How often can a cleric retry lay of hands?

For DCC RPG rules discussion. Includes rules questions and ideas, new rules suggestions, homebrews and hacks, conversions to other systems, and everything else rules-related.

Moderators: DJ LaBoss, finarvyn, michaelcurtis, Harley Stroh

Post Reply
User avatar
MrHemlocks
Chaos-Summoning Sorcerer
Posts: 756
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2011 6:07 am
Location: The Rollings Hobbit Hills of Ohio

How often can a cleric retry lay of hands?

Post by MrHemlocks »

Can a cleric keep trying lay of hands untill the wounded character is healed? I know that with each failed spell check his chances of disproval increase.
User avatar
Jobe Bittman
Wild-Eyed Zealot
Posts: 57
Joined: Mon May 04, 2009 10:55 pm

Re: How often can a cleric retry lay of hands?

Post by Jobe Bittman »

The cleric can attempt to lay on hands as many times as desired. Disapproval increases on failures. Lay on hands uses an action die so a cleric can only do it once per round.
User avatar
themightyeroc
Deft-Handed Cutpurse
Posts: 194
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:40 pm
Location: West Palm Beach, Fl

Re: How often can a cleric retry lay of hands?

Post by themightyeroc »

MrHemlocks wrote:Can a cleric keep trying lay of hands untill the wounded character is healed? I know that with each failed spell check his chances of disproval increase.
I think I know where you are going with this question. My players are rolling and rolling and rolling until wounded PC's are healed. They have been really good at not rolling in their disapproval range also.

I have been trying to think of a way to work something out Role-play wise to make this not just a 5 minute long dice rolling bonanza. One thing I realized I had been forgetting was that just because they heal less dice for those of opposing or opposite alignments it doesn't mean the God approves. I started telling them that the deity has told them he/she will not heal opposite or opposing aligned Party members any longer until the Cleric converts them to their religion.

Of course in our last game the neutral cleric died, and the Lawful Cleric has retired to become an NPC, leaving only the chaotic cleric active. We'll see how that plays out.
Ah well, who wants to live forever? DIE!
worldoferoc.blogspot.com
User avatar
GnomeBoy
Tyrant Master (Administrator)
Posts: 3822
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:46 pm
FLGS: Bizarro World
Location: Left Coast, USA
Contact:

Re: How often can a cleric retry lay of hands?

Post by GnomeBoy »

themightyeroc wrote:...the deity has told them he/she will not heal opposite or opposing aligned Party members any longer until the Cleric converts them to their religion... We'll see how that plays out.
So when they can't get healed from within their party, what then?

Personally, I like the idea of a class mechanic that handles this, rather than slowing down the progress of the flow of the game because everybody needs a few days of rest to heal, or littering the lands with other healing sources. Of course, in a party with no Cleric, some other mechanism or method needs to be there, but the character-based solution seems so simple and easy and worry free for the GM.
...
Gnome Boy • DCC playtester @ DDC 35 Feb '11. • Beta DL 2111, 7AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since '77 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters.

Link: Here Be 100+ DCC Monsters

bygrinstow.com - The Home of Inner Ham
User avatar
themightyeroc
Deft-Handed Cutpurse
Posts: 194
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:40 pm
Location: West Palm Beach, Fl

Re: How often can a cleric retry lay of hands?

Post by themightyeroc »

MrHemlocks wrote: I know that with each failed spell check his chances of disapproval increase.
You know what I was doing WRONG!!! We were only increasing the disapproval range initially if a natural "1" was rolled. Not increasing the range for EVERY failed roll!!!

If it were a giant snake I'd be DEAD!

We'll see how this goes over Friday night at the game! I need to pay closer attention to the Wizard Loss/Failure/corruption as well!
Ah well, who wants to live forever? DIE!
worldoferoc.blogspot.com
User avatar
GnomeBoy
Tyrant Master (Administrator)
Posts: 3822
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:46 pm
FLGS: Bizarro World
Location: Left Coast, USA
Contact:

Re: How often can a cleric retry lay of hands?

