infravision...need rules clarified please

[MrHemlocks]

How does infravision work in DCC? Is it the ability to see in the dark, like the rules are written, or the ability to pick up heat signatures only?

Like the dwarf ability infravision...able to see in the dark 60'. Does that mean only able to pick up heat signatures or truely see IN THE DARK 60'?

I like an official answer because it will affect how I play certain races and how my players run their characters.

[Raven_Crowking]

How does infravision work in DCC? Is it the ability to see in the dark, like the rules are written, or the ability to pick up heat signatures only?

Like the dwarf ability infravision...able to see in the dark 60'. Does that mean only able to pick up heat signatures or truely see IN THE DARK 60'?

I like an official answer because it will affect how I play certain races and how my players run their characters.

I know this is not going to be what you are looking for, but I imagine that the official answer is "however the judge in question says it does."

[MrHemlocks]

How does infravision work in DCC? Is it the ability to see in the dark, like the rules are written, or the ability to pick up heat signatures only?

Like the dwarf ability infravision...able to see in the dark 60'. Does that mean only able to pick up heat signatures or truely see IN THE DARK 60'?

I like an official answer because it will affect how I play certain races and how my players run their characters.

I know this is not going to be what you are looking for, but I imagine that the official answer is "however the judge in question says it does."

Yep, for sure. I house rule a lot of things for a lot of games, but just want an official ruling on the matter.

[beermotor]

Doubt there really is an official answer...

[Skars]

The official answer would likely be rules as written, "{Halfling, elf, dwarf} can see in the dark up to {30,60} ft."

It's that simple, they can see. As judge of your own weird world you define how that works.

[cthulhudarren]

To me, "infravision" means to see heat signatures. "Darkvision" means to see in the dark. Does the rulebook say "they can see in the dark for 30'/60'/whatever?

[Skars]

Yes, substitute the class and distance in my statement above. There is no "darkvision" defined in the rules to my knowledge, that is a 3.x term.

[Sveden]

In my game I just run infra-vision like dark vision from 3.X

Seeing heat signature is tricky business.

[MrHemlocks]

In my game I just run infra-vision like dark vision from 3.X

Seeing heat signature is tricky business.

Exactly! I am not sure how do play my halfling and dwarf characters, in DCC, while exploring in the dark. Why would a dwarf and halfling just be able to see heat signatures? Often deep underground there is not much heat given off by anything so to me infraviosion should be able to let the characters see in darkness where there are little or no heat siginatures.

[reverenddak]

When it came into question, I asked my players what they think it "looked like". They came up with something similar to "Infravision". So we ran with it, which is awesome because now they can't see ghosts, some undead and animated objects because they don't give off heat. Can't read written things, etc. But I wouldn't get too technical with it. But whatever works for your group is what it should be.

[cthulhudarren]

Not to sh!t stir, but I read the races/class descriptions again last night. I would rule in my own game that Infravision=Darkvision. Seeing heat signatures allows too many wonky scenarios, though as Dak said, that could be used for gm fun and profit. I suppose Infravision is more Appendix N though. Am I changing my mind as I type this?

[beermotor]

Let's assume you could see into the infrared spectrum some, as well as in visible light. What this means is that you'd be at a great advantage in darker environments, being able to differentiate things like walls, floors, holes, doorways, creatures that are warm, etc. But visible light is still "better" because of the ability to discern details unrelated to heat (instead, related to reflectivity). "Darkvision" under 3.x is actually the ability to see in black and white in total darkness, IIRC. It doesn't really make any sense, physically. Check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_vision

So, based on that, here's what I'd probably rule in my game (it hasn't come up in tabletop). If you convince me that your race ought to have "night vision" like that, you're talking about a passive biological image intensification. God help you if somebody walks nearby with a torch, heh... you're looking at d3 Turns (up to 30min!) of blindness, for the eye structures to go back to baseline.

In my opinion, the ability to see a bit into the infrared spectrum, without having the blindness issues associated with pure "night vision" or "dark vision," is preferable, and makes more game sense.

[cthulhudarren]

So you'd rule that anyone with night vision (darkvision) would also get light sensitivity? Makes sense.

[beermotor]

Yeah, and if you read that article, it's not just like a -1 to attack rolls, it's like 30 minutes for the rods in the eyes to go back to normal... so, 50% miss chance, just like with invisibility.

[Skars]

I don't know that I would bring real world anecdotes into a fantasy game. It's not a simulation. If you try to explain everything, you lose some of the mystery. But, each Judge knows whats best for their table.

[Ravenheart87]

I don't know that I would bring real world anecdotes into a fantasy game. It's not a simulation. If you try to explain everything, you lose some of the mystery. But, each Judge knows whats best for their table.

Agree. By the way I loved in AD&D DMG the examples Gygax had about how to make infravision useless.

[beermotor]

Yes... to each his own. I like things to make sense and have a rational explanation (excepting perhaps magic). But maybe to properly DCCify infravision/darkvision/whatevervision, you could have a randomized ability ... e.g., you can see 2d12 feet in the darkness. Sometimes helpful... sometimes useless.

[Raven_Crowking]

In my game, infravision is infravision.

However, one of my players has a character which also has darkvision ala 3e, due to in-game events.

[themightyeroc]

I chose to describe it as they can see in the dark like cats. The "Predator" style infravision is cool in a movie but kind of a pain in the butt to describe in game. I also still let nearby torches and lanterns cancel the vision out out too.

[Skyscraper]

I think infravision can be interesting. I remember we used that in old D&D. To work, it requires no other light source in the area where the character with infravision stands; and then he indeed sees only differences in heat signatures. I allowed spotting footprints (if applicable) or creatures that recently passed, seeing through thin walls, and the like. It was very fun. Plus... The occasional heat-neutral creature is always an interesting surprise.

Let's assume you could see into the infrared spectrum some, as well as in visible light. What this means is that you'd be at a great advantage in darker environments, being able to differentiate things like walls, floors, holes, doorways, creatures that are warm, etc. But visible light is still "better" because of the ability to discern details unrelated to heat (instead, related to reflectivity). "Darkvision" under 3.x is actually the ability to see in black and white in total darkness, IIRC. It doesn't really make any sense, physically. Check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_vision

So, based on that, here's what I'd probably rule in my game (it hasn't come up in tabletop). If you convince me that your race ought to have "night vision" like that, you're talking about a passive biological image intensification. God help you if somebody walks nearby with a torch, heh... you're looking at d3 Turns (up to 30min!) of blindness, for the eye structures to go back to baseline.

In my opinion, the ability to see a bit into the infrared spectrum, without having the blindness issues associated with pure "night vision" or "dark vision," is preferable, and makes more game sense.

Interesting piece of information, thanks for the link.

I'm not sure we have to follow this logic in DCC however. This would assume that dwarves and other infravision races would have a physiology that works like a human's. It doesn't have to be that way. This is a magical world. Infravision can be fun, after all. As mentioned above, we played with it for ten years or more in 1E D&D, and it never occurred to me to attach a light sensitivity to it, it was simply an interesting aspect of most non-human races that only occasionally came into play.

To the OP, I'd say, if heat-detection infravision sounds fun to you, let it be that way! It certainly changes from the usual "you see like in normal light, but not quite as far" approach.