Deed actions that would insta-kill an enemy

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Ravenheart87
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Re: Deed actions that would insta-kill an enemy

Post by Ravenheart87 » Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:15 am

Dark Lord wrote:Only because you can't step sideways in fencing. :lol:
There are many situations when you can't step sideways. :)
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Re: Deed actions that would insta-kill an enemy

Post by Raven_Crowking » Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:34 am

Dark Lord wrote:My mileage does vary because I have watched sumo wrestling, which is what we're talking about.
:shock:

Must have missed that part. Why on earth are sumo wrestlers using swords and shields?

:shock:
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Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.

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Re: Deed actions that would insta-kill an enemy

Post by Raven_Crowking » Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:37 am

Ravenheart87 wrote:
Dark Lord wrote:Only because you can't step sideways in fencing. :lol:
There are many situations when you can't step sideways. :)
True.

I have done more than a little "fun with swords", and it is my experience that where you move can be dictated as much by what you are trying to avoid as it is by where you wish to end up. But, like I said, you can try this at home easily enough.

In the case of sumo wrestlers, I imagine that the Deed rules already cover allowing saves for near-equal opponents, so I am envisioning each of them attempting a Deed and a save each round, until one gets unlucky. But I don't watch sumo wrestling, so I probably don't know what I am talking about there.

RC
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Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.

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Re: Deed actions that would insta-kill an enemy

Post by AQuebman » Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:41 am

The beauty of fantasy battle that's different then fencing or sumo is the attacker generally has no clue what to expect they have to react quickly which makes the toppling the cultist over the side much more likely.

Also the part of People of the Pit that i'm thinking of is at the very beginning there's a 5 foot rim of stairs so everyone is on the edge ready to fall to a miserable death. The book also gives the DC of 12 for an Agility check to pass people or move over half speed so they really push that it's moist misty and treacherous terrain.

Also I can tell you even prepared if a Sumo rushes at me i'm going backwards and quickly. Same can be said from most linemen in the NFL.

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Re: Deed actions that would insta-kill an enemy

Post by Dark Lord » Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:25 pm

AQuebman wrote:The beauty of fantasy battle that's different then fencing or sumo is the attacker generally has no clue what to expect they have to react quickly which makes the toppling the cultist over the side much more likely.
As well as the player doing the shoving. Which is what I said.
AQuebman wrote:Also the part of People of the Pit that i'm thinking of is at the very beginning there's a 5 foot rim of stairs so everyone is on the edge ready to fall to a miserable death. The book also gives the DC of 12 for an Agility check to pass people or move over half speed so they really push that it's moist misty and treacherous terrain.
And clearly, once one goes over they all stand there brainless like video game enemies and wait their turn. Which...again...is why I said they would move away, and resist so the while first would be easy the following ones would not.
Also I can tell you even prepared if a Sumo rushes at me i'm going backwards and quickly. Same can be said from most linemen in the NFL.
So which linemen go flying backward in the NFL from just one blow. Good thing the NFL doesn't need any rules to govern what happens when shoving turns into grabbing and holding. I mean, that never comes up. :lol:

I'm pretty sure what happens in the NFL is EXACTLY what I described. The ball is snapped, the linemen collide, and the O-line goes backward...but only so far as they are being shoved. And frequently they sidestep and let the shover fall on his face. I have yet to see a Defensive lineman hit an Offensive Lineman, and cause him to fly backward two yards from a single blow. A shield bash or push is only going to shove somebody back as far as the shove is maintained.

I don't know what physics you subscribe to but the physics I know does not allow somebody to run full speed, collide with another, stop immediately at the point of collision, and then allow the person who took the blow to fly backward two yards.

That's not reality. Transfer or momentum doesn't allow you to stop on a dime from a charge, and even if it did, the other people watching would never just stand there waiting for you to do it to them.

Play it how you want to, my 2 cents is that it would be allowed in my game, but there would be risk involved to the attacker.

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Re: Deed actions that would insta-kill an enemy

Post by AQuebman » Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:02 pm

Dark Lord wrote:
AQuebman wrote:The beauty of fantasy battle that's different then fencing or sumo is the attacker generally has no clue what to expect they have to react quickly which makes the toppling the cultist over the side much more likely.
As well as the player doing the shoving. Which is what I said.
AQuebman wrote:Also the part of People of the Pit that i'm thinking of is at the very beginning there's a 5 foot rim of stairs so everyone is on the edge ready to fall to a miserable death. The book also gives the DC of 12 for an Agility check to pass people or move over half speed so they really push that it's moist misty and treacherous terrain.
And clearly, once one goes over they all stand there brainless like video game enemies and wait their turn. Which...again...is why I said they would move away, and resist so the while first would be easy the following ones would not.
Also I can tell you even prepared if a Sumo rushes at me i'm going backwards and quickly. Same can be said from most linemen in the NFL.
So which linemen go flying backward in the NFL from just one blow. Good thing the NFL doesn't need any rules to govern what happens when shoving turns into grabbing and holding. I mean, that never comes up. :lol:

I'm pretty sure what happens in the NFL is EXACTLY what I described. The ball is snapped, the linemen collide, and the O-line goes backward...but only so far as they are being shoved. And frequently they sidestep and let the shover fall on his face. I have yet to see a Defensive lineman hit an Offensive Lineman, and cause him to fly backward two yards from a single blow. A shield bash or push is only going to shove somebody back as far as the shove is maintained.

