clarification on Mighty Deeds of Arms

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clarification on Mighty Deeds of Arms

Post by ecz » Sun Jan 13, 2013 11:52 am

Assuming a Warrior rolls one d6 as deed die, a deed is successfull if he rolls 3 or better on the d6 AND he hits (pag. 88). This is clear enough.
But what happens if the warrior hits the target but fails the deed (rolling 1 or 2 on the deed die?). It's a hit or a miss?

I think the hit lands normally although the deed is missed (no extra result or damage).

And I think that this rule "suggests" the warrior to try a deed at any attack because there is no risk: if you miss the deed may be you still hit normally, if you get the deed you have a nice extra result. Deed becomes automatically attempted at each cross of swords or arrow flight.

I see this special ability for warriors as a bonus, and each bonus should be risky if you want it.
What about penalize the failed attempt of the deed with a miss of the shot even if the target AC is reached?
IMO players should decide if to make things harder and search the deed, OR forfeit the deed and search a normal hit.

The rationale behid is that warriors should think twice before trying a deed and, perhaps, these coreographic and epic actions could be reserved only to get extra results that are really needed when they are really needed to save the day. All Characters are faced with a further tactical choice: More risk to miss in exchange of a better result if you hit. This looks more realsitic and fun. The archer must decide if try that nearly impossible shot across the only unarmored spot of the evil orc-wizard ( rolling 5 or better on the d6 deed dice ) or try an ordinary "easy shot" forfeiting the chance of the extra damage.
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Re: clarification on Mighty Deeds of Arms

Post by GnomeBoy » Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:25 pm

In short, many have complained about how the Deeds work before they actually play...

I'll leave the conclusion of that sentence as an exercise for the student. :mrgreen:
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Re: clarification on Mighty Deeds of Arms

Post by Gameogre » Sun Jan 13, 2013 12:30 pm

The official answer I think is: There is no penalty for trying and failing a Deed.

Indeed it is meant to be something that occurs every single swing of a warrior.


That said, there are many with house rules that do other things.

I have seen house rules for the following- Attempting a Deed lowers the warriors AC by 4(he is trying something tricky instead of concentrating on defending), The Warrior doesn't add his deed die to damage when trying a deed. The Warrior only gets 3+Str bonus per day of Deed attempts.

All of those have been used and all of them carry hidden consequences to the game. Before changing anything I would try and play it as written. Perhaps it isn't the problem you think it will be. If it is you can always change it to something you like better.


Basically find something that works for you.

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Re: clarification on Mighty Deeds of Arms

Post by Dark Lord » Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:22 pm

Nobody ever complains about a Wizard casting a spell every round. :P

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Re: clarification on Mighty Deeds of Arms

Post by Blood Axe » Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:36 pm

I dont agree that a Mighty Deed should occur with every swing. If it happens all the time, then its just a deed. :wink:
Its kind of like a called shot, you expect (or are trying) a special effect, not just an ordinary hit/damage.
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Re: clarification on Mighty Deeds of Arms

Post by Dark Lord » Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:00 pm

That's why there's a die roll.

Also, if you don't declare one, you have a default one, so you're not slowing the game down every turn. I haven't noticed any problems like the ones speculated. Most of the time the Dwarf and Fighters in my group fight defensively by default and then when appropriate they do something Mighty.

I don't want to jump to conclusions, but it really seems like a perceived problem from having only read the rules, and not playing much.
I haven't noticed any problems like the ones listed.

Can anyone give in game examples of how this is problematic?

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Re: clarification on Mighty Deeds of Arms

Post by RevTurkey » Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:09 pm

Problematic? Mighty deeds rule!
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Re: clarification on Mighty Deeds of Arms

Post by RevTurkey » Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:12 pm

I think the risk factors in play come more from the 9 headed frog demon of doom trying to squish the fighter enjoying doing all these cool things and not from some mechanical system.
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Re: clarification on Mighty Deeds of Arms

Post by Blood Axe » Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:20 pm

Dark Lord wrote:That's why there's a die roll.

Also, if you don't declare one, you have a default one, so you're not slowing the game down every turn. I haven't noticed any problems like the ones speculated. Most of the time the Dwarf and Fighters in my group fight defensively by default and then when appropriate they do something Mighty.

I don't want to jump to conclusions, but it really seems like a perceived problem from having only read the rules, and not playing much.
I haven't noticed any problems like the ones listed.

