Half-Levels

[Raven_Crowking]

http://ravencrowking.blogspot.ca/2012/1 ... evels.html

An Optional Multi-Classing System for the Dungeon Crawl Classics Game. Comments would be welcome.

[TheNobleDrake]

Questions: If a character decides to multi-class in this system are they limited to the half-level dip, or is this just a stepping stone before they are able to take level 1 in the 2nd class?

When does the decision to take a half-level occur? Is it deciding to be 1/2 Warrior and 1/2 Wizard upon reaching level 1, or something more like being level 1 and instead of ascending to level 2 you reach level 1 and 1/2?

How does experience work for the character? Split, not split, simultaneous advancement in both classes, or improvement in level of each class individually chosen when gaining a level... or some other method?

Statements: Unless you are changing the rule that any character can attempt to read a spell from a scroll regardless of class with a d10 for the spell check, you may wish to append a clause to the 1/2 thief level that only Neutral thieves actually reduce the die size for casting spells from scrolls.

Overall I like the way in which you are trying to do a system where you seem to have a lot of your main class and a little of another, rather than all of both or a little of both.

[Raven_Crowking]

The idea is that the half-level dip is a stepping stone to the other class. I.e., for an elf to become a 1st level Warrior requires that he sacrifice two levels (although he gains full hp from both); thereafter, he can progress in either the Elf or Warrior class.

Thanks for the note on spell scrolls.

[Raven_Crowking]

Revised and updated: http://ravencrowking.blogspot.ca/2012/1 ... evels.html

[dark cauliflower]

what if a warrior wants to be an Elf? I know it seems absurd but in The Broken Sword, Skafloc was a human who was Elf!

Are there maximum levels a multi can ascend to?

[Raven_Crowking]

what if a warrior wants to be an Elf? I know it seems absurd but in The Broken Sword, Skafloc was a human who was Elf!

I think that would fall under the judge's decision to make special characters. I do think that allowing special character types as a reward for completing (or even undertaking) a specific adventure is A-okay. I do not think that allowing a human to be an Elf, in general, is a good idea.

Are there maximum levels a multi can ascend to?

The maximum level a multi can ascend to is 8 in a given class, because the half-level takes the place of one level, and you aren't a multi if you don't have a class level in something else. But an elf warrior could be 9th level, if she had no elf levels.

[TheNobleDrake]

I dig the revisions, and like the system overall.

I may consider adding it to my home games - once I have solidly finished establishing my class list (dropped demi-human classes to separate race & class an allow for racial expansion for campaign setting needs without trying to write a unique class for each, added a Monk class of the exotic martial artist sort that the group is play-testing now, and am about 20% done with an initial write up of a AD&D 2e style Psion class).

Edit: Correction, I dig the revisions - not I did the revisions - my fingers are stupid.

[Raven_Crowking]

I dig the revisions, and like the system overall.

Thanks!

I was planning on doing a monk and psychic as well!

[cthulhudarren]

This is really good stuff, RC!

Comments:
I am used to powergamers so I'm thinking of this in terms of making the most powerful characters...

Have you experimented with building multiclassed characters and comparing in power to non multiclassed characters of the same XP? Theoretically IMHO you would want the multiclassed character to sacrifice some power for utility.

I can not think of why any character would not want to dip into thief, their luck regen is just too good to pass up.

Demihumans don't have any penalties for multiclassing at all? Again, everyone except halflings should dip into thief.

[Raven_Crowking]

This is really good stuff, RC!

Thanks.

Comments:
I am used to powergamers so I'm thinking of this in terms of making the most powerful characters...

Have you experimented with building multiclassed characters and comparing in power to non multiclassed characters of the same XP? Theoretically IMHO you would want the multiclassed character to sacrifice some power for utility.

I can not think of why any character would not want to dip into thief, their luck regen is just too good to pass up.

Demihumans don't have any penalties for multiclassing at all? Again, everyone except halflings should dip into thief.

A couple of thoughts:

First off, the game I am running right now is pretty slow to level. So, in order to get that half-level in Thief, you end up a level behind everyone else in everything but hit points. The Thief ability to regenerate Luck is really nice, but it is also ultimately up to the judge how much you have.

Worse, the Deed Die (for example) keeps going, while there is a rather hard limit to the Luck you can spend, marked right there on your character sheet. Once you've used it, it's gone, and replacing it takes time. And your chance of surviving at 0 hp has gone way down, too.

My players, at least, are very leery of the cost. Even though DCC classes are very front-loaded, since it takes exponentially longer to gain levels, missing some to gain breadth is not seen as an obvious choice. In fact, I hear that I will never see a triple-classed PC at my table.