I don't know what physics you subscribe to but the physics I know does not allow somebody to run full speed, collide with another, stop immediately at the point of collision, and then allow the person who took the blow to fly backward two yards.

That's not reality. Transfer or momentum doesn't allow you to stop on a dime from a charge, and even if it did, the other people watching would never just stand there waiting for you to do it to them.

Play it how you want to, my 2 cents is that it would be allowed in my game, but there would be risk involved to the attacker.

I never said the enemies stand there brainless like a video game that's stupid. In the module mentioned 4 of them are chanting to summon a tentacle and toss characters into the pit while 1 cultist at a time tries to fend off the party until they drop below 3.

As far as the NFL I don't know what games your watching but I see prepared guys get put down on their ass shoved backwards 5 yards frequently from the best D-linemen out there and that's without weaponry. It matters not we can each run our games how we wish and both will be fine, no need letting this turn into a silly flame war about sumo wrestlers and fantasy characters falling in a pit. From a mechanics standpoint I would just say be careful so that the dwarf/fighter's of the party don't feel like they are getting their balls chopped off when that's their one mechanic that makes them on par and really cool.

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Re: Deed actions that would insta-kill an enemy

Post by Dark Lord » Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:53 pm

AQuebman wrote:As far as the NFL I don't know what games your watching but I see prepared guys get put down on their ass shoved backwards 5 yards frequently from the best D-linemen out there and that's without weaponry.
Could you please link to a video of this happening? Remember, I said that they couldn't shove them, and the stop while the other goes flying backward 5 yards. (I actually said 2 yards). I have never in my life seen a 400lb lineman go backward 15 feet without somebody shoving him the whole way. Which...if you're talking about shoving him over a cliff, means the attacker would have a chance to fall in too.
Just show me the video of the huge lineman being knocked backward 5 yards while the defensive lineman remains where contact was made. That would be easy to find if it existed, I would think, because it would be amazing.
AQuebman wrote:It matters not we can each run our games how we wish and both will be fine, no need letting this turn into a silly flame war about sumo wrestlers and fantasy characters falling in a pit. From a mechanics standpoint I would just say be careful so that the dwarf/fighter's of the party don't feel like they are getting their balls chopped off when that's their one mechanic that makes them on par and really cool.
Never flamed you at all. Why are my responses flames, and yours discussion? :roll:

It doesn't really matter at all, because I don't care how you run your game. But you countered my suggestion at first because you said you wanted realism. Then you stated that it was fantasy heroic deeds that you wanted, and again stated that what I was saying was not going to work.

I have only ever stated how I would run it in my games. Run yours as you please.
Cheers.

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Re: Deed actions that would insta-kill an enemy

Post by AQuebman » Fri Jan 25, 2013 9:15 pm

Dark Lord wrote:
AQuebman wrote:As far as the NFL I don't know what games your watching but I see prepared guys get put down on their ass shoved backwards 5 yards frequently from the best D-linemen out there and that's without weaponry.
Could you please link to a video of this happening? Remember, I said that they couldn't shove them, and the stop while the other goes flying backward 5 yards. (I actually said 2 yards). I have never in my life seen a 400lb lineman go backward 15 feet without somebody shoving him the whole way. Which...if you're talking about shoving him over a cliff, means the attacker would have a chance to fall in too.
Just show me the video of the huge lineman being knocked backward 5 yards while the defensive lineman remains where contact was made. That would be easy to find if it existed, I would think, because it would be amazing.
AQuebman wrote:It matters not we can each run our games how we wish and both will be fine, no need letting this turn into a silly flame war about sumo wrestlers and fantasy characters falling in a pit. From a mechanics standpoint I would just say be careful so that the dwarf/fighter's of the party don't feel like they are getting their balls chopped off when that's their one mechanic that makes them on par and really cool.

Never flamed you at all. Why are my responses flames, and yours discussion? :roll:

It doesn't really matter at all, because I don't care how you run your game. But you countered my suggestion at first because you said you wanted realism. Then you stated that it was fantasy heroic deeds that you wanted, and again stated that what I was saying was not going to work.

I have only ever stated how I would run it in my games. Run yours as you please.
Cheers.

My reference to the NFL was merely to show that if in a prepared game of freakish athletes where they know what's coming guys get tossed backwards or get blown up and fall backwards I think it's safe to assume that in combat where everything is unknown and it involves long blades, hammers, and shields that shoving somebody back or disorienting then and booting them backwards wouldn't be all that hard.

