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Two Weapon Fighting

Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 4:51 am
by Eyeball360
So am I interpretting things correctly on this? If I am using two weapons, I get two attacks per Action Die, so when I get a second AD, I would get 4 attacks? If so, would you allow a character to take two attacks with their first AD and a single attack with the second one?

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:26 am
by Bilgewriggler
I would have to revisit the wording of the rulebook, but I would tend to think that two-weapon fighting gives you one extra attack per round, not per action die. If your action dice are d20 + d16, then even with a pretty good agility, you're not going to get much mileage out of that second action die unless it's considered independent of the two-weapon fighting.

I suppose you might give the player a choice.

d20 (single-weapon fighting) + d16 (additional attack die)

(d16 + d16) (two-weapon fighting) + d16 (additional attack die)

(d16 + d16) (two-weapon fighting) + (d14 + d 14) (additional attack die, split for TWF)

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:44 am
by beermotor
You're forgetting the deed die, Bilgewriggler. Dual wielding on the secondary action die is perfectly viable (particularly as a warrior), because you'll have a d7 to go along with the d14 (stepped down to at least a d12 for dual wielding, assuming high agility). You can still hit a good many target ACs, and might be even more potent given the deeds you could be doing. Assuming a decent initiative result, which isn't a bad assumption because you're probably only dual wielding if you have a high agility, the 5th level warrior starts to look sort of like a Drizz't-like blender o' bladed death... except with deeds! E.g., called shots on first action dice, defensive deed on secondary action dice, rinse-repeat.

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:51 am
by cthulhudarren
No crits allowed though per RAW. Sure might hit alot though at high levels.

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:55 am
by beermotor
Dual wielding longswords, the lack of crits ain't gonna matter, I don't think. Well, I guess as you go up in level, the crits get better. So I guess you can just pretend the called shots are crits. :-)

Or go Full Conan and use a two-hander.

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:56 am
by beermotor
Also,


THIS CONVERSATION IS TOTALLY NOT MINMAXING. :oops:

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 12:25 pm
by cthulhudarren
beermotor wrote:Also,


THIS CONVERSATION IS TOTALLY NOT MINMAXING. :oops:
Yes it is. Which means my group would totally try it. I would not allow crits though, as you said as you go up in level crits get awesome.

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 11:17 am
by Bilgewriggler
I was half-forgetting the deed die and half-ignoring it because at higher levels you're probably fighting stuff with higher armor classes, so you need the bigger deed die to be able to hit.

Although of course not interested in min-maxing at all, I decided to make a spreadsheet to calculate the probabilities of hitting with TWF and without at various levels. Basically, the result was this: for an armor class that you can hit with a d16, you're always better off dual wielding. In other words, at 1st level, for AC 10-16, a warrior with a d3 deed die has a better chance of landing at least one blow if dual wielding than if fighting one-handed. And since you crit on a 16, you actually have a better chance of critting than if you're single-wielding.

Once you cross that AC 16 line, though, you basically never want to dual wield, as it absolutely kills your chance of hitting.

The basic pattern holds true at higher levels too, though I didn't factor into my calculations the line from the rules that says dual-wielding reduces your off-hand deed die as well.

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:39 am
by beermotor
Hey I'd be interested in seeing your spreadsheet. Can you post it?

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:11 am
by cthulhudarren
Bilgewriggler wrote:And since you crit on a 16, you actually have a better chance of critting than if you're single-wielding.
You do not crit on a 16 on a d16.

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:17 am
by GnomeBoy
cthulhudarren wrote:You do not crit on a 16 on a d16, unless you are a Halfling.
Fixed that for you. :wink:

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:36 am
by cthulhudarren
GnomeBoy wrote:
cthulhudarren wrote:You do not crit on a 16 on a d16, unless you are a Halfling.
Fixed that for you. :wink:
Yes! I was just trying to help discourage warriors from power gaming.

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:15 am
by Bilgewriggler
cthulhudarren wrote:
Bilgewriggler wrote:And since you crit on a 16, you actually have a better chance of critting than if you're single-wielding.
You do not crit on a 16 on a d16.
A 16 is not an auto-hit for non-halflings, but it is a crit if you hit.

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 10:31 am
by cthulhudarren
Bilgewriggler wrote:
cthulhudarren wrote:
Bilgewriggler wrote:And since you crit on a 16, you actually have a better chance of critting than if you're single-wielding.
You do not crit on a 16 on a d16.
A 16 is not an auto-hit for non-halflings, but it is a crit if you hit.
For halflings only. Otherwise you need a very high agility.

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:08 am
by Bilgewriggler
cthulhudarren wrote:
For halflings only. Otherwise you need a very high agility.
So we're both right! :)

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:34 pm
by cthulhudarren
Bilgewriggler wrote:
cthulhudarren wrote:
For halflings only. Otherwise you need a very high agility.
So we're both right! :)
Always!

