Two Weapon Fighting

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Eyeball360
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Two Weapon Fighting

Post by Eyeball360 »

So am I interpretting things correctly on this? If I am using two weapons, I get two attacks per Action Die, so when I get a second AD, I would get 4 attacks? If so, would you allow a character to take two attacks with their first AD and a single attack with the second one?
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Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Post by Bilgewriggler »

I would have to revisit the wording of the rulebook, but I would tend to think that two-weapon fighting gives you one extra attack per round, not per action die. If your action dice are d20 + d16, then even with a pretty good agility, you're not going to get much mileage out of that second action die unless it's considered independent of the two-weapon fighting.

I suppose you might give the player a choice.

d20 (single-weapon fighting) + d16 (additional attack die)

(d16 + d16) (two-weapon fighting) + d16 (additional attack die)

(d16 + d16) (two-weapon fighting) + (d14 + d 14) (additional attack die, split for TWF)
Purple Planeteers:

Jingles Coinclink, Halfling, hag-hacked into haggis

Nurzual the Faceter – M Jwlr - Wiz - L
S 12 A 8 (-1) S 9 P 11 I 15 (+1) L 10
AC 9 HP 6 Mv 30 Init -1 Ref 0 Fort 0 Will 1
Chalk 1pc, 20 gp Gem, Backpack, 10’ chain, 10 sheets parchment, Kith pouch, small hammer, ray-gun, Rope 50', 5gp 10sp 274 cp
shortsword +0(1d6)
Ch Psn (no MM), Clr Spr 65, Force Manip 81, Rd Mag 12, Spidr Cl 69
Pl.Common (basic)

Snooth Inksplot Scribe RIP under cave-in, a crushing loss

Qort Quiddlegit M Hlr - Cler - N(C?)
S 11 temp 14 (+1) A 11 temp 14 (+1) S 6 (-1) P 5 (-2) I 6 (-1) L 5 (-2)
AC 10 temp 11 HP 8 Mov 30 Init 0 Ref t+1 Fort 0 Will -1
club +0 (1d4+1t) - hand mirror, holy wtr, wtrskin Kith drink 12 oz drunk, 31 cp
-2 Ms fire damage
Det Magic

Brandybland Shoetree F Coblr N
S 10 A 9 S 10 P 8 (-1) I 9 L 9
AC 14 HP 1 Mov 30 Init 0 Ref 0 Fort 0; Will -1
gldtr glaive +0 (1d10) - gldtr ch mail - Fe spike, shoehorn, 48 cp
Prof: dagger
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beermotor
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Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Post by beermotor »

You're forgetting the deed die, Bilgewriggler. Dual wielding on the secondary action die is perfectly viable (particularly as a warrior), because you'll have a d7 to go along with the d14 (stepped down to at least a d12 for dual wielding, assuming high agility). You can still hit a good many target ACs, and might be even more potent given the deeds you could be doing. Assuming a decent initiative result, which isn't a bad assumption because you're probably only dual wielding if you have a high agility, the 5th level warrior starts to look sort of like a Drizz't-like blender o' bladed death... except with deeds! E.g., called shots on first action dice, defensive deed on secondary action dice, rinse-repeat.
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Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Post by cthulhudarren »

No crits allowed though per RAW. Sure might hit alot though at high levels.
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beermotor
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Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Post by beermotor »

Dual wielding longswords, the lack of crits ain't gonna matter, I don't think. Well, I guess as you go up in level, the crits get better. So I guess you can just pretend the called shots are crits. :-)

Or go Full Conan and use a two-hander.
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beermotor
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Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Post by beermotor »

Also,


THIS CONVERSATION IS TOTALLY NOT MINMAXING. :oops:
cthulhudarren
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Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Post by cthulhudarren »

beermotor wrote:Also,


THIS CONVERSATION IS TOTALLY NOT MINMAXING. :oops:
Yes it is. Which means my group would totally try it. I would not allow crits though, as you said as you go up in level crits get awesome.
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Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Post by Bilgewriggler »

I was half-forgetting the deed die and half-ignoring it because at higher levels you're probably fighting stuff with higher armor classes, so you need the bigger deed die to be able to hit.

Although of course not interested in min-maxing at all, I decided to make a spreadsheet to calculate the probabilities of hitting with TWF and without at various levels. Basically, the result was this: for an armor class that you can hit with a d16, you're always better off dual wielding. In other words, at 1st level, for AC 10-16, a warrior with a d3 deed die has a better chance of landing at least one blow if dual wielding than if fighting one-handed. And since you crit on a 16, you actually have a better chance of critting than if you're single-wielding.

