Still looking for an easy encumbrance system?

[GnomeBoy]

I just stumbled onto this:

http://monstroustelevision.blogspot.com ... -item.html

[ragboy]

I just stumbled onto this:

http://monstroustelevision.blogspot.com ... -item.html

I started using this.

Made a character sheet (warrior) with it -- > http://goo.gl/RxCtE

Still working on the class-focused sheets and the overall sheet...

[reverenddak]

I just stumbled onto this:

http://monstroustelevision.blogspot.com ... -item.html

RAD. Just RAD.

[beermotor]

Yeah this is really, really nice. I'd love to see one of the more artsy types generate some one-page character sheets. Even just a basic one for all characters (could have a generic block for spells/special abilities). You should see if this guy will let you include this in CRAWL!, Dak.

[cthulhudarren]

I guess I'm not too smart, because I don't get it. I would think simple encumbrance would be more along the lines of showing a figure and then showing what is on your arms, back, shoulders, etc.

[beermotor]

You write "backpack," "sack," whatever in the line to the left of the number, then you fill in the boxes with an item. Small stuff goes in the negligible box beneath the rest. At least I think that's how it works. The elegant thing is it automatically penalizes on a sliding scale for armor.

[Rick]

If it helps, there's two completed example sheets on the original blog post (http://rottenpulp.blogspot.com/2012/06/ ... -item.html)

[Sir Robilar]

That's brilliant, thanks!

[Tortog]

Like cthulhudarren, I was having trouble figuring this out until I saw the examples posted, but what does the "ignore if... plate, chain, leather" thing mean? I'm guessing that's a reference to hvy., med., lt. armor. I'm also guessing that this means: if you're wearing plate you only get the first 3 slots, if wearing leather you're allowed the first 5 slots for carrying things. There is no denying the simplicity, but I think its simplification goes too far; and the coins thing should be more like 100 coins/gems to the slot... People forget that gems, despite the fact that they are pretty, are still just another form of rock. If I were to use this I would likely add at least 2 more slots taking the total to 8. I would definitely add a Class component: i.e. Fighters & Dwarves don't need to list their first 3 weapons or their shield on the chart; Thief & Halfling can pack 3 small items per 'small-box' on each slot; Elves can exempt 1 sh. bow and 1 lg. bow, a quiver, and a spell book; all other classes may exempt their main weapon and Class critical gear from the chart. And magic items/weapons count as 1 size less for storage.

Being a veteran of a few hikes and a lot of long distance cycling (60k and 100m range) I can tell you that the weight you are carrying is far more critical than the item's size and bulk. This is also true for rock climbing and mountaineering, though I take this info from friends of mine who are way into climbing. One of them was playing a Dwarven fighter/mountaineer type character in an AD&D game I was running and he told me; "when you have nothing but your strength, determination, and chalky finger-tips between you and 1000ft or more of empty space... weight matters."

Looking at the example, I have to say that it could lead to game halting arguments as players demand to know what an item's size is... and then start arguing with you over the ruling. I saw it happen often enough in the AD&D days over similar issues. Take the example above; as a player and a GM, I don't think a bow qualifies as a large item and I would allow both quiver and long bow to count as the same item when carried.

Though... The articles on spiders and familiars... F---ing outstanding!

[GnomeBoy]

...I can tell you that the weight you are carrying is far more critical than the item's size and bulk...

You are absolutely right.

Way back in time, I busily kept track for a particular character for months, and it just never really mattered. Why do the fiddly math of looking up the weight for equipment, and adding it all up and keeping track when it changes, etc. etc., if the only issue is are you under your weight limit? I've never seen a group that used such a weight-based system, other than trying to 'get back to it' and it lasting a session or two and then we just go back to not worrying about it too much. The biggest issue, I think, is the level of work it requires vs. the amount it actually gets 'used' in play. Not nearly fun enough to justify it.