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:22 am
by beermotor
Okay so minmax me this, bros.

Character with 17 Strength, 18 Agility. Very likely to choose Warrior at level 1, although Cleric or Wizard or Thief are all possibilities. Charmed House was his Lucky Roll, and he has a 13 Luck, so base AC is 14 (!). So the question is, to dual wield or not to dual wield... if he doesn't dual wield, it seems like a two-handed battle axe or two-handed sword is the best way to go, but maybe a pole arm of some kind wouldn't suck, for reach purposes?

Or, hold a javelin / spear in each hand... throw them both on round one, then whip out the two-handed sword off the back and melee... ?

I suppose there's another possibility: could be a ranged-weapon type guy. But I would think he'd want to throw stuff, versus shoot bows or crossbows, because of the nice Strength bonus.

So what's the best option for him? Also, what's got the most Appendix N style? (The latter question has me leaning away from dual wielding, frankly, and towards a two-handed sword.)

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 11:46 am
by cthulhudarren
beermotor wrote:Okay so minmax me this, bros.

Character with 17 Strength, 18 Agility. Very likely to choose Warrior at level 1, although Cleric or Wizard or Thief are all possibilities. Charmed House was his Lucky Roll, and he has a 13 Luck, so base AC is 14 (!). So the question is, to dual wield or not to dual wield... if he doesn't dual wield, it seems like a two-handed battle axe or two-handed sword is the best way to go, but maybe a pole arm of some kind wouldn't suck, for reach purposes?

Or, hold a javelin / spear in each hand... throw them both on round one, then whip out the two-handed sword off the back and melee... ?

I suppose there's another possibility: could be a ranged-weapon type guy. But I would think he'd want to throw stuff, versus shoot bows or crossbows, because of the nice Strength bonus.

So what's the best option for him? Also, what's got the most Appendix N style? (The latter question has me leaning away from dual wielding, frankly, and towards a two-handed sword.)
I'd check for loaded dice! I'd lean towards dual wielding with that agility. Or dual hand axes, so they can be thrown. Just not scimitars. Not ever.

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:08 pm
by Colin
beermotor wrote:Also, what's got the most Appendix N style? (The latter question has me leaning away from dual wielding, frankly, and towards a two-handed sword.)
Dual-wielding is very much part of Appendix N. Just look at Fritz Leiber's Lankhmar work for one example (both Fafhrd and Gray Mouser routinely dual-wielded, Fafhrd with a long sword and dagger or hand axe, Mouser with sabre and dagger). We just tend to have developed an allergy to it because of the hideous tales of a dual-scimitar-wielding dark elf who was constantly using, "his innate drow powers", and the number of godawful creatively-challenged copycat players that sprang up thereafter.

Colin

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 12:41 pm
by beermotor
But... but... CONAN.

So, theoretically, since w/ 18 Agility he'd crit as normal on the primary weapon, I guess there's no "game benefit" to be gained from wielding a two-hander. Unless he happens to come across a particularly badass one.

Longsword / Javelins looks like a great combo, actually. Maybe I should rename this character Achilles. 3 or 4 javelins in a quiver on his back, can be thrown at start of combat, then draw another for melee to use as offhand. I'm guessing javelin would qualify as a "light" weapon similar to a dagger/handaxe/shortsword?

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 1:30 pm
by Colin
I'd allow a javelin as a Light weapon (1d6 damage the same as a short sword).

Colin

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:10 pm
by Bilgewriggler
You're getting ahead of yourself. Based on my group's experiences with great fresh-rolled characters, that guy's going to die with 9 xp in the last scene of the funnel.

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:36 pm
by beermotor
Nah. We've got some level 1s already. He should survive to 1. After that is probably up in the air. He's definitely got a big dose of the paladin archetype. We'll see if he can measure up.

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:40 pm
by Raven_Crowking
beermotor wrote:Nah. We've got some level 1s already. He should survive to 1.
Famous last words! :lol:

I am certainly rooting for you, although the dice will always fall where they may..... :D

Re: Two Weapon Fighting

Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 8:01 pm
by TheNobleDrake
beermotor wrote:Okay so minmax me this, bros. <snip>
I think the answer is simple: carry as many weapons with different uses as the Judge will allow and use the one that is best for the situation:

Bunch of "mooks" - dual wield and take out 2 an action.
One big nasty - keep at range, you are more accurate and you don't want to let it take your super-dude away so easily.
Tricky terrain - probably a good time for that pole-arm.
Narrow cave - this is why you always carry a dagger or spear.
Under water - spears are great here too.
A horde of competent warrior types or beasts - and you pack a shield, too.