I didn't say anything specific about you I said lets not turn this into an argument and you made an assumption. That's all i'll say about that lets just leave it as agree to disagree and move on.

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Re: Deed actions that would insta-kill an enemy

Post by Raven_Crowking » Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:04 am

Why does someone have to get thrown back 2-3 yards to be knocked off a ledge, anyway? :shock:
SoBH pbp:

Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.

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Re: Deed actions that would insta-kill an enemy

Post by GnomeBoy » Sat Jan 26, 2013 4:42 pm

Cliffs. We need real cliffs.
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Re: Deed actions that would insta-kill an enemy

Post by Dark Lord » Sat Jan 26, 2013 11:25 pm

Raven_Crowking wrote:Why does someone have to get thrown back 2-3 yards to be knocked off a ledge, anyway? :shock:
The point was that shoving an enemy backward would result in them grabbing at you, and I said that in my game I wouldn't just allow a single hit to knock somebody off a cliff and would probably allow some rolls for grappling, or at least a roll to avoid going over yourself. The rebuttal was that you can slam into somebody and send them backward 5 yards without danger of falling in, and that sort of thing happens in the NFL. The context of the discussion was should a Deed be usable for an instant kill, and my opinion was no, or at least not without some extra rolling. I used some simple examples or analogies...but as will happen, the context has been forgotten in favor of pointless debate (from both sides) over semantics of the examples, rather than the main point.

You know how these things go...

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Re: Deed actions that would insta-kill an enemy

Post by Raven_Crowking » Sun Jan 27, 2013 8:29 am

Dark Lord wrote:
Raven_Crowking wrote:Why does someone have to get thrown back 2-3 yards to be knocked off a ledge, anyway? :shock:
The point was that shoving an enemy backward would result in them grabbing at you, and I said that in my game I wouldn't just allow a single hit to knock somebody off a cliff and would probably allow some rolls for grappling, or at least a roll to avoid going over yourself. The rebuttal was that you can slam into somebody and send them backward 5 yards without danger of falling in, and that sort of thing happens in the NFL. The context of the discussion was should a Deed be usable for an instant kill, and my opinion was no, or at least not without some extra rolling. I used some simple examples or analogies...but as will happen, the context has been forgotten in favor of pointless debate (from both sides) over semantics of the examples, rather than the main point.

You know how these things go...
I don't know; I think you are maybe talking past each other.

Part of the argument, as I see it, is that if I swing a sword at you, you may well step back to avoid it. Having been involved in this sort of thing, I can easily see it happening. But the deed mechanic does allow you to modify success based upon the competence of the foe, and being grabbed so that you are both in a precarious position is A-Okay with me.

My point is that you are not really arguing the physics of the situation any more, but the plausibility. And plausibility is defined, in part, by experience. I don't think that there is a "right" or a "wrong" way to run this (or, at least, not between your two options), and both may be realistic depending upon framing.
SoBH pbp:

Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.

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Re: Deed actions that would insta-kill an enemy

Post by Dark Lord » Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:07 am

Raven_Crowking wrote:My point is that you are not really arguing the physics of the situation any more, but the plausibility. And plausibility is defined, in part, by experience. I don't think that there is a "right" or a "wrong" way to run this (or, at least, not between your two options), and both may be realistic depending upon framing.
Which has been said, by me, already. As I even said in my reply to you, I don't really care how he runs it. My original statement was simply that I wouldn't allow a Deed to be an instant and unavoidable kill on an enemy unless the pace of the game warranted it. And conversely, the easier and more anti-climactic the scene was to that point would have the most bearing on how easy or difficult I would make it.

I said that...a couple of times.

So I agree with you, and several times also said things like
It doesn't really matter at all, because I don't care how you run your game.
and
Play it how you want to, my 2 cents is that it would be allowed in my game, but there would be risk involved to the attacker.
and
YMMV. :wink:
and in the very first post I was very clear in saying I would handle it different ways depending on how much drama I wanted.

I also stated in my reply to you you that both sides are engaged in a pointless debate about semantics.

So thank you, I agree with what you said. It's been fun the short while I posted here, but I think I'll move on. It's not for me. Seems like every time I post theres a lot less concern about discussing a mutual interest, than there is in debate about "realism" or just doing things correctly. Not my kind of place. Not the way I game.

Live long and prosper. :mrgreen:

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Re: Deed actions that would insta-kill an enemy

Post by Raven_Crowking » Sun Jan 27, 2013 9:23 am

Dark Lord wrote:So thank you, I agree with what you said. It's been fun the short while I posted here, but I think I'll move on. It's not for me. Seems like every time I post theres a lot less concern about discussing a mutual interest, than there is in debate about "realism" or just doing things correctly. Not my kind of place. Not the way I game.

Live long and prosper. :mrgreen:
All the best.
SoBH pbp:

Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.

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Re: Deed actions that would insta-kill an enemy

Post by AQuebman » Thu Feb 21, 2013 7:16 am

Agreed take care.

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