Post by GnomeBoy »

themightyeroc wrote:
MrHemlocks wrote: I know that with each failed spell check his chances of disapproval increase.
You know what I was doing WRONG!!! We were only increasing the disapproval range initially if a natural "1" was rolled. Not increasing the range for EVERY failed roll!!!

If it were a giant snake I'd be DEAD!

We'll see how this goes over Friday night at the game! I need to pay closer attention to the Wizard Loss/Failure/corruption as well!
The natural 1 (or 1 through whatever the disapproval total is at the time) is the roll on the Chart. But, yes, simple failure bumps up the chance of disapproval...
...
Gnome Boy • DCC playtester @ DDC 35 Feb '11. • Beta DL 2111, 7AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since '77 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters.

Link: Here Be 100+ DCC Monsters

bygrinstow.com - The Home of Inner Ham
User avatar
Raven_Crowking
Cold-Hearted Immortal
Posts: 2998
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:41 am
FLGS: The Sword & Board
Contact:

Re: How often can a cleric retry lay of hands?

Post by Raven_Crowking »

GnomeBoy wrote:
themightyeroc wrote:
MrHemlocks wrote: I know that with each failed spell check his chances of disapproval increase.
You know what I was doing WRONG!!! We were only increasing the disapproval range initially if a natural "1" was rolled. Not increasing the range for EVERY failed roll!!!

If it were a giant snake I'd be DEAD!

We'll see how this goes over Friday night at the game! I need to pay closer attention to the Wizard Loss/Failure/corruption as well!
The natural 1 (or 1 through whatever the disapproval total is at the time) is the roll on the Chart. But, yes, simple failure bumps up the chance of disapproval...
And the degree of potential disapproval as well.
SoBH pbp:

Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.
ragboy
Cold-Blooded Diabolist
Posts: 546
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 4:19 pm
Contact:

Re: How often can a cleric retry lay of hands?

Post by ragboy »

And healing someone of opposed alignment (or opposed god, regardless of alignment) is a sinful use of power -- which also increase the Disapproval Range (from +1 to +10 depending on the infraction!)

On the healing thing, I've considered a system like Crypts & Things with hit points being less about physical damage and more about fatigue, getting battered and bashed, and otherwise being less effective, and Stamina representing actual physical damage. So, hit points come off first, then you start hacking off body parts with Stamina.

My idea is to have hit points "recharge" at some rate per hour of rest (unless there is unhealed Stamina damage) and Stamina to be the "1 per day" heal. Clerics could heal Stamina or Hit points with a lay-on-hands, but lost Stamina has to be healed first.

Dunno if this needlessly complicates matters, but figured it would remove the need for copious external healing sources, and provide me the potential to deal out nasty scars and limb loss for extended and brutal fights.
AKA Paul Wolfe
The Mystic Bull: Check out our two FREE prehistoric adventures: The Steading of the Nergalites AND The Tribe of Ogg and the Gift of Suss
In the Prison of the Squid Sorcerer (PDF) and softcover: 12 Short Adventures for DCC!
The God-Seed Awakens: 3rd Level Adventure for DCC. New patron, new spells, lots of new monsters and the living weapons of the Empire of Thal!
My Gamer Profile
User avatar
themightyeroc
Deft-Handed Cutpurse
Posts: 194
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:40 pm
Location: West Palm Beach, Fl

Re: How often can a cleric retry lay of hands?

Post by themightyeroc »

ragboy wrote: On the healing thing, I've considered a system like Crypts & Things with hit points being less about physical damage and more about fatigue, getting battered and bashed, and otherwise being less effective, and Stamina representing actual physical damage. So, hit points come off first, then you start hacking off body parts with Stamina.

My idea is to have hit points "recharge" at some rate per hour of rest (unless there is unhealed Stamina damage) and Stamina to be the "1 per day" heal. Clerics could heal Stamina or Hit points with a lay-on-hands, but lost Stamina has to be healed first.