Once you cross that AC 16 line, though, you basically never want to dual wield, as it absolutely kills your chance of hitting.

The basic pattern holds true at higher levels too, though I didn't factor into my calculations the line from the rules that says dual-wielding reduces your off-hand deed die as well.
Purple Planeteers:

Jingles Coinclink, Halfling, hag-hacked into haggis

Nurzual the Faceter – M Jwlr - Wiz - L
S 12 A 8 (-1) S 9 P 11 I 15 (+1) L 10
AC 9 HP 6 Mv 30 Init -1 Ref 0 Fort 0 Will 1
Chalk 1pc, 20 gp Gem, Backpack, 10’ chain, 10 sheets parchment, Kith pouch, small hammer, ray-gun, Rope 50', 5gp 10sp 274 cp
shortsword +0(1d6)
Ch Psn (no MM), Clr Spr 65, Force Manip 81, Rd Mag 12, Spidr Cl 69
Pl.Common (basic)

Snooth Inksplot Scribe RIP under cave-in, a crushing loss

Qort Quiddlegit M Hlr - Cler - N(C?)
S 11 temp 14 (+1) A 11 temp 14 (+1) S 6 (-1) P 5 (-2) I 6 (-1) L 5 (-2)
AC 10 temp 11 HP 8 Mov 30 Init 0 Ref t+1 Fort 0 Will -1
club +0 (1d4+1t) - hand mirror, holy wtr, wtrskin Kith drink 12 oz drunk, 31 cp
-2 Ms fire damage
Det Magic

Brandybland Shoetree F Coblr N
S 10 A 9 S 10 P 8 (-1) I 9 L 9
AC 14 HP 1 Mov 30 Init 0 Ref 0 Fort 0; Will -1
gldtr glaive +0 (1d10) - gldtr ch mail - Fe spike, shoehorn, 48 cp
Prof: dagger
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beermotor
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Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Post by beermotor »

Hey I'd be interested in seeing your spreadsheet. Can you post it?
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Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Post by cthulhudarren »

Bilgewriggler wrote:And since you crit on a 16, you actually have a better chance of critting than if you're single-wielding.
You do not crit on a 16 on a d16.
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Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Post by GnomeBoy »

cthulhudarren wrote:You do not crit on a 16 on a d16, unless you are a Halfling.
Fixed that for you. :wink:
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cthulhudarren
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Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Post by cthulhudarren »

GnomeBoy wrote:
cthulhudarren wrote:You do not crit on a 16 on a d16, unless you are a Halfling.
Fixed that for you. :wink:
Yes! I was just trying to help discourage warriors from power gaming.
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Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Post by Bilgewriggler »

cthulhudarren wrote:
Bilgewriggler wrote:And since you crit on a 16, you actually have a better chance of critting than if you're single-wielding.
You do not crit on a 16 on a d16.
A 16 is not an auto-hit for non-halflings, but it is a crit if you hit.
Purple Planeteers:

Jingles Coinclink, Halfling, hag-hacked into haggis

Nurzual the Faceter – M Jwlr - Wiz - L
S 12 A 8 (-1) S 9 P 11 I 15 (+1) L 10
AC 9 HP 6 Mv 30 Init -1 Ref 0 Fort 0 Will 1
Chalk 1pc, 20 gp Gem, Backpack, 10’ chain, 10 sheets parchment, Kith pouch, small hammer, ray-gun, Rope 50', 5gp 10sp 274 cp
shortsword +0(1d6)
Ch Psn (no MM), Clr Spr 65, Force Manip 81, Rd Mag 12, Spidr Cl 69
Pl.Common (basic)

Snooth Inksplot Scribe RIP under cave-in, a crushing loss

Qort Quiddlegit M Hlr - Cler - N(C?)
S 11 temp 14 (+1) A 11 temp 14 (+1) S 6 (-1) P 5 (-2) I 6 (-1) L 5 (-2)
AC 10 temp 11 HP 8 Mov 30 Init 0 Ref t+1 Fort 0 Will -1
club +0 (1d4+1t) - hand mirror, holy wtr, wtrskin Kith drink 12 oz drunk, 31 cp
-2 Ms fire damage
Det Magic

