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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 7:01 am 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer

Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:04 pm
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I've been playing and loving DCC, but one mechanical issue keeps cropping up for me: the lack of meaningful difference between characters of wildly different attribute levels making attribute or skill checks. For example, a character with strength 9 trying to lift a heavy gate rolls 1d20 and a character with almost double that strength (strength 17) only rolls 1d20+2. That means the strength 17 character is only effectively 10% stronger than the strength 9 character. Am I missing something?

The most intuitive way I can think of to rectify this is to bring back roll under attribute checks. Thoughts/comments?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 7:08 am 
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The roll-under mechanic is certainly present in the game already -- it's basically a matter of taste on which sort of check to require, vs. a DC or a roll-under.

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Playing RPGs since '77 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters.

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Scale armor, sack, helm, L’ rope, torch • Com, Chaos, Hobgob

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Sword+1 _
Staff+1 or Sling -1 2-5
Scale armr, waterprf sack, L’ rope, torch, 39cp

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 7:15 am 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer

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GnomeBoy wrote:
The roll-under mechanic is certainly present in the game already -- it's basically a matter of taste on which sort of check to require, vs. a DC or a roll-under.


I don't recall seeing roll-under in the rule book.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 7:57 am 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer
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It's mentioned only while speaking of Luck check in case of incoming death - roll your Luck score or below to survive. Other attribute rolls are made the standard way, 1d20 + modifier. I must admit it also bothers me. On one hand it is kinda old school, because back then there wasn't much emphasis on character's attributes and abilities, as the challenges were aimed to test player's skill rather than character's, and rolling high ability scores wasn't as important as it is today in a new school of gaming (feats demanding certain ability scores, convention of playing epic heroes and superstars instead of normal/average people in dangerous situations). On the other hand, the difference between a character with 17 strength and 9 strength is only +2. Given the high range and randomness of d20 (in contrast to 3d6 for example), it is a really measly modifier, and in many cases the person with 9 strength (average man) will manage to overpower a bulky athlete with 17 strength, which I think everyone agrees is highly unlike in reality. I'm eager to change this, but am not sure atm how exactly I should do this.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 7:38 am 
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Cold-Blooded Diabolist

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We use both roll under and roll target number, depending on the situation.

What if a character with a bonus to their attribute also had the DC reduced in relation to the character without a bonus?

So, for instance in order to bash open this door, the DC is 17 for a STR 9 character (or any character with no bonus to STR). For a 17 STR character, the DC is 15, and they still add their bonus to the roll. For someone with a -1 STR bonus, the DC is 18 and they still apply their STR penalty to their roll. Represents advantage a little more and allows the Judge to toggle the threat to the character.

Dunno. Probably too complicated.

I like roll under because its quick. I also like that feats of STR are handled without a lot of math and rolls. You know a 17 STR person is probably going to overpower a 9 STR person. Give the 9 STR person a 10% chance to win (1 on a d10). Done.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 7:43 am 
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I like using the TN method because then I can grant extra bonuses for collaborative efforts. Sometimes I have the assistants roll a die to see how much they are actually helping and sometimes I just add a couple or subtract a couple from the main participants TN roll.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 3:18 am 
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I'm a big fan of the "roll under" attribute check. Use it all the time. The key is that unless you're at a game convention or tournament, you don't need to play everything "by the book" but instead can tweak things to run the way you like. I have several rules that I simply don't bother with when I'm running a game at home, and I feel fine with it. 8)

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 6:15 am 
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Although you have probably already realized it, the dice chain is your friend for "roll under" checks. Rolling under your Strength on 1d16 means the guy with 17-18 makes it automatically; rolling under your Intelligence on 1d30 indicates a task that even your smartest wizard might fail.

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Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 6:15 am 
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double post

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SoBH pbp:

Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.


Last edited by Raven_Crowking on Wed Jun 11, 2014 7:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 7:14 am 
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A suggestion so awesome you had to say it twice. :)

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The Mystic Bull: Check out our two FREE prehistoric adventures: The Steading of the Nergalites AND The Tribe of Ogg and the Gift of Suss
In the Prison of the Squid Sorcerer (PDF) and softcover: 12 Short Adventures for DCC!
The God-Seed Awakens: 3rd Level Adventure for DCC. New patron, new spells, lots of new monsters and the living weapons of the Empire of Thal!
My Gamer Profile


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 8:58 am 
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Steely-Eyed Heathen-Slayer
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I use the roll under mechanic almost exclusively. And as noted by RC, I also use the dice chain to increase/decrease the die as the situation warrants, to make checks easier or tougher. I love the dice chain which is very DCC-esque and gives a mechanical flavor to the game.