Can anyone give in game examples of how this is problematic?
I mean this in a nice way.
So you have played a game where each fighter/dwarf has declared some mighty deed with every attack?? Seems overkill. Its not special if you are tryig to do it all the time.
Speculating & discussing something doesnt mean you are wrong. (or right)
Anyway, it boils down to this- its your game, play how you like. Its all about fun. If it works for you - great. If it doesnt work for you- change it to something that does.
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Re: clarification on Mighty Deeds of Arms

Post by Gameogre » Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:43 pm

After the 3rd or 4th game with four warriors as the primary group they started to use Might Deed every single swing. Mostly to disarm,trip and in general get some major advantage. Only the (Tank) of the group was fighting defensively.

Frankly it got annoying.Slowed the game down and lead to stupid attempts to do crazy things.

One player tried to literally jump on top of his giant sword and surf it into a monster. So I had the monster beat him to death for trying such a foolish thing in a combat.

So in my home games I added a -4 to AC when doing a Mighty Deed. It seems to clear up the issue so it only was used for something important.


I think its just one of those things that come up with some groups. Do what works for you.

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Re: clarification on Mighty Deeds of Arms

Post by ecz » Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:47 pm

Dark Lord wrote:That's why there's a die roll.

Also, if you don't declare one, you have a default one, so you're not slowing the game down every turn. I haven't noticed any problems like the ones speculated. Most of the time the Dwarf and Fighters in my group fight defensively by default and then when appropriate they do something Mighty.

I don't want to jump to conclusions, but it really seems like a perceived problem from having only read the rules, and not playing much.
I haven't noticed any problems like the ones listed.

Can anyone give in game examples of how this is problematic?
I'm not saying it's problematic, I'was wondering if I have understood the rule.
And as I did, I'm then wondering if the way deeds are managed by the rules is better then how I figured it at first .

When I first saw the rule, I thought that deeds are a tough decision with pros and cons: to risk or not to risk the epic success? Is that foe so dangerous to need a special tactic at the risk to miss it, or and ordinary longsword attack is enough for him so I do not need any esotic action?

When I see the battles of the heroes vs the villains on the fantasy movies not each shot is an attempt to make a deed. Kevin Kostener-Robin Hood fired three arrows at once only one time. Not every time Conan or Wallace make a sword attack they try something epic.

If a deed is something that is always searched by default it ceases to be "extraordinary" and become as second type of critical hit out of the control of the Character like exactly the first type (i.e. it depends on die only).

but it's true that I'm still reading the rules and probably I should play before thinking house rules... :wink:

One final word, the question arose because I was not sure to have undestood well the rule, not because I want criticize the rules.
thank you to all have answered.
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Re: clarification on Mighty Deeds of Arms

Post by TheNobleDrake » Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:26 pm

When this topic comes up I usually go into it with a post about how Mighty Deeds are the warriors "thing" and that they shouldn't be limited or discouraged any more than one limits or discourages other classes from doing their "thing" (thieves backstab & skill, clerics use the powers of their god, and wizards cast spells).

...today though, I will take a different approach: Mighty Deeds happen every round because the warrior has given up a significant thing in order to obtain them - his attack bonus is wholly unreliable. It's harder to notice at low levels where the minimum that the warrior gets is still equal or better than the bonus other classes get... but when you look at the mid-range levels you see that there are times when the warrior doesn't even add what a cleric or thief would.

The risk is all built right in to the mechanics: you have Deeds, and therefore might occasionally have the attack bonus of less than or equal to the other classes even though you are meant to be at the top of the chart when it comes to who is good with weapon attacks. Its especially unlikely that the warrior keeps up with a backstabbing thief's reliably accurate attacks.

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Re: clarification on Mighty Deeds of Arms

Post by Dark Lord » Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:27 pm

ecz wrote:When I first saw the rule, I thought that deeds are a tough decision with pros and cons: to risk or not to risk the epic success? Is that foe so dangerous to need a special tactic at the risk to miss it, or and ordinary longsword attack is enough for him so I do not need any esotic action?
Should the Wizard also face such a decision to cast a spell? Both the Fighter and Wizard risk a fumble if they roll a 1. Why should Fighter be penalized more for his special ability? Remember, there are no feats or skills in this game. This is all a fighter has.
ecz wrote:When I see the battles of the heroes vs the villains on the fantasy movies not each shot is an attempt to make a deed. Kevin Kostener-Robin Hood fired three arrows at once only one time. Not every time Conan or Wallace make a sword attack they try something epic.
And in practice not every attack in DCC will be either.
ecz wrote:If a deed is something that is always searched by default it ceases to be "extraordinary" and become as second type of critical hit out of the control of the Character like exactly the first type (i.e. it depends on die only).
That's why they're not called Extraordinary Deeds, they're called Mighty Deeds of Arms. It's not extraordinary to knock somebody over in a fight. It's not extraordinary to attack a weak point in a fight. It's not extraordinary to fight defensively, or to leave yourself open to get more power. Do you complain about Power Attack in d20?