Brandybland Shoetree F Coblr N
S 10 A 9 S 10 P 8 (-1) I 9 L 9
AC 14 HP 1 Mov 30 Init 0 Ref 0 Fort 0; Will -1
gldtr glaive +0 (1d10) - gldtr ch mail - Fe spike, shoehorn, 48 cp
Prof: dagger
cthulhudarren
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Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Post by cthulhudarren »

Bilgewriggler wrote:
cthulhudarren wrote:
Bilgewriggler wrote:And since you crit on a 16, you actually have a better chance of critting than if you're single-wielding.
You do not crit on a 16 on a d16.
A 16 is not an auto-hit for non-halflings, but it is a crit if you hit.
For halflings only. Otherwise you need a very high agility.
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Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Post by Bilgewriggler »

cthulhudarren wrote:
For halflings only. Otherwise you need a very high agility.
So we're both right! :)
Purple Planeteers:

Jingles Coinclink, Halfling, hag-hacked into haggis

Nurzual the Faceter – M Jwlr - Wiz - L
S 12 A 8 (-1) S 9 P 11 I 15 (+1) L 10
AC 9 HP 6 Mv 30 Init -1 Ref 0 Fort 0 Will 1
Chalk 1pc, 20 gp Gem, Backpack, 10’ chain, 10 sheets parchment, Kith pouch, small hammer, ray-gun, Rope 50', 5gp 10sp 274 cp
shortsword +0(1d6)
Ch Psn (no MM), Clr Spr 65, Force Manip 81, Rd Mag 12, Spidr Cl 69
Pl.Common (basic)

Snooth Inksplot Scribe RIP under cave-in, a crushing loss

Qort Quiddlegit M Hlr - Cler - N(C?)
S 11 temp 14 (+1) A 11 temp 14 (+1) S 6 (-1) P 5 (-2) I 6 (-1) L 5 (-2)
AC 10 temp 11 HP 8 Mov 30 Init 0 Ref t+1 Fort 0 Will -1
club +0 (1d4+1t) - hand mirror, holy wtr, wtrskin Kith drink 12 oz drunk, 31 cp
-2 Ms fire damage
Det Magic

Brandybland Shoetree F Coblr N
S 10 A 9 S 10 P 8 (-1) I 9 L 9
AC 14 HP 1 Mov 30 Init 0 Ref 0 Fort 0; Will -1
gldtr glaive +0 (1d10) - gldtr ch mail - Fe spike, shoehorn, 48 cp
Prof: dagger
cthulhudarren
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Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Post by cthulhudarren »

Bilgewriggler wrote:
cthulhudarren wrote:
For halflings only. Otherwise you need a very high agility.
So we're both right! :)
Always!
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beermotor
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Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Post by beermotor »

Okay so minmax me this, bros.

Character with 17 Strength, 18 Agility. Very likely to choose Warrior at level 1, although Cleric or Wizard or Thief are all possibilities. Charmed House was his Lucky Roll, and he has a 13 Luck, so base AC is 14 (!). So the question is, to dual wield or not to dual wield... if he doesn't dual wield, it seems like a two-handed battle axe or two-handed sword is the best way to go, but maybe a pole arm of some kind wouldn't suck, for reach purposes?

Or, hold a javelin / spear in each hand... throw them both on round one, then whip out the two-handed sword off the back and melee... ?

I suppose there's another possibility: could be a ranged-weapon type guy. But I would think he'd want to throw stuff, versus shoot bows or crossbows, because of the nice Strength bonus.

So what's the best option for him? Also, what's got the most Appendix N style? (The latter question has me leaning away from dual wielding, frankly, and towards a two-handed sword.)
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Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Post by cthulhudarren »

beermotor wrote:Okay so minmax me this, bros.

Character with 17 Strength, 18 Agility. Very likely to choose Warrior at level 1, although Cleric or Wizard or Thief are all possibilities. Charmed House was his Lucky Roll, and he has a 13 Luck, so base AC is 14 (!). So the question is, to dual wield or not to dual wield... if he doesn't dual wield, it seems like a two-handed battle axe or two-handed sword is the best way to go, but maybe a pole arm of some kind wouldn't suck, for reach purposes?

Or, hold a javelin / spear in each hand... throw them both on round one, then whip out the two-handed sword off the back and melee... ?

I suppose there's another possibility: could be a ranged-weapon type guy. But I would think he'd want to throw stuff, versus shoot bows or crossbows, because of the nice Strength bonus.