Dunno if this needlessly complicates matters, but figured it would remove the need for copious external healing sources, and provide me the potential to deal out nasty scars and limb loss for extended and brutal fights.
I always considered Hit Points to represent fatigue, getting bashed and battered. It is that final "HIT" that takes you to zero (or whatever depending on game played), that Killed or maimed you.

D20 Star Wars played Hit points they way you're describing, it was a little confusing at first but it worked well.
Ah well, who wants to live forever? DIE!
worldoferoc.blogspot.com
Hamakto
Mighty-Thewed Reaver
Posts: 307
Joined: Tue Aug 28, 2007 8:50 am
Location: West Suburbs of Chicago

Re: How often can a cleric retry lay of hands?

Post by Hamakto »

GnomeBoy wrote:
themightyeroc wrote:...the deity has told them he/she will not heal opposite or opposing aligned Party members any longer until the Cleric converts them to their religion... We'll see how that plays out.
So when they can't get healed from within their party, what then?

Personally, I like the idea of a class mechanic that handles this, rather than slowing down the progress of the flow of the game because everybody needs a few days of rest to heal, or littering the lands with other healing sources. Of course, in a party with no Cleric, some other mechanism or method needs to be there, but the character-based solution seems so simple and easy and worry free for the GM.
I know this is an old thread, but I figured I would chime in here.

When the design for the Cleric was being discussed and we were working on the disapproval system, it was discussed that healing someone of the opposite alignment would automatically add a disapproval point.

I don't think that made the final rules because it would make so no one would play a cleric that was non-Neutral. But instead, the variable healing tables (i.e. different dice by alignment) were left in place. Mathmatically, having to heal the player of opposite alignment additional times would result in additional chances for failure (i.e. disapproval increases).

But if you want to be a little more hardcore, just automatically add a disapproval in those cases. It would more accurately reflect a gods displeasure in you healing someone who is opposed to their lookout on the cosmos.
Andy
Blood Kings
2007 & 2008 DCC Tourney Champion
maxinstuff
Wild-Eyed Zealot
Posts: 57
Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:00 pm

How often can a cleric retry lay of hands?

Post by maxinstuff »

Any time you are outside of combat, why not require versions of lay on hands that take longer - as opposed to repeatedly rolling? So if the initial 'normal' lay on hands does not work - don't allow a normal re-do. Require a ritual that takes a full game turn (10 minutes game time - roll for wandering beasty if you aren't in a safe place) - and a bonus to the roll of 1d (d24).

If THAT fails then a full ritual is required that takes all night - you have to be at least at camp, and it causes the cleric and the character to not get any rest that night, and neither can be on watch - bonus of 2d (d30).

Continue to enforce the disapproval rules as written throughout the above process until the cleric takes the necessary rest - and when that happens his deity hits him in his dream with whatever the cost of his divine assistance was ;)

If the party is in a very safe place - allow the all night/day ritual to be repeated if necessary, but at the cost of both the cleric's and the injured character's normal rest - again, no re-set of disapproval until adequate rest/repentance is taken.
Monster
Far-Sighted Wanderer
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:37 am
Location: Lurking in my lair

Re: How often can a cleric retry lay of hands?

Post by Monster »

Hamakto wrote:
GnomeBoy wrote:
themightyeroc wrote:...the deity has told them he/she will not heal opposite or opposing aligned Party members any longer until the Cleric converts them to their religion... We'll see how that plays out.
So when they can't get healed from within their party, what then?

Personally, I like the idea of a class mechanic that handles this, rather than slowing down the progress of the flow of the game because everybody needs a few days of rest to heal, or littering the lands with other healing sources. Of course, in a party with no Cleric, some other mechanism or method needs to be there, but the character-based solution seems so simple and easy and worry free for the GM.
I know this is an old thread, but I figured I would chime in here.

When the design for the Cleric was being discussed and we were working on the disapproval system, it was discussed that healing someone of the opposite alignment would automatically add a disapproval point.