Here... (if it doesn't automatically, start at 2 minutes in)
http://youtu.be/52Kkr2vyXU8?t=2m2s

2m Round 1: Aragorn uses a Mighty Deed to do a Leaping Attack
2:19 Round 2: Aragorn uses a Mighty Deed to fight defensively with his torch to prevent them from flanking him.
2:27 Round 3: Aragorn uses a Mighty Deed to light one on fire with his torch.
2:35 Round 4: Aragorn uses a Mighty Deed to force the nazgul backward down the side of Weathertop.
2:49 Round 5: Aragorn uses a Mighty Deed to throw the torch into its face and light it one fire. Probably had to borrow some of Sam's Luck to do it.

There's a mighty deed in every attack.
ecz wrote:One final word, the question arose because I was not sure to have undestood well the rule, not because I want criticize the rules.
thank you to all have answered.
Don't worry, I don't have any emotional investment in the rules, so you could have criticized them and it wouldn't bother me. I was just stating that I have read this type of statement many times and it seems to come from people who haven't played. I would suggest giving it a try. Remember to have your fighters and dwarves declare a default attack, ours generally go with defensive fighting.

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Re: clarification on Mighty Deeds of Arms

Post by Gameogre » Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:41 pm

The Wizard faces FAR more danger casting a spell than the warrior swinging his might deed. Unless you have house ruled on a fumble the Warrior can kill not only himself but everyone else!

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Re: clarification on Mighty Deeds of Arms

Post by TheNobleDrake » Sun Jan 13, 2013 3:55 pm

Gameogre wrote:The Wizard faces FAR more danger casting a spell than the warrior swinging his might deed. Unless you have house ruled on a fumble the Warrior can kill not only himself but everyone else!
Would you mind directing me to any misfire or corruption results that are lethal to one's self or one's party? I don't remember reading very many of those.

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Re: clarification on Mighty Deeds of Arms

Post by Dark Lord » Sun Jan 13, 2013 4:58 pm

I've also played about 10 sessions so far and have yet to see a wizard be corrupted.
Fighter fumbles on the other hand...

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Re: clarification on Mighty Deeds of Arms

Post by Gameogre » Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:36 pm

Wow!

Really?

WOW!

My players just must have bad luck!

The Wizard in our group is all messed up...though its not so bad I guess as he likes it.

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Re: clarification on Mighty Deeds of Arms

Post by Dark Lord » Sun Jan 13, 2013 5:54 pm

How long have you played? We've only played 10 games or so, and our players have avoided stuff like that with Luck and Spellburn. Maybe down the road it will be more common, but so far we don't have any corruption.

I mean, to get it you have to roll a 1, then you have like 50% shot on most spells to avoid it...and beyond that you can prevent it with Luck and Spellburn. that's pretty long odds. I don't know why I would expect to have a lot of it after this little bit.

Perhaps you should remind your players to use Luck? Or maybe they don't have a halfling?

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Re: clarification on Mighty Deeds of Arms

Post by Dark Lord » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:01 pm

Blood Axe wrote:So you have played a game where each fighter/dwarf has declared some mighty deed with every attack?? Seems overkill. Its not special if you are tryig to do it all the time.
First of all, as I said, according to the rules when they don't declare it, it goes to their default attack. So yes, it happens every turn, no they don't declare something amazing every turn.
I felt I was pretty clear about that.

Second, why does this have to be something special? The Fighter knows how to fight. Big deal. Do you limit the number of times they can Power Attack in d20? Do you stop the Ranger from using duel wielded weapons because it's "overkill"?

I don't really see what the problem is. The rules as written state that if the fighter doesn't declare one he has a signature move. The guys in my game use defensive fighting. It's not a flashy move, and it helps out. It doesn't slow my game down at all. Maybe your game is different, but I don't even bother with it. They know what their AC is, and I don't need to monitor every minor detail like what their current AC is.
Blood Axe wrote:Speculating & discussing something doesnt mean you are wrong. (or right
Don't remember when I said anything of the sort. Not sure what the implication is for.

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Re: clarification on Mighty Deeds of Arms

Post by Dark Lord » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:07 pm

RevTurkey wrote:I think the risk factors in play come more from the 9 headed frog demon of doom trying to squish the fighter enjoying doing all these cool things and not from some mechanical system.
This. The fighter is the front line guy, and most of the time in DCC you can go from full health to dead in one blow. I think if you're NOT fighting like a maniac, you're a crappy fighter.

My players quite often use their Mighty Deeds to set the thief up for a sneak attack. Likewise, using Deeds keeps the attention on them and away from the Wizards and party members of a more delicate nature.