So what's the best option for him? Also, what's got the most Appendix N style? (The latter question has me leaning away from dual wielding, frankly, and towards a two-handed sword.)
I'd check for loaded dice! I'd lean towards dual wielding with that agility. Or dual hand axes, so they can be thrown. Just not scimitars. Not ever.
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Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Post by Colin »

beermotor wrote:Also, what's got the most Appendix N style? (The latter question has me leaning away from dual wielding, frankly, and towards a two-handed sword.)
Dual-wielding is very much part of Appendix N. Just look at Fritz Leiber's Lankhmar work for one example (both Fafhrd and Gray Mouser routinely dual-wielded, Fafhrd with a long sword and dagger or hand axe, Mouser with sabre and dagger). We just tend to have developed an allergy to it because of the hideous tales of a dual-scimitar-wielding dark elf who was constantly using, "his innate drow powers", and the number of godawful creatively-challenged copycat players that sprang up thereafter.

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Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Post by beermotor »

But... but... CONAN.

So, theoretically, since w/ 18 Agility he'd crit as normal on the primary weapon, I guess there's no "game benefit" to be gained from wielding a two-hander. Unless he happens to come across a particularly badass one.

Longsword / Javelins looks like a great combo, actually. Maybe I should rename this character Achilles. 3 or 4 javelins in a quiver on his back, can be thrown at start of combat, then draw another for melee to use as offhand. I'm guessing javelin would qualify as a "light" weapon similar to a dagger/handaxe/shortsword?
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Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Post by Colin »

I'd allow a javelin as a Light weapon (1d6 damage the same as a short sword).

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Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Post by Bilgewriggler »

You're getting ahead of yourself. Based on my group's experiences with great fresh-rolled characters, that guy's going to die with 9 xp in the last scene of the funnel.
Purple Planeteers:

Jingles Coinclink, Halfling, hag-hacked into haggis

Nurzual the Faceter – M Jwlr - Wiz - L
S 12 A 8 (-1) S 9 P 11 I 15 (+1) L 10
AC 9 HP 6 Mv 30 Init -1 Ref 0 Fort 0 Will 1
Chalk 1pc, 20 gp Gem, Backpack, 10’ chain, 10 sheets parchment, Kith pouch, small hammer, ray-gun, Rope 50', 5gp 10sp 274 cp
shortsword +0(1d6)
Ch Psn (no MM), Clr Spr 65, Force Manip 81, Rd Mag 12, Spidr Cl 69
Pl.Common (basic)

Snooth Inksplot Scribe RIP under cave-in, a crushing loss

Qort Quiddlegit M Hlr - Cler - N(C?)
S 11 temp 14 (+1) A 11 temp 14 (+1) S 6 (-1) P 5 (-2) I 6 (-1) L 5 (-2)
AC 10 temp 11 HP 8 Mov 30 Init 0 Ref t+1 Fort 0 Will -1
club +0 (1d4+1t) - hand mirror, holy wtr, wtrskin Kith drink 12 oz drunk, 31 cp
-2 Ms fire damage
Det Magic

Brandybland Shoetree F Coblr N
S 10 A 9 S 10 P 8 (-1) I 9 L 9
AC 14 HP 1 Mov 30 Init 0 Ref 0 Fort 0; Will -1
gldtr glaive +0 (1d10) - gldtr ch mail - Fe spike, shoehorn, 48 cp
Prof: dagger
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beermotor
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Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Post by beermotor »

Nah. We've got some level 1s already. He should survive to 1. After that is probably up in the air. He's definitely got a big dose of the paladin archetype. We'll see if he can measure up.
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Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Post by Raven_Crowking »

beermotor wrote:Nah. We've got some level 1s already. He should survive to 1.
Famous last words! :lol:

I am certainly rooting for you, although the dice will always fall where they may..... :D
SoBH pbp:

Cathbad the Meek (herbalist Wizard 1): AC 9; 4 hp; S 7, A 7, St 10, P 17, I 13, L 8; Neutral; Club, herbs, 50' rope, 50 cp; -1 to melee attack rolls. Hideous scar.
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Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Post by TheNobleDrake »

beermotor wrote:Okay so minmax me this, bros. <snip>
I think the answer is simple: carry as many weapons with different uses as the Judge will allow and use the one that is best for the situation:

Bunch of "mooks" - dual wield and take out 2 an action.
One big nasty - keep at range, you are more accurate and you don't want to let it take your super-dude away so easily.
Tricky terrain - probably a good time for that pole-arm.
Narrow cave - this is why you always carry a dagger or spear.
Under water - spears are great here too.
A horde of competent warrior types or beasts - and you pack a shield, too.
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