This anti-hammerspace system simplifies things greatly, while still making what you have on you matter. It nails down what's where easily, and gives the GM an easy 'target', if items would be threatened by a fall or other damage source (much preferred by me, rather than what I've seen done: going down the equipment list and rolling a save for each item ).

For me, this seems like a system that both works, and is something that is worth maintaining. I'm a little excited about introducing it to my group next month when we start up again...

[Tortog]

@GB> While what you're saying makes a lot of sense, and if it works for you then... Great. And in a standard dungeon crawl, it's probably the better option. The way you describe it, yeah, there's not much point and it bogs things down... Unless your GM takes the time to set things up properly.


But if the players are going into the wilderness: I make them prep for it the same as you would in real life. Because once they are out away from civilization this is all they have to work with; if something breaks, they need to fix it, scrounge a replacement, or do without. The effort is well worth the time to set it up.

It took me about 30hrs spread over 3 months (several years ago) to create a an Excel spread sheet that has item, size, weight, page number, and cost for the D&D3.5 system derived from: PH1, A&E, Races of Stone, Dragonscape, Frostburn, Sandstorm, Stormwrack, Comp. Adventurer, a few specialty items from the Magic Item Compendium, a few custom items created with the DMG, and the Comp. Scoundrel. The spreadsheet has other functions, but everything is still set up for D&D3.5 so only the item info is still relevant to DCC games. It calculates wt/$ so players just need to enter quantities and the rest is done for them for both medium and small characters. Additionally, I've prepared 'standard' kits for medium and small characters that players can look at and modify based on there needs vs. cash vs. carrying capacity. Lastly, after the first session I take the time to enter their data into a game file and when something is lost, all I have to do is high-light and delete... then tell them they feel lighter and give them the updated total. Once it is set up; in game it takes 30sec to 3 minutes depending on how much beer I've had.

Oversimplification leads to false perceptions and IMO is a bad idea even though it is often necessary; but especially if it leads to PC's getting more treasure than they should... something I oppose on general principles.

I've always assumed 10 carats to 1 gp (and all found gems are uncut unless part of jewelry) so:
one gem/1000 weighs
10gp gem= 0.04lb/40lbs
100gp gem= 0.4lb/400lbs
1000gp gem= 4.0lb/2tons
10000gp gem= 40.0lb/20 tons
100000gp gem= 400.0lb/200 tons

but if you assumed 1 carat = 1 gp;

10gp gem= 0.004lb/4lbs
100gp gem= 0.04lb/40lbs
1000gp gem= 0.4lb/400lbs
10000gp gem= 4.0lb/2 tons
100000gp gem= 40.0lb/20 tons

This is calculated using diamonds, which are
the lightest of the precious gems.

Gold Coins:---------------------one coin/1000 weighs
Spanish Dollar (pieces of eight)= 0.06lbs/ 60lbs
Spanish Doubloon (old)= 0.015lbs/15lbs
Spanish Doubloon (new)= 0.018lbs/18lbs
D&D3.5 (10 gp/lb)= 0.1lbs/ 100lbs
Modern investment coin= 0.69lbs/ 690lbs
standard bar = 27.43lbs/ 13.72 tons

you know... in case anyone was interested... 'cause getting the loot home is the other half of every adventure.

[Jack_Shandy]

Co-creator here: Glad you guys like it.

Torbog, you're not quite correct on the armor: Heavy armor takes up three slots, medium armor takes up two, and light armor takes up one.

Your excel spreadsheet sounds incredible. The Anti-Hammerspace tracker exists because I'm far too lazy to do anything like that. I have massive respect for people who follow the simulation route, but I've always found that abstract or gamey mechanics work better for me at the table.

[GnomeBoy]

... Unless your GM takes the time to set things up properly.

But if the players are going into the wilderness: I make them prep for it the same as you would in real life....depending on how much beer I've had.

That sounds like at least six kinds of awesome -- kudos for putting in the work to put that together!

Not to challenge the idea, but because I'm curious: Do the players know as much about real overland travel as you do? Or rather, do you expect them to know as much in their preparations?

