Thieves'/Halflings Luck and (again!) Mighty Deeds of Arms

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TheNobleDrake
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Re: Thieves'/Halflings Luck and (again!) Mighty Deeds of Arm

Post by TheNobleDrake » Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:31 am

I agree with ScrivenerB about halflings.

Not thieves though... my experience of the DCC thief is that they are nigh-invisible fighter-types that critical on every hit... and also happen to be lucky.

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Re: Thieves'/Halflings Luck and (again!) Mighty Deeds of Arm

Post by Skyscraper » Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:13 pm

On the qestion about the warrior's deed, could it be that the warrior can only try one deed per turn?

On the question of thieves and halflings, I wonder if the game expects that permanent depletion might not be frequent enough. I have no play experience yet. Although I guess this would still not balance the fact that others will be depleting their luck more quickly than thieves and halflings, unless the DM targets them more often with permament luck drain (cheap move, IMO).

So I think I would simply allow the thieve's and the halfling's luck to increase.
Maledict Brothbreath, level 4 warrior, STR 16 (+2) AGI 7 (-1) STA 12 PER 9 INT 10 LUCK 15 (+1), AC: 16 Refl: +1 Fort: +2 Will: +1; lawful; Armor of the Lion and Lily's Blade.

Brother Sufferus, level 4 cleric, STR 13 (+1) AGI 15 (+1) STA 11 PER 13 (+1) INT 10 LUCK 9, AC: 11 (13 if wounded, 15 if down to half hit points), Refl: +3 Fort: +2 Will: +3, chaotic, Robe of the Faith, Scourge of the Maimed One, Darts of Pain.

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Re: Thieves'/Halflings Luck and (again!) Mighty Deeds of Arm

Post by Bilgewriggler » Sat Jul 14, 2012 4:03 pm

I haven't played yet, but I would always apply any "end of adventure" luck bonuses upon completion of the adventure, and add it to the character's current luck score, which for thieves and halflings will most likely be less than their maximum because at the end of any given adventure, they've probably burned some luck and not yet slept to recover it. And the bonus would only affect current luck, not the permanent score. So once the thief/halfling burned enough luck to drop below their permanent score, daily recovery would only take them back up to the permanent score.
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Nurzual the Faceter – M Jwlr - Wiz - L
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Chalk 1pc, 20 gp Gem, Backpack, 10’ chain, 10 sheets parchment, Kith pouch, small hammer, ray-gun, Rope 50', 5gp 10sp 274 cp
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Re: Thieves'/Halflings Luck and (again!) Mighty Deeds of Arm

Post by beermotor » Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:59 am

bitflipr wrote:I've also assumed that initial rolled luck is the maximum luck attainable (other than receiving an enchantment that increases the maximum).
Turns out that's a good assumption, as it's right there on p.36. :-)

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bitflipr
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Re: Thieves'/Halflings Luck and (again!) Mighty Deeds of Arm

Post by bitflipr » Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:47 am

beermotor wrote:
bitflipr wrote:I've also assumed that initial rolled luck is the maximum luck attainable (other than receiving an enchantment that increases the maximum).
Turns out that's a good assumption, as it's right there on p.36. :-)
Nice catch. With most of these rules its a matter of "I know I've read it somewhere...". It's nice having a community to point these things out.

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Re: Thieves'/Halflings Luck and (again!) Mighty Deeds of Arm

Post by Raven_Crowking » Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:53 am

bitflipr wrote:
beermotor wrote:
bitflipr wrote:I've also assumed that initial rolled luck is the maximum luck attainable (other than receiving an enchantment that increases the maximum).
Turns out that's a good assumption, as it's right there on p.36. :-)
Nice catch. With most of these rules its a matter of "I know I've read it somewhere...". It's nice having a community to point these things out.
Yes, very good to note.
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Re: Thieves'/Halflings Luck and (again!) Mighty Deeds of Arm

Post by Bhodili » Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:50 am

The way we have been playing it is that the 18 is a hard cap on any stat, with the exception of one house rule that won't apply in anoyone else's game. However when I hand out luck bonuses at the end of adventures thieves and halflings apply that bonus to already spent luck first, and only afterwards can raise their luck score. For instance a thief has a luck of 14. Over the course of an adventure that thief burns 2 luck. At the end I hand out 3 luck points to the survivors, the thief first regains the two points they spent, then their luck score increases to a 15. This is one way to stop my theives from frontloading all their luck.

