. Helping such a scoffer might constitute sinful use of a divine power.

Per RAW, though, there are at least three reasons:

(1) You re not "Same" for clerical healing unless you worship the same god. I.e, "If cleric and subject differ in alignment by one step (e.g., one is neutral and the other is lawful or chaotic), or have different but not antithetical gods, they count as “adjacent” on the table below." Page 30.

(2) Clerics can get sent on quests by their gods. If you are a worshiper, such quests may help you. Such quests may also be against you if you are not. See page 357.

(3) There is also Divine Aid (pages 357-8) to consider.

OTOH, some Disapproval results require the cleric to gain followers for their deity. If you want mechanics, may I suggest that both The Phlogiston Books and The Lesser Key to the Celestial Legion offer some excellent options.
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Re: Lack of a cleric spell

Post by BanjoJohn » Thu Mar 12, 2020 11:43 am

If the person playing a Cleric doesn't refuse to heal people unless they start worshiping their god, then there is something wrong with that player.

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Re: Lack of a cleric spell

Post by GnomeBoy » Thu Mar 12, 2020 8:27 pm

Deadhorse wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:14 am
...The wizard and warrior are happily doing the patrons bidding. they dont see being a lackey as a down side...
This is exactly where we are seeing things differently. If they are "happily" doing that, that's a very different game than I'd be running for you...
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Kuruz, Mendicant, N • AC 8, 4 hp • R-1, F0, W0 • S9 A8 S9 P11 I16 L8
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Re: Lack of a cleric spell

Post by Deadhorse » Mon Mar 23, 2020 11:03 am

BanjoJohn wrote:
Thu Mar 12, 2020 11:43 am
If the person playing a Cleric doesn't refuse to heal people unless they start worshiping their god, then there is something wrong with that player.
So you believe every adventuring party needs to all worship the same god as their cleric?

Seems boring to me.

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Re: Lack of a cleric spell

Post by BanjoJohn » Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:58 am

I didn't say that, just that the god may be upset about giving healing to players without anything in return. You can still heal at like.. 1 HP a day with rest or something without using magic.

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Re: Lack of a cleric spell

Post by Bobjester » Tue Mar 24, 2020 8:08 am

Offering to tithe something to the cleric's church in return for healing is usually enough to placate the cleric's sense of piety.
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Re: Lack of a cleric spell

Post by Punch the dwarf » Fri Apr 24, 2020 11:48 pm

I admit that the straight-up rules do seem to downplay the need for a god's clerics. There seems to be little difference between gods and demons. Wizards don't charm demons for their spells they force them to help. Yes, wizards get a bonus for patron spells, but they also warp in weird ways when their spells misfire. I think that should apply to a warrior who is bonded. If they disobey their god's commands, they, too, should warp physically. Clerics, on the other hand, avoid much of the pain of walking with bent legs, sweating blood, and all the odd mercurial effects. The judge should be able to promote cleric's helpfulness in other ways. For instance, healing someone aligned with you might improve some other aspect of their "character." Healing someone of adjacent alignment might "mark" them in some way, a new tattoo of the cleric's holy symbol. Healing someone of opposite alignment might actually mark them in more obvious ways or even displease the cleric's god.

My interpretation of our own medieval history is that everyone believed in the gods. There was no other way to explain the mysterious things that happen - from sunrise to getting hit by a lightning bolt. Our own society has replaced the gods with science. Part of excellent role play, IMHO, needs to include an assumption of a source for mystery. If characters don't believe in the gods, hit 'em with a lightning bolt!

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Re: Lack of a cleric spell

Post by catseye yellow » Sun Apr 26, 2020 12:27 pm

Deadhorse wrote:
Thu Mar 05, 2020 11:50 am
Why dont the clerics have a spell like patron bond for converting worshipers?

I would think there should be one.
there is no need. you can say that every worshiper can pray and maybe get results.

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Re: Lack of a cleric spell

Post by Jim Skach » Mon Apr 27, 2020 5:51 am

Deadhorse wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:14 am
In the scheme of the world.
Why would anyone worship a god? they get nothing out of it.
Clerics get their class powers, duh. but spreading the faith... why would anyone worship.
The same reason anyone worships - assurances of a better time in the afterlife; whether that be protection, ease, etc. Blessings in battle against enemies. Having a greater power on your side when the chips are down. Whether or not any of that happens is irrelevant. That's the bargain.

A Cleric is a special person - a physical living embodiment of the God's tenants. People follow them to follow the example the God clearly wants. Why do they know this is what the God wants? Because a Cleric gets these awesome powers directly from the God - they must be doing something right.
Deadhorse wrote:
Tue Mar 10, 2020 11:14 am
Following a patron. example warrior who agreed to follow the wizards patron.
He gets benefits. tangible ones.

The wizard and warrior are happily doing the patrons bidding. they dont see being a lackey as a down side.

It strikes me as odd that clerics can not offer anything to converts, other than slightly better healing.
I thought there should be something like the patron bond spell for clerics to use on new converts.
I think here you are mixing apples and oranges. You are talking about the benefits Warriors or Wizards are getting from the Patron. But then you want to know what is in it for worshipers. But worshipers are not "classed". If you want to make the comparison, then look at what a Cleric gets from the relationship - and that is a ton. The this is framed is like asking why a farmer doesn't get Mighty Deeds like a Warrior. And this is all aside from the idea that doing a Patron's bidding is done "happily".

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