I once had a guy run a game where he just simply expected us to know all about the source material for the game, down to which buttons to push on our powered armor to do specific things. We ranged from somewhat familiar to 'never saw the show', and he dealt us a TPK in the first five minutes because as players we didn't know the exact sequence of the atmospheric re-entry procedure...

How do you handle player knowledge vs. character knowledge for wilderness prep?

... 'cause getting the loot home is the other half of every adventure.

I once ran a game that started with a huge haul of treasure that the characters had to get home across two kingdoms. One of my favorite games of all time.

[Tortog]

That sounds like at least six kinds of awesome -- kudos for putting in the work to put that together!

Thanx, I wish I could share it on-line, but I suspect I'd be violating copyright law.

Not to challenge the idea, but because I'm curious: Do the players know as much about real overland travel as you do? Or rather, do you expect them to know as much in their preparations?

No. But, I had to learn this the hard way. I learned since then that weirdos like me are fairly rare... so I use NPC's to make suggestions and such while characters are making their in game preparations.

I once had a guy run a game where he just simply expected us to know all about the source material for the game, down to which buttons to push on our powered armor to do specific things. We ranged from somewhat familiar to 'never saw the show', and he dealt us a TPK in the first five minutes because as players we didn't know the exact sequence of the atmospheric re-entry procedure...

How do you handle player knowledge vs. character knowledge for wilderness prep?

As a GM I have several ways, primarily through a concept that I call 'Assumed Competence': meaning that the players are not their characters, and their characters would have the knowledge even if the player doesn't. So, if I see a situation where this discrepancy might be an issue I will start giving them knowledge about the situation and then supplement the info with additional INT checks with DC's based on what their character's presumed knowledge base should be. Example: a wizard might know something about roaming around in nature, but cleric of a nature, Elf, or PC with forester, Shaman, trapper, herder, etc. as 0-lvl occupation will have a better chance of knowing the same info. So detailed info on the environment will be DC13+ for wizard, but DC11-12 for 0-lvl occupations, and DC 10 or less for Elf or cleric of nature.

If the situation is really important I will pull aside the character with the most likely chance of knowing the critical info and discuss it with them and flat out tell the player what their options are (best to worst) and why these are the options available, but my language and descriptions are based on the info their character would know. Then I send them back into the game and let them RP their character with all of the things they need to know. What's awesome is that 7/10 times the description of the options I give spurs their innate creativity and they will come up with something else better than the offered solutions.

One of the other tactics I use is careful questioning during the character generation process, if I find out that they have a real world skill set that might be useful in the game I'll ask them if they want to have a character with these skills. Most of the time the answer is 'no', because they are gaming to escape all of that... which tells me that during the game I should have someone else or an NPC step in to handle those situations. The times when they've said yes... are fantastic. Especially since they are usually quite happy to teach me and everyone else about the subject, especially if they can help move the game along and add to its richness while they're doing it. I've learned a lot of things this way over the years, which just gives me more fodder to work with the next time I set up a game. I also find that these situations crop up more often in 'modern' or 'sci-fi' settings' like Shadowrun and Cyberpunk.

I also have my own research library to draw on... So I do an absurd amount of research. For example: I'm currently reading a book on the history of salt, covering it's importance to the Human race, how it is extracted (ancient and modern), transport, sold, etc.: all because I want to properly portray an NPC in a story I'm working up.

I once ran a game that started with a huge haul of treasure that the characters had to get home across two kingdoms. One of my favorite games of all time.

Sweet! The best game I've ever played in (regardless of system and theme) was a Star Wars 1st edition game run by a guy who has a degree in astrophysics... Our state of gut-snarling fear of the Hyper-drive mishaps table he created was offset by the majesty and variety of adventure that awaited us with every space battle or planet-fall.

[Colin]

Hey Ragboy,

What program are you using to create your character sheet? Any chance I could have a copy of the pre-pdf'd file to hack and prettify it a bit, please?