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bitflipr
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Re: Thieves'/Halflings Luck and (again!) Mighty Deeds of Arm

Post by bitflipr » Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:26 pm

DCC does provide scenarios where abilities go beyond 18. A good example of this is the Strength spell on page 198 of the rule book - Something to keep in mind. I do think characters should track both the temporary and permanent value of each stat. I would rule luck burning and gaining to be temporary value changes in most cases.

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Re: Thieves'/Halflings Luck and (again!) Mighty Deeds of Arm

Post by micahmoore » Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:38 pm

Yea its pretty clear that luck is only "restored"
For non theives and halflings the only way to get their luck restored is through things on
page 361.

So end of the adventure luck refreshes don't add any extra max luck for anyone...not even halflings/theives,
I think its just a way of letting other classes refresh their luck.
Where theives/halflings can just sleep it off.

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Re: Thieves'/Halflings Luck and (again!) Mighty Deeds of Arm

Post by beermotor » Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:42 pm

BUT, and it's a big but, you can "quest" for stat increases. Wanna be lucky? Go collect three leprechaun ears, dry them beneath the midsummer sun, then crush and powder them into dust, sprinkle into an iron bracelet as it's being poured into the mold. Voila, +1 luck.

And Gods help you if you lose the bracelet. Or if you're an elf.

:-)

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Re: Thieves'/Halflings Luck and (again!) Mighty Deeds of Arm

Post by Skyscraper » Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:33 am

micahmoore wrote:Yea its pretty clear that luck is only "restored"
For non theives and halflings the only way to get their luck restored is through things on
page 361.

So end of the adventure luck refreshes don't add any extra max luck for anyone...not even halflings/theives,
I think its just a way of letting other classes refresh their luck.
Where theives/halflings can just sleep it off.
Is that right? I was under the impression that, from what I recall from reading the book:
  • several situations might lead to permanent luck loss
  • all luck expended by non-thieves and non-halflings is permanent
  • luck obtained at the end of an adventure is a permanent increase of the stat
  • no rule says that luck may not increase above the initial stat
  • the exception to the last statement is in the thieve's description, where it says that luck may not increase beyond the initial value, but that rule is stated in the context of the thieve being able to recuperate luck at the rate of 1 point per night per level. It was not my understanding that this statement, given its inclusion in one specific class' description, in one specific rule context (thieves expending luck), was to be taken for all classes, in all circumstances.
Maledict Brothbreath, level 4 warrior, STR 16 (+2) AGI 7 (-1) STA 12 PER 9 INT 10 LUCK 15 (+1), AC: 16 Refl: +1 Fort: +2 Will: +1; lawful; Armor of the Lion and Lily's Blade.

Brother Sufferus, level 4 cleric, STR 13 (+1) AGI 15 (+1) STA 11 PER 13 (+1) INT 10 LUCK 9, AC: 11 (13 if wounded, 15 if down to half hit points), Refl: +3 Fort: +2 Will: +3, chaotic, Robe of the Faith, Scourge of the Maimed One, Darts of Pain.

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Re: Thieves'/Halflings Luck and (again!) Mighty Deeds of Arm

Post by Pesky » Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:36 am

Skyscraper wrote:
Is that right? I was under the impression that, from what I recall from reading the book:
  • several situations might lead to permanent luck loss
  • all luck expended by non-thieves and non-halflings is permanent
  • luck obtained at the end of an adventure is a permanent increase of the stat
  • no rule says that luck may not increase above the initial stat
  • the exception to the last statement is in the thieve's description, where it says that luck may not increase beyond the initial value, but that rule is stated in the context of the thieve being able to recuperate luck at the rate of 1 point per night per level. It was not my understanding that this statement, given its inclusion in one specific class' description, in one specific rule context (thieves expending luck), was to be taken for all classes, in all circumstances.

This is my understanding as well (for whatever that is worth). Moreover, the text on pg 361 doesn't guarantee any luck being restored at the end of an adventure. The luck can increase from +1 to +3 depedending on a character's actions.