I don't think that made the final rules because it would make so no one would play a cleric that was non-Neutral. But instead, the variable healing tables (i.e. different dice by alignment) were left in place. Mathmatically, having to heal the player of opposite alignment additional times would result in additional chances for failure (i.e. disapproval increases).

But if you want to be a little more hardcore, just automatically add a disapproval in those cases. It would more accurately reflect a gods displeasure in you healing someone who is opposed to their lookout on the cosmos.
Yes, that would be a huge and double stack vs the poor cleric....
To that creature, you are the monsters hunting it!
Noun mon·ster/mɒnstər/Show Spell[mon-ster]
1. a legendary animal combining features of animal and human form or having the forms of various animals in combination, as a centaur, griffin, or sphinx.
2. any creature so ugly or monstrous as to frighten people.
3. any animal or human grotesquely deviating from the normal shape, behavior, or character.
4. a person who excites horror by wickedness, cruelty, etc.
5. any animal or thing huge in size.
6. any small, unattended children running free
User avatar
DM Marcus
Wild-Eyed Zealot
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:37 am

Re: How often can a cleric retry lay of hands?

Post by DM Marcus »

To further resurrect an older thread...

I am still trying to find a balance to outside-of-combat healing that feels right. I'd be interested in knowing what the other judges do in their games, when there is no imminent threat or urgency to the characters and the cleric can roll to his heart's content.

Has anyone instituted a mechanic to limit attempts in a rested day? I thought about having the cleric roll a D6 per CL at the beginning of the workday to determine how much the cleric's deity will "bless" them that day with healing abilities...

Thoughts?
User avatar
Rick
Cold-Blooded Diabolist
Posts: 481
Joined: Sat Apr 23, 2011 8:36 am
FLGS: Gateway Games & More
Location: N KY / Greater Cincinnati area
Contact:

Re: How often can a cleric retry lay of hands?

Post by Rick »

I'm content with the rules as written, with the balance being the risk of increasing disapproval range.

Beats the days of Wands of Cure Light Wounds (w/ 50 charges) anyday, imo.
User avatar
GnomeBoy
Tyrant Master (Administrator)
Posts: 3822
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:46 pm
FLGS: Bizarro World
Location: Left Coast, USA
Contact:

Re: How often can a cleric retry lay of hands?

Post by GnomeBoy »

DM Marcus wrote:Has anyone instituted a mechanic to limit attempts in a rested day?
What is it about the as-is limiting mechanic (disapproval) that you don't like? Is it too swingy?

Your d6 per CL idea is simple (which makes it cool IMO), but at higher levels, might just about translate to healing all day without limit. I mean, if I can heal 18 times a day, and we fight fight fight all day long, that might be more generous than if I had to risk disapproval chances going up each time I cast LoH. If I'm understanding what you're saying.
...
Gnome Boy • DCC playtester @ DDC 35 Feb '11. • Beta DL 2111, 7AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since '77 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters.

Link: Here Be 100+ DCC Monsters

bygrinstow.com - The Home of Inner Ham
User avatar
DM Marcus
Wild-Eyed Zealot
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:37 am

Re: How often can a cleric retry lay of hands?

Post by DM Marcus »

Well, I would still of course keep the disapproval rules in play, regardless of any other limitations the D6 might or might not impose.

As it does in so many other aspects of the game, the dice could dole out a favorable number or a limiting one for the cleric. Just a representation of the cleric's fickle deity on that day.

I haven't implemented it yet; just considering it. I don't want to nerf my cleric, but he has avoided disapproval for the most part and this could add an element of suspense for him.
User avatar
GnomeBoy
Tyrant Master (Administrator)
Posts: 3822
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2006 1:46 pm
FLGS: Bizarro World
Location: Left Coast, USA
Contact:

Re: How often can a cleric retry lay of hands?