This said, I try not to ask for checks if I can avoid it. But that's another topic :)

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Brother Sufferus, level 4 cleric, STR 13 (+1) AGI 15 (+1) STA 11 PER 13 (+1) INT 10 LUCK 9, AC: 11 (13 if wounded, 15 if down to half hit points), Refl: +3 Fort: +2 Will: +3, chaotic, Robe of the Faith, Scourge of the Maimed One, Darts of Pain.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:07 pm 
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Roll under attribute is cool, gives much more advantage to the person with a higher attribute and also allows to adjust test difficulty by adding or substracting a number from the roll. The question is - should it also be done with skills? Not to mention the whole idea of skills is quite controversial.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:33 pm 
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There's a lot of wisdom in the above comments, and

I think its good to remind everyone about the dice chain because the way DCC uses it is a fairly new thing.

Also

I believe the book does say you can use a DC or roll under , I use both all the time, but I wouldn't look to the book to give me permission anyhow. You can almost use a roll under luck check for a default stand-in for just about anything. I feel if you have confidence as a DM It can all be decided on the fly and the important part is that the players don't feel like it is unfair. If they do, address it and move on. I have rolled many things like "how strong is that bandit?" or "how many hit points does that door have" on the spot as needed.

one final thing:

I've experimented with adding your entire ability score to a d20 check particularly in contests. It hasn't been science, but it has been fun. You want to throw that bandit out of the boat ? I (the DM) roll a 3d6 how strong is that bandit check , and then we both roll a d20 and add our entire STR score . The winner gets what they want.

"But my atypically strong assed wizard has duck feet from all that corruption last game ," says the player "don't they help me Doug?"
and I say " Sure! roll a d24 instead and add you whole luck"

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:19 pm 
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Adding the whole attribute sounds really cool. Well I think I'll just playtest several possibilities and check which one proves best.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 11, 2014 7:02 pm 
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Location: Left Coast, USA
FLGS: Bizarro World
Zenitii wrote:
Adding the whole attribute sounds really cool. Well I think I'll just playtest several possibilities and check which one proves best.

~ding ding ding~ We have a winner!

_________________
Gnome Boy • DCC playtester @ DDC 35 Feb '11. • Beta DL 2111, 7AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since '77 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters.

Link: Here Be DCC Monsters

PbP Purple Planeteers!

Havarth • Cleric/Zikcub • Animal trainr • L
S11 A11 S9 P15 I9 L7 • AC10, HP12, R0 F1 W2
Glaive+0 1-10
Club+0 1-4
X' chain, sack
Bless, Dtct Ev, Prot fm Evil, Word oCmmnd

Lucius • Cleric/Verlore • Slave • N
S13 A11 S8 P15 I11 L11 • AC10+, HP6, R0 F0 W2
Sword+1 _
Club+1 2-5
Hide armor, flint/steel, green stone, oil 1
Crit table +1
Dark, Holy Sanct, Resist Cold/Heat, Word o Cmmnd

Toby • Squire
S13 A10 S14 P15 I16 L9 • AC10+, hp3, R0 F1 W1
Lg swrd+1 2-9
Scale armor, sack, helm, L’ rope, torch • Com, Chaos, Hobgob

Kelven • Smuggler
S14 A8 S11 P12 I7 L10 • AC9+, hp2(4), In-1, R-1 F0 W0
Sword+1 _
Staff+1 or Sling -1 2-5
Scale armr, waterprf sack, L’ rope, torch, 39cp

RIP
Stinky Pete, Ostler — Spine snapped by tackling Kith


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 16, 2014 3:59 am 
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Far-Sighted Wanderer

Joined: Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:04 pm
Posts: 18
Doug Kovacs wrote:
There's a lot of wisdom in the above comments, and

I think its good to remind everyone about the dice chain because the way DCC uses it is a fairly new thing.

Also

I believe the book does say you can use a DC or roll under , I use both all the time, but I wouldn't look to the book to give me permission anyhow. You can almost use a roll under luck check for a default stand-in for just about anything. I feel if you have confidence as a DM It can all be decided on the fly and the important part is that the players don't feel like it is unfair. If they do, address it and move on. I have rolled many things like "how strong is that bandit?" or "how many hit points does that door have" on the spot as needed.

one final thing:

I've experimented with adding your entire ability score to a d20 check particularly in contests. It hasn't been science, but it has been fun. You want to throw that bandit out of the boat ? I (the DM) roll a 3d6 how strong is that bandit check , and then we both roll a d20 and add our entire STR score . The winner gets what they want.

"But my atypically strong assed wizard has duck feet from all that corruption last game ," says the player "don't they help me Doug?"
and I say " Sure! roll a d24 instead and add you whole luck"


I love this idea for contests. I don't see how it could work outside contests without throwing off the DC range unfortunately.


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