Colin

[beermotor]

Hey Ragboy,

What program are you using to create your character sheet? Any chance I could have a copy of the pre-pdf'd file to hack and prettify it a bit, please?

Colin

Sweet, please do. I'd love a more generic one, Paul Wolfe's been producing specialized ones for his game (seen 'em via G+) but I'd like just a straight up generic DCC charsheet to use for everybody. (Or, alternatively, you could make a bunch of standard class sheets.)

I won't pay you but I will sing your praises for ever and ever.

[beermotor]

That sounds like at least six kinds of awesome -- kudos for putting in the work to put that together!

Thanx, I wish I could share it on-line, but I suspect I'd be violating copyright law.

So long as you're not selling it, you're probably making "Fair Use" of the material. It would depend on how much of the stat blocks and such that you've got included. If it's just references to page numbers in the books, then I'd be more confident than if you were reprinting entire stat blocks and descriptions and such.

[Colin]

Co-creator here: Glad you guys like it.

Kudos. You guys did good work.

Colin

[Machpants]

Swords and Wizardry have an easy system too, your 'general gear' is expected to weight 10lbs (for me that is too light for what most adventurers pile in their packs!) and only track armour, weapons and loot weight. Saves a lot of problem with tracking each piton or days worth or iron rations.

However I may yoink this ides for the game with my kids!

[Tortog]

So long as you're not selling it, you're probably making "Fair Use" of the material. It would depend on how much of the stat blocks and such that you've got included. If it's just references to page numbers in the books, then I'd be more confident than if you were reprinting entire stat blocks and descriptions and such.

Well... it's just pg #s, $, and weight; but.... technically, the act of re-distributing the information is still an infringement. Which means that posting it for others to use technically violates the law... thanks Metalica v. Nabster!!! And I'm not interested in tap-dancing through the grey areas now that I'm publishing things. Especially when you consider that Games Workshop is firing off lawsuits at writers using the term "spacemarine": I think I'll err on the side of caution. Sorry.

Part of the point I was trying to make is that it really doesn't take that much time. Setting up the spread-sheet really isn't that hard. That project was the one I used to teach myself the Excel program (part of why it became so complicated) and even if it took 5 hours a week (less than an hour a day), that is still a pittance of time.

Considering that my file is a GM tool that has 11 pages covering different functions (some in game, some for just basic record keeping); I figure someone with better typing skill could do up an inventory only sheet in less than a week... maybe two if you want it to be really elaborate.

To be fair, I like the idea behind the equipment managing system. I just think that by the time players account for all of their adventuring gear, there isn't any room left over for much treasure anyway, so I guess it doesn't matter if the sheet says they can carry 1000 coins or gems per slot. (BTW> is that 1 tiny box, or one full set of 3? )

As a player, I'd render the entire question moot by asking if my character could buy a goat. Pound for pound, they are possibly the best pack animal of all time: easier to feed and care for; as trainable as pigs and smart dogs; they're smaller so the character can travel farther underground; and they can traverse terrain that would break the legs of a horse or mule. Oh yeah, and goats can carry more than other undulates of similar size for up to 9 hours a day without harm, and in a worst case scenario... goats taste better than horses or mules.

[GnomeBoy]

asking if my character could buy a goat. ... in a worst case scenario... goats taste better than horses or mules.

When a fragmented society is recovering from the Zombie Apocalypse, I hope you and I have been throw together by the convolutions of fate. You seem to know your stuff.

[ragboy]

Hey Ragboy,

What program are you using to create your character sheet? Any chance I could have a copy of the pre-pdf'd file to hack and prettify it a bit, please?

Colin

Sorry -- thought I posted this here but it was on G+. I also IM'ed you... I used Publisher... Here's all the sheets I have in that format (including two sheets for experimental classes we were hacking while we played a post-apocalyptic DCC...thing)

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-DsHlN ... sp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-DsHlN ... sp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-DsHlN ... sp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-DsHlN ... sp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-DsHlN ... sp=sharing
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-DsHlN ... sp=sharing