A final thought - many, many of the Appendix N heroes seem to have dipped into Thief for that half-level....or have even gone on to take the full level. I don't think it will break the game, or even break the feel of the game. YMMV, and, as always, the judge has the final say!

RC

[cthulhudarren]

Oh yeah, most of the Appendix N heroes did seem to have some thief about them. Conan is one of the best examples.

Still, the thief luck mechanic is just so good I can see most players wanting to dip into it. Perhaps not casters as much.

[Raven_Crowking]

Well, fear no rule, esp. no house rule! If you want to change it at your table, do so!

[cthulhudarren]

Well, fear no rule, esp. no house rule! If you want to change it at your table, do so!

Oh, make no mistake, I have nothing better! I would just have to keep this in mind.

[Raven_Crowking]

Well, fear no rule, esp. no house rule! If you want to change it at your table, do so!

Oh, make no mistake, I have nothing better! I would just have to keep this in mind.

Are your players making all thieves right now?

Take a look at the Warrior's Deed Die as a counter-example. He gets to use it every single round, and the ability never needs to be refreshed. Regenerating Luck is cool, but is it better than having that Deed Die grow? Likewise, Caster Level is a permanent +1 bonus per level, and the ability to gain new, and higher-level, spells is ultimately impeded by taking a half-level in Thief. If you go for the whole level, you've lost two XP levels that could be used toward Wizard or Elf. The max limit of 10 levels still applies. If you've taken a half-level, you will never be more than 9th in your primary.

I tried to present half-levels as a kind of Faustian bargain....good enough to consider, but ultimately not good enough to necessarily want. Whether or not I have achieved that is, of course, a whole 'nother question!

(I don't guarantee that the PCs will get a chance to rest up between adventures, BTW. Sometimes B follows right after A, so assuming that you can burn all of your Luck and then have time to get it back doesn't always pan out.)

You might consider making regeneration of Luck contingent upon a full Thief level (i.e., the PC must sacrifice two levels). It will make the bargain a bit pricier for the would-be Warrior/Thief, and a bit less of an obvious choice. Or you might let them all take a Thief half-level and then see how they do in level-appropriate modules first, as an experiment.


RC

[cthulhudarren]

You might consider making regeneration of Luck contingent upon a full Thief level (i.e., the PC must sacrifice two levels). It will make the bargain a bit pricier for the would-be Warrior/Thief, and a bit less of an obvious choice.

RC

Oh hells yes, you must take a full level of thief before you get the backstab or luck regen. Zero level you'd get 1/2 of the first level mods for thieving skills and read a spell from scroll at d10.

[Skyscraper]

This looks like a very interesting rule.

Question: I'm unsure what the "caster level 0" refers to in the class descriptions. I assume you mean this to be effective for a half-level taken in a given class, is that correct? This means that a level 1 warrior who takes a half level in wizard is considered "level 0" in wizard? Can you provide an example of where this would be important, since all spellcasting comes at level 1 anyway (i.e. after that half-level trade-off is paid).

Thanks,

Sky

[Raven_Crowking]

Take a closer look at the chart....2 spells if you take 1/2 level.

Every half level is intended to be "kinda" worth taking, and, once you've taken it, going on to the full level is also "kinda" worthwhile. Just enough to suck you in, so that you are a third level Thief 1/Wizard 1 wondering why you aren't as cool as the 3rd level Warrior with his frequently-successful Mighty Deeds.

[Skyscraper]

Take a closer look at the chart....2 spells if you take 1/2 level.

Every half level is intended to be "kinda" worth taking, and, once you've taken it, going on to the full level is also "kinda" worthwhile. Just enough to suck you in, so that you are a third level Thief 1/Wizard 1 wondering why you aren't as cool as the 3rd level Warrior with his frequently-successful Mighty Deeds.

Gotcha.

Have you playtested your multiclass rules, or got playtest feedback from it, yet?

[Raven_Crowking]

Lots of feedback, but no player of mine is willing to take the hit. Yet.

[Skyscraper]

Lots of feedback, but no player of mine is willing to take the hit. Yet.

Assuming the Tempesta online game continues, and that my PCs survive, I might be tempted to try your multiclass houserule with at least one of them, if you accept.

[Raven_Crowking]

Lots of feedback, but no player of mine is willing to take the hit. Yet.

Assuming the Tempesta online game continues, and that my PCs survive, I might be tempted to try your multiclass houserule with at least one of them, if you accept.

Sounds good.

[GnomeBoy]

[Assuming the Tempesta online game continues, and that my PCs survive, I might be tempted to try your multiclass houserule with at least one of them, if you accept.

I'd be willing to do this, just to test out the system...