I think if somebody at our table stated they didn't want to use their abilities to the fullest (by AT LEAST using their signature move) the other players would be annoyed. What Warrior is not going to AT LEAST declare Defensive Fighting? How does that even slow the game down?

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Re: clarification on Mighty Deeds of Arms

Post by Blood Axe » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:26 pm

Dark Lord you are perceiving insults where there are none meant, so ill let others discuss this. But obviously everyone doesn't see it the same way.
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Re: clarification on Mighty Deeds of Arms

Post by Dark Lord » Sun Jan 13, 2013 6:38 pm

Blood Axe wrote:Dark Lord you are perceiving insults where there are none meant, so ill let others discuss this. But obviously everyone doesn't see it the same way.
Have fun.
That's my point, and why I was questioning you on it. I don't perceive an insult, but I am wondering why you seem to think I am not allowing others to play the game the way they wish? I responded to a question about Mighty Deeds. I gave my opinion, and stated that I play the rules as written.

I don't see how my responses were any different than yours. I simply stated that playing by the rules has not seen any slowing down of the game at our table. To which you replied,
So you have played a game where each fighter/dwarf has declared some mighty deed with every attack?? Seems overkill. Its not special if you are tryig to do it all the time.
It seems to me, you're the one telling me I am having badwrongfun, and not the other way around. Which is why I asked about your implication. I haven't perceived an insult. I have asked you to clarify your statement of
"Speculating & discussing something doesnt mean you are wrong. (or right)"
That insinuates that I believe I am right, and no other opinion can exists. I don't feel like it's out of line to ask where you saw me state something like that. I just don't see where I stated my way was the only way. If you feel I have told somebody that what they are doing is wrong, then please show me where I did so, and ask me to clarify, as I have done to you. But making an implication, and then leaving when I ask you about it is not going to resolve anything. Please show me where I stated something differently than the way you did. I would like to resolve this.
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Re: clarification on Mighty Deeds of Arms

Post by Gameogre » Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:06 pm

We are on our 43rd game with this party though MANY of them have not been around that long. Some of our games last 2-3 hours and some 12 hours or longer. Our Wizard has not only gotten himself killed from casting but twice taken others out with him. The Wizards luck score is now 5.

They have a magic mirror that allows them to clone anyone who was in the image reflected in the mirror within the last month. When the dead are brought back they are (different) sometimes Chaotic,sometimes with a overwhelming desire to go somewhere or do something. Once they used the mirror on a dead party member and found out later that the member wasn't dead. The Clone then hunted him down and killed him(along with two other party members and reset the mirror so that they could not return.

The corruption of the wizard isn't the worst part its the side effects. Off the top of my head.

Wizard bursts into flame. A rather minor effect other than he happened to be sitting on top of a wagon load of lamp oil at the time.

Wizard is in the middle of trying to convince the outraged villagers that the party are NOT minions of Chaos then grows huge elephant like ears.

Misfires-Instead of casting the spell wanted he casts fireball,while climbing up a rope in a narrow shaft. While engaged in a running battle against mud-men turned the cleric into a horse. While flying over a enemy camp to mount a rescue mission accidentally misfires and rained poisoned snakes down on the enemy! Killing most of them! Sadly most of the people there were trying to rescue as well.

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Re: clarification on Mighty Deeds of Arms

Post by cthulhudarren » Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:43 am

ecz wrote:Assuming a Warrior rolls one d6 as deed die, a deed is successfull if he rolls 3 or better on the d6 AND he hits (pag. 88). This is clear enough.
But what happens if the warrior hits the target but fails the deed (rolling 1 or 2 on the deed die?). It's a hit or a miss?

I think the hit lands normally although the deed is missed (no extra result or damage).
No one had mentioned this, but the warrior still gets the deed die result as an addition to attack and damage, even with no deed. So if he declares a trip as the deed, rolls say a 19 on the d20 and a 1 on the d3 deed die, he gets +1 attack and +1 damage if he hits, but no deed result.

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Re: clarification on Mighty Deeds of Arms

Post by ecz » Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:02 am

cthulhudarren wrote:
ecz wrote:Assuming a Warrior rolls one d6 as deed die, a deed is successfull if he rolls 3 or better on the d6 AND he hits (pag. 88). This is clear enough.
But what happens if the warrior hits the target but fails the deed (rolling 1 or 2 on the deed die?). It's a hit or a miss?

I think the hit lands normally although the deed is missed (no extra result or damage).
No one had mentioned this, but the warrior still gets the deed die result as an addition to attack and damage, even with no deed. So if he declares a trip as the deed, rolls say a 19 on the d20 and a 1 on the d3 deed die, he gets +1 attack and +1 damage if he hits, but no deed result.
yes I know this.
My doubts were elsewhere as I said later.
thank you for the explanation.
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