Post by GnomeBoy »

DM Marcus wrote:I don't want to nerf my cleric, but he has avoided disapproval for the most part and this could add an element of suspense for him.
I'd be cautious of building a houserule on the back of a good run of the dice. Odds are the dice will swing the other way. Or maybe they are loaded. :twisted:

So, you're saying the Cleric has never failed a spellcheck? Just to be clear, every failed check adds to the disapproval range. At first only a natural 1 provokes a disapproval roll for a tangible *something* that the Cleric has to bear to retain the favor of his or her god. As failures accrue, so do the range of rolls that provoke that roll. They've never failed a roll for casting a spell, laying on of hands, etc.? OR they have failed, but all have been mere failures without provoking a disapproval roll?

Either way, that's got to catch up to them at some point.
...
Gnome Boy • DCC playtester @ DDC 35 Feb '11. • Beta DL 2111, 7AM PT, 8 June 11.
Playing RPGs since '77 • Quasi-occasional member of the Legion of 8th-Level Fighters.

Link: Here Be 100+ DCC Monsters

bygrinstow.com - The Home of Inner Ham
Monster
Far-Sighted Wanderer
Posts: 33
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:37 am
Location: Lurking in my lair

Re: How often can a cleric retry lay of hands?

Post by Monster »

Some clerics are just the favored of their deity.

Loss of favor is harsh, harsher for those who only knew love.
To that creature, you are the monsters hunting it!
Noun mon·ster/mɒnstər/Show Spell[mon-ster]
1. a legendary animal combining features of animal and human form or having the forms of various animals in combination, as a centaur, griffin, or sphinx.
2. any creature so ugly or monstrous as to frighten people.
3. any animal or human grotesquely deviating from the normal shape, behavior, or character.
4. a person who excites horror by wickedness, cruelty, etc.
5. any animal or thing huge in size.
6. any small, unattended children running free
User avatar
Skyscraper
Steely-Eyed Heathen-Slayer
Posts: 660
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:23 pm
Location: Montreal

Re: How often can a cleric retry lay of hands?

Post by Skyscraper »

The level 1 cleric in my game, after only 3 in-game days of play, already needs to atone for his sins (got disapproval twice). I read the disapproval result and adjust it to the game we play, so some are a bit harsher than they would otherwise be. Makes for fun stuff. One of his attonements is intimately linked to the adventure's story too. (well both are flavor-wise, but one is linked to the core of the story)

The cleric is on a streak of bad rolls. And we all love it :)

I think that good rolls are fun for the players because things work out the way they want. And bad rolls are fun for the game, haha.
Maledict Brothbreath, level 4 warrior, STR 16 (+2) AGI 7 (-1) STA 12 PER 9 INT 10 LUCK 15 (+1), AC: 16 Refl: +1 Fort: +2 Will: +1; lawful; Armor of the Lion and Lily's Blade.

Brother Sufferus, level 4 cleric, STR 13 (+1) AGI 15 (+1) STA 11 PER 13 (+1) INT 10 LUCK 9, AC: 11 (13 if wounded, 15 if down to half hit points), Refl: +3 Fort: +2 Will: +3, chaotic, Robe of the Faith, Scourge of the Maimed One, Darts of Pain.
Maxwell Luther
Wild-Eyed Zealot
Posts: 104
Joined: Thu Sep 12, 2013 8:38 am

Re: How often can a cleric retry lay of hands?

Post by Maxwell Luther »

Considering the deadliness of the game so far, and the fact that I only have three players going through dungeons that need 6-10 characters, I'm all about letting the Cleric heal at his heart's content. I actually think it fits the DCC environment quite nicely, the risk versus reward factor of calling on your god one too many times...
User avatar
DM Marcus
Wild-Eyed Zealot
Posts: 73
Joined: Tue Sep 03, 2013 7:37 am

Re: How often can a cleric retry lay of hands?

Post by DM Marcus »

Hmmmm... We have only been playing once a week for a couple months... I'll give it a few more goes and see if his dice ever go cold. So far though, disapproval has not been a factor in the rolls. Thanks all for the input!
Post Reply

Return to “Rules discussion”