I like the idea of a character being able to play his/her alignment so well that luck can rise above the initial stat (although the lucky roll bonus does not), because then that character will surely attract the machinations of powerful forces that oppose his/her alignment. Those forces will do all they can to stymie that character and make him/her unluckier :twisted:
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Re: Thieves'/Halflings Luck and (again!) Mighty Deeds of Arm

Post by Skyscraper » Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:56 am

Pesky wrote: I like the idea of a character being able to play his/her alignment so well that luck can rise above the initial stat (although the lucky roll bonus does not), because then that character will surely attract the machinations of powerful forces that oppose his/her alignment. Those forces will do all they can to stymie that character and make him/her unluckier :twisted:
This is a very interesting thought.
Maledict Brothbreath, level 4 warrior, STR 16 (+2) AGI 7 (-1) STA 12 PER 9 INT 10 LUCK 15 (+1), AC: 16 Refl: +1 Fort: +2 Will: +1; lawful; Armor of the Lion and Lily's Blade.

Brother Sufferus, level 4 cleric, STR 13 (+1) AGI 15 (+1) STA 11 PER 13 (+1) INT 10 LUCK 9, AC: 11 (13 if wounded, 15 if down to half hit points), Refl: +3 Fort: +2 Will: +3, chaotic, Robe of the Faith, Scourge of the Maimed One, Darts of Pain.

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Re: Thieves'/Halflings Luck and (again!) Mighty Deeds of Arm

Post by phg » Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:59 pm

Skyscraper wrote:
  • several situations might lead to permanent luck loss
  • all luck expended by non-thieves and non-halflings is permanent
  • luck obtained at the end of an adventure is a permanent increase of the stat
  • no rule says that luck may not increase above the initial stat
  • the exception to the last statement is in the thieve's description, where it says that luck may not increase beyond the initial value, but that rule is stated in the context of the thieve being able to recuperate luck at the rate of 1 point per night per level. It was not my understanding that this statement, given its inclusion in one specific class' description, in one specific rule context (thieves expending luck), was to be taken for all classes, in all circumstances.
That's my read as well.

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Re: Thieves'/Halflings Luck and (again!) Mighty Deeds of Arm

Post by d(sqrt(-1)) » Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:21 am

Skyscraper wrote:Is that right? I was under the impression that, from what I recall from reading the book:
  • several situations might lead to permanent luck loss
  • all luck expended by non-thieves and non-halflings is permanent
  • luck obtained at the end of an adventure is a permanent increase of the stat
  • no rule says that luck may not increase above the initial stat
  • the exception to the last statement is in the thieve's description, where it says that luck may not increase beyond the initial value, but that rule is stated in the context of the thieve being able to recuperate luck at the rate of 1 point per night per level. It was not my understanding that this statement, given its inclusion in one specific class' description, in one specific rule context (thieves expending luck), was to be taken for all classes, in all circumstances.

Exactly, hence my question. Excellent summary, BTW.

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Re: Thieves'/Halflings Luck and (again!) Mighty Deeds of Arm

Post by Dark Lord » Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:38 pm

beermotor wrote:I would never let a stat go above 18. Much like levels, with 10th representing a legendary hero, an 18 in a stat is pretty much the pinnacle of whatever your race's abilities are in that stat. (Also, I think it deserves a little discussion that the 3-18 bell curve scale for stats differs between races, for example an 18 str halfling is not as absolutely strong as, say, a 15 strength dwarf, or a 14 strength human. Although he still gets the same bonuses, I guess in homage to Bruce Lee.)
But that's only necessary if you view Strength in one narrow view. It doesn't have to be, and that's a byproduct of later editions of D&D. Strength can mean several things other than your raw ability to bench press. A halfling with a ST 18 may just have a talent for using leverage, or knows how to strike harder. Look, Mike Tyson in his prime was strong, but he couldn't lift the same amount of weight as an Olympic weightlifter. And that weightlifter may be able to pick up huge amounts of weight, but he can't hit as hard as a boxer.

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Re: Thieves'/Halflings Luck and (again!) Mighty Deeds of Arm

Post by Gameogre » Sun Jan 13, 2013 2:51 pm

For me a halfing with a 18 can lift just as much as a ogre with a 18.

At some point I just shrug and smile and say It's a Game. It doesn't have to make sense or be realistic.

It's a Game.

